Steel ballistic plate and carrier

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Would you pay 500$ for a pair of level III steel ballistic plates and a plate carrier?

Yes, it's a fair price!
2
4%
Yes, but I would use it in conjunction with soft body armor!
5
9%
No, it's too expensive!
24
44%
No, I wouldn't spend money on body armor.
1
2%
No, I would choose another type of body armor.
21
38%
None of the above.
2
4%
 
Total votes: 55

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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:22 pm

This all started because two people mentioned despalling a steel vest, one which (iirc) was not standalone rated, meaning it required a kevlar backing or spall bag to keep stop spall injuries. It seems as though we're missing some of the original posts. Like 007 seven, spatter is not spall, and is much less lethal.

Razor: out issued plates are ceramic, and don't suffer from spatter. While there is no such thing as an NIJ multihit plate, caremics do a better job, especially with a kevlar backer to absorb some of the impact of getting shot by a big bullet.
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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by zombiegristle » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:49 am

Doc Torr wrote:This all started because two people mentioned despalling a steel vest, one which (iirc) was not standalone rated, meaning it required a kevlar backing or spall bag to keep stop spall injuries. It seems as though we're missing some of the original posts. Like 007 seven, spatter is not spall, and is much less lethal.

Razor: out issued plates are ceramic, and don't suffer from spatter. While there is no such thing as an NIJ multihit plate, caremics do a better job, especially with a kevlar backer to absorb some of the impact of getting shot by a big bullet.
Except for NIJ level III, which specifies survivability of six strikes from .308 147gr. FMJ ammunition at 2,750fps. :?
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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by IANMCDEVITT » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:13 am

I have and use steel plates. I have and use AR500 targets from a place I used to train a lot at. The targets do get a lot of richochet (sp?). I know that's because they are pitted from a lot of rifle fire. Once the steel is pitted it no longer will direct the rounds into the ground...........I guess it's time to replace the targets because I just lost a windshield and a pair of underwear the other day shooting with my son in law.... :lol:

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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:26 am

zombiegristle wrote:
Doc Torr wrote:This all started because two people mentioned despalling a steel vest, one which (iirc) was not standalone rated, meaning it required a kevlar backing or spall bag to keep stop spall injuries. It seems as though we're missing some of the original posts. Like 007 seven, spatter is not spall, and is much less lethal.

Razor: out issued plates are ceramic, and don't suffer from spatter. While there is no such thing as an NIJ multihit plate, caremics do a better job, especially with a kevlar backer to absorb some of the impact of getting shot by a big bullet.
Except for NIJ level III, which specifies survivability of six strikes from .308 147gr. FMJ ammunition at 2,750fps. :?
Source? A "multihit" rating is not issued, only a pass/fail based on the above, nor is there a survivability requirement. The NIJ standard is that there shall be no perforations, only three of those rounds must impact within the same 4" circle and within 2" of each other, and that the backface shall deform less than 44mm for one shot. No shot may land within the deformation of another shot. No standard is given for spall.

Again, there is no multihit rated plate, only NIJ pass/fail, and ceramic plates do a better job at catching bullets without the risks of spatter/backface deformation/spall. Maybe you should take a few minutes to calm down instead of trying to find fault with everything I post in here.
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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by MaconCJ7 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:40 am

IANMCDEVITT wrote:I have and use steel plates. I have and use AR500 targets from a place I used to train a lot at. The targets do get a lot of richochet (sp?). I know that's because they are pitted from a lot of rifle fire. Once the steel is pitted it no longer will direct the rounds into the ground...........I guess it's time to replace the targets because I just lost a windshield and a pair of underwear the other day shooting with my son in law.... :lol:

I don't know if it's right or not, but we would fill our metal targets back in with the welder. I have no idea how that had changed the characteristics of the metal, but it kept going ding when we hit it, and we kept filling back in. There's even a few pieces of tungsten that have been welded into place. .30-06 AP will not go through 1" plate steel at 100m. The tip will poke out the back, but it won't punch through. The plate never cracked, and the bullets kept leaving divots.
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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by zombiegristle » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:55 am

I have no agenda to find fault with you, I just try to correct what I perceive as misinformation regardless of the source. Don't take it so personally, you're far from the first person on this forum I've argued with.

To answer your request for source:
NIJ Standard 0101.06, Ballistic Resistance of Body Armor wrote: 7.8.8 P-BFS Performance Requirements
Each test panel must withstand the appropriate number of fair hits and may not
experience any perforations. Any complete perforation by a fair hit constitutes a failure. Fair hit
is as defined in section 7.6.

