Weapons belt - **Completed**

[Crimson Phoenix]

I hate to admit this is a bit off topic, but as someone who's only ever really shot from a bench or for fun, what's the best way to go about recovering dropped mags for later reloading "in real life"? Or is that even a concern? I guess dropping it into an open pouch or a pocket works, but that's a lot of fumbling around too when you have to worry about inserting a live mag and so on. I now dump pouches have already come up, but I'm also wondering about the mechanics of grab fresh mag, release spent mag, insert fresh mag, pocket spent mag, slap the bolt return or catch, and get back into business.

[Phoenix David]

In real life if I have to change magazines because it runs dry I am dropping it, the police will pick it up as evidence later. If it is a partial magazine and I am making a tactical reload I am going to secure that magazine on my person in case I need it later.

In training I train like it's real life so the same rules apply, however some IDPA stages you have to retain the magazine and a dump pouch is simpler then a pocket. You can also keep other items in a dump pouch that you don't have a pouch for, like say shotgun shells, a water bottle, used brass, etc..

[Kutter_0311]

I hate to admit this is a bit off topic, but as someone who's only ever really shot from a bench or for fun, what's the best way to go about recovering dropped mags for later reloading "in real life"? Or is that even a concern? I guess dropping it into an open pouch or a pocket works, but that's a lot of fumbling around too when you have to worry about inserting a live mag and so on. I now dump pouches have already come up, but I'm also wondering about the mechanics of grab fresh mag, release spent mag, insert fresh mag, pocket spent mag, slap the bolt return or catch, and get back into business.

Situation dictates, but training makes what you want to happen happen faster and smoother...

[KnightoftheRoc]

I hate to admit this is a bit off topic, but as someone who's only ever really shot from a bench or for fun, what's the best way to go about recovering dropped mags for later reloading "in real life"? Or is that even a concern? I guess dropping it into an open pouch or a pocket works, but that's a lot of fumbling around too when you have to worry about inserting a live mag and so on. I now dump pouches have already come up, but I'm also wondering about the mechanics of grab fresh mag, release spent mag, insert fresh mag, pocket spent mag, slap the bolt return or catch, and get back into business.

I haven't shot an M16/AR15 in nearly 30 years, but, if memory serves, I used to slip the empty mag between my pinky and ring fingers to retain it as I used the rest of my hand to slap the new mag in place. It took some practice, but Unky Sam provided plenty of opportunities for it. Also, if you try to grab a FULL mag this way, you are going to drop it, and be left holding either nothing, or an empty mag, and neither of those is going to do you any good. Not exactly positive how I used to do it, and I dont have anything with a similar magazine size to check with, but I remember holding both mags in one hand, and it involved rolling my wrist to swap them out. Like I said, it's been nearly 30 years.
We didn't have any of these new-fangled, fancy-pants drop pouches, either- you stuffed the empty in your front pocket and kept going to your next cover. Once you had a spot to stay in for more 30 seconds, you transferred mags to outside pouches, and re-stocked inside pouches (closest to your centerline), so your "go-to spot" remained the same for full mags. Also, if you avoid going all "A-Team", and stick to semi auto firing, the mags you have tend to last a LOT longer.
I'm betting someone like DavePAL could give you more up to date info, but from what I've seen since I was handed one, the AR platform hasn't changed much, except for the addition of the 3 round burst on the M4. When I start adding to the weapons stock, I'll be getting an AR, because I'm familiar with it, but I'll also be getting an AK- these two seem to be the most popular and most common, so ammo and parts will likely be available in the PAW, where my BAR-II deer rifle probably isn't going to be so well supported. I think I may look into getting something in 7.62 as well, but I haven't got any leanings toward anything for sure yet.

[Kutter_0311]

I hate to admit this is a bit off topic, but as someone who's only ever really shot from a bench or for fun, what's the best way to go about recovering dropped mags for later reloading "in real life"? Or is that even a concern? I guess dropping it into an open pouch or a pocket works, but that's a lot of fumbling around too when you have to worry about inserting a live mag and so on. I now dump pouches have already come up, but I'm also wondering about the mechanics of grab fresh mag, release spent mag, insert fresh mag, pocket spent mag, slap the bolt return or catch, and get back into business.

I haven't shot an M16/AR15 in nearly 30 years, but, if memory serves, I used to slip the empty mag between my pinky and ring fingers to retain it as I used the rest of my hand to slap the new mag in place. It took some practice, but Unky Sam provided plenty of opportunities for it. Also, if you try to grab a FULL mag this way, you are going to drop it, and be left holding either nothing, or an empty mag, and neither of those is going to do you any good. Not exactly positive how I used to do it, and I dont have anything with a similar magazine size to check with, but I remember holding both mags in one hand, and it involved rolling my wrist to swap them out. Like I said, it's been nearly 30 years.

I usually grab the bottom of the mag flat between my thumb and hand(like holding a sandwich), with most of the pressure between my thumb and pointer finger, bring the mag up between my body and the weapon. At this point, the 3 lower fingers reach around the bottom of the mag that's in the weapon, and squeeze it against the outside of the pointer finger(like holding 2 sandwiches in one hand), holding the mags parallel on either side of the pointer finger. Trigger finger hits the mag release, and both mags move down with hand, fresh mag replaces old mag, tug to make sure it's locked in. Bonus points for doing this before the bolt locks open on an empty chamber. Otherwise, empty mag folds down inside wrist with fingers, hand moves under rifle and bumps bolt release. Hand then shoves empty mag in cargo pocket/cammie blouse/LBV/SAW pouch/dump