2.4 Type III (Rifles)
Type III hard armor or plate inserts shall be tested in a conditioned state with 7.62 mm
FMJ, steel jacketed bullets (U.S. Military designation M80) with a specified mass of 9.6 g (147
gr) and a velocity of 847 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (2780 ft/s ± 30 ft/s).

7.8.1 Shot Location Marking
All armor models submitted for compliance testing will undergo P-BFS testing using the
threat rounds specified in section 2 and table 4. These impact tests measure three BFS indentions
and demonstrate the armor’s resistance to perforation. This test series requires the use of a
plastically deforming witness media (clay backing material) held in direct contact with the back
surface of the armor panel. This configuration is used to capture and measure the BFS depression
produced in the backing material during nonperforating threat round impacts.

Hard Armors and Plate Inserts: All hard armors and plate inserts shall be tested with
the appropriate number of shots as defined in section 4.1.2. The shots shall be placed on the
panel in any pattern that meets the shot-to-edge and shot-to-shot spacing requirements.

7.6 Fair Hit Requirements for All Ballistic Tests
A test shot shall be considered a fair hit if it impacts the armor panel at an angle of
incidence no greater than ± 5° from the intended angle of incidence, no closer to the edge of the
ballistic panel than the minimum shot-to-edge distance, and no closer to a prior hit than the
minimum shot-to-shot distance.

In addition, for a P-BFS test shot to be considered a fair hit, it must meet the impact
location requirements of section 7.8.1, and the measured velocity must either: (1) be within ± 9.1
m/s (30 ft/s) of the reference velocity for the specified bullet; (2) be less than the minimum
velocity and produce a perforation or an excessive BFS; or (3) be greater than the maximum
velocity and not produce a perforation or an excessive BFS.

7.6.1 Minimum Shot-to-Edge Distance
The armor manufacturer shall define the acceptable minimum shot-to-edge distance for
each armor model and each threat that will be tested against the armor. For armor types subjected
to a single threat and for the lighter weight threat round when two threats are specified, the
minimum shot-to-edge distance shall not be greater than 51 mm (2.0 in). For the heavier threat
round when two threats are specified, the minimum shot-to-edge distance shall not be greater
than 76 mm (3.0 in). Table 4 indicates which rounds are lighter weight and heavier weight.

7.6.2 Minimum Shot-to-Shot Distance
The minimum shot-to-shot distance shall be 51 mm (2.0 in).
This distance may be decreased at the request of the armor manufacturer.

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I pasted shit all out of order, but whatever. The PDF can be downloaded below. I read this as meaning that for a plate to pass level III certification, the test samples are required to stop six hits with the aforementioned spacing, i.e. "multihit" - any plate that passes certification can be expected to stop six hits, as they reliably did so as part of the requirements during the testing protocol. Level IV is specified as "1 to 6" stops, since those samples are required to have the same total number of shots both overall and per sample, so more than 1 stop is possible and acceptable but less than 1 is not ("single-hit" for a consumer, since the rating doesn't specify how many hits were stopped so one level IV plate might stop all six where another might only stop 1). There is obviously a shitload more to the document, but I don't remember anything that contradicts this.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf
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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by Razor » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:00 pm

So basically y'all got all worked up over dumb shit?
Doc Torr wrote:
Razor: out issued plates are ceramic, and don't suffer from spatter. While there is no such thing as an NIJ multihit plate, caremics do a better job, especially with a kevlar backer to absorb some of the impact of getting shot by a big bullet.
That's what I thought. This shit was flying in the face of every thing I'd been told/taught but I figured it was due to the whole steel plate thing and not just all plates in general which is why I asked for clarification. With that being said the Army plates I was issued this last deployment (11-12 Afghanistan) did have some type of some thing on the front face of the actual plate it's self which it thought was interesting. It's some type of mushy cell like thing under the OD green fabric that goes around the whole plate.
Absit invidia.

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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:03 pm

Razor wrote:
Doc Torr wrote:
Razor: out issued plates are ceramic, and don't suffer from spatter. While there is no such thing as an NIJ multihit plate, caremics do a better job, especially with a kevlar backer to absorb some of the impact of getting shot by a big bullet.
That's what I thought. This shit was flying in the face of every thing I'd been told/taught but I figured it was due to the whole steel plate thing and not just all plates in general which is why I asked for clarification. With that being said the Army plates I was issued this last deployment (11-12 Afghanistan) did have some type of some thing on the front face of the actual plate it's self which it thought was interesting. It's some type of mushy cell like thing under the OD green fabric that goes around the whole plate.
Our plates are a sandwich composite menagerie of strange space shit from pluto. They are LVl IV though.
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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by Chris@MTCT » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:08 pm

Anyone ever see the Blue training only plates?

Seen that shit at CIF one time, I laughed my ass off at that LT when he drew them.
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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by Razor » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:11 pm

Doc Torr wrote: Our plates are a sandwich composite menagerie of strange space shit from pluto. They are LVl IV though.
So magic. Got it.
gravediggerfour wrote:Anyone ever see the Blue training only plates?

Seen that shit at CIF one time, I laughed my ass off at that LT when he drew them.
My unit used to make us draw those when they thought we would be a testing BDE. :( I was so happy to turn them in for combat plates (Like training ones but manlier and made to stop bullets and not to just be heavy) after only a year.
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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by Mr.Pliskin » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:16 am

I just had to chime in and say that, If you are using AR500 steel armor plates, Zombiegristle is 100% correct. I bought a few sets of curved plates from TTM (best price out there) I took one to the range, placed it in a cardboard box (we brought a few) and shot it with 223. xm193, m885, surplus 308, wolf 762x39. ALL of the rounds within about 2 shots cut the box in half from splatter/spall whatever you want to call it. Nothing indicated you need soft armor on the back of the armor as the back of the cardboard went completely unscathed. None of the rounds penetrated even though we shot about 100+ rounds at the steel, all though the 20 or so rounds of 308 was denting it a little bit at 50 yards.

If your talking about ANY other type of armor, fine, I havent nor will I probably ever have the funds to "test" any of it. But as far as AR500 thats what happens.

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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:45 am

Mr.Pliskin wrote:I just had to chime in and say that, If you are using AR500 steel armor plates, Zombiegristle is 100% correct. I bought a few sets of curved plates from TTM (best price out there) I took one to the range, placed it in a cardboard box (we brought a few) and shot it with 223. xm193, m885, surplus 308, wolf 762x39. ALL of the rounds within about 2 shots cut the box in half from splatter/spall whatever you want to call it. Nothing indicated you need soft armor on the back of the armor as the back of the cardboard went completely unscathed. None of the rounds penetrated even though we shot about 100+ rounds at the steel, all though the 20 or so rounds of 308 was denting it a little bit at 50 yards.

If your talking about ANY other type of armor, fine, I havent nor will I probably ever have the funds to "test" any of it. But as far as AR500 thats what happens.
What thickness were the plates?
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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by TDW586 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:09 pm

Mr.Pliskin wrote:I just had to chime in and say that, If you are using AR500 steel armor plates, Zombiegristle is 100% correct. I bought a few sets of curved plates from TTM (best price out there) I took one to the range, placed it in a cardboard box (we brought a few) and shot it with 223. xm193, m885, surplus 308, wolf 762x39. ALL of the rounds within about 2 shots cut the box in half from splatter/spall whatever you want to call it. Nothing indicated you need soft armor on the back of the armor as the back of the cardboard went completely unscathed. None of the rounds penetrated even though we shot about 100+ rounds at the steel, all though the 20 or so rounds of 308 was denting it a little bit at 50 yards.

If your talking about ANY other type of armor, fine, I havent nor will I probably ever have the funds to "test" any of it. But as far as AR500 thats what happens.

So, the testimony of some guy on the internet trumps the industry standard. Got it.

I give up.
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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by Mr.Pliskin » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:55 pm

Doc Torr wrote: What thickness were the plates?
1/4 inch
TDW586 wrote:

So, the testimony of some guy on the internet trumps the industry standard. Got it.

I give up.
Industry standard? I own and have shot the EXACT plates he was referencing. Do you have any idea what were even talking about here? And as far as "guy on the Internet" credibility were on level playing fields here.

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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by TDW586 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:05 pm

Good for you. I've never seen a credible agency that uses steel plates without soft armor backing. There is a reason for this, whether you saw it when you went out and popped some rounds off at them or not.
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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by zombiegristle » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:24 pm

What agencies issue 1/4" AR500 standalone rifle plates?
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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by TDW586 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:19 pm

You win, this particular steel plate is magical and does not behave like every other steel plate on the market.

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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by zombiegristle » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:35 am

TDW586 wrote:You win, this particular steel plate is magical and does not behave like every other steel plate on the market.

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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by Mr.Pliskin » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:47 am

TDW586 wrote:You win, this particular steel plate is magical and does not behave like every other steel plate on the market.

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Just out of curiosity how many steel plates have you seen tested? What have the results been? What brands, thickness and brinell hardness?

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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by TDW586 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:51 am

I'm not playing this game with you, dude. You win. Enjoy your steel plates, they're awesome.

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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by doc savage » Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:59 am

I did a few hours worth of reading because this thread devolved into an arguement, and I was curious as to what line of thought was correct. Not trying to fan the flames, but from what I read, both sides are arguing two different products. APPLES AND ORANGES>

Both sides are right, and both sides are wrong. Steel plates and ceramic plates were originally designed to go OVER a layer of ballistic fabric. The thought was to shatter the incoming round, and the vest below stops spall and penetrating fragments, if any. ( that has been the industry standard ...forever...). Some earlier ceramic plates were designed to actually shatter when hit to dissipate impact energy, and the vest underneath was absolutely vital. (That concept continued on in the form of today's cheap trauma-plates). Even if a round is shattered/deflected/stopped cold, Steel plates can spall , and the vest was vital underneath. Nothing is perfect, and the vest is a back-up to the plate.

Newer Stand-alone plates CAN be worn without soft armor under it, and are often coated in an antispall layer of aramid wrap right from the factory. They are intended to be so surface-hardened that nothing will pierce them. Stores like bulletproofme.com sell anti spatter soft armor plates to go OVER them, and soft armor backers to go UNDER them as well. But they can be worn without soft armor at all, in a bare bones no-one-recommends-it-only-in-an-emergency manner. You have nothing to back you up if it fails....and, the soft armor is worn under it to disperse some of the punishment your soft pink body is going to be hammered with through the plate. Those non-penetrating dents break bones.

Spall DOES happen, though not as often as you think. Spatter DOES happen, though not as much as you think. ( .mil protects from this with neck and groin panels, / .civ protects from this with an over layer of anti-spatter soft armor).... In an ideal world, you'd be best served wearing soft armor, with a plate, and a soft anti-spatter armor on top of it. No one in hell will be doing that anytime soon, due to the unbearable weight.

Two different types of armor technology, and two different applications.

Why can't we all just get along?

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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by LittleQuick » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:58 pm

doc savage wrote:I did a few hours worth of reading because this thread devolved into an arguement, and I was curious as to what line of thought was correct. Not trying to fan the flames, but from what I read, both sides are arguing two different products. APPLES AND ORANGES>

Both sides are right, and both sides are wrong. Steel plates and ceramic plates were originally designed to go OVER a layer of ballistic fabric. The thought was to shatter the incoming round, and the vest below stops spall and penetrating fragments, if any. ( that has been the industry standard ...forever...). Some earlier ceramic plates were designed to actually shatter when hit to dissipate impact energy, and the vest underneath was absolutely vital. (That concept continued on in the form of today's cheap trauma-plates). Even if a round is shattered/deflected/stopped cold, Steel plates can spall , and the vest was vital underneath. Nothing is perfect, and the vest is a back-up to the plate.

Newer Stand-alone plates CAN be worn without soft armor under it, and are often coated in an antispall layer of aramid wrap right from the factory. They are intended to be so surface-hardened that nothing will pierce them. Stores like bulletproofme.com sell anti spatter soft armor plates to go OVER them, and soft armor backers to go UNDER them as well. But they can be worn without soft armor at all, in a bare bones no-one-recommends-it-only-in-an-emergency manner. You have nothing to back you up if it fails....and, the soft armor is worn under it to disperse some of the punishment your soft pink body is going to be hammered with through the plate. Those non-penetrating dents break bones.

Spall DOES happen, though not as often as you think. Spatter DOES happen, though not as much as you think. ( .mil protects from this with neck and groin panels, / .civ protects from this with an over layer of anti-spatter soft armor).... In an ideal world, you'd be best served wearing soft armor, with a plate, and a soft anti-spatter armor on top of it. No one in hell will be doing that anytime soon, due to the unbearable weight.

Two different types of armor technology, and two different applications.

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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by BeezCombatSystems » Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:03 am

The popularity of steel plates are make their way back. We have designed a plate carrier that will fit these smaller and thinner plates like a glove. The PC was designed to hold steel plates that have some type of coated covering (Rhino Liner) to help reduce splatter. We also added loop velcro strips on the inside so a soft armor backer could be added for Spall if not used with softarmor.

We are open to suggestions and ideas to improve the PC for steel plates.

Here is a link to our blog about the PC:
http://blog.beezcombatsystems.com/plate ... lates.html

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Re: Steel ballistic plate and carrier

Post by ashwednesday » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:32 pm

TDW586 wrote: Since steel plates can be had for 120 dollars or so, and you can get a top tier plate carrier for 90 bucks here, 500 seems like too much.
Which model is $90?
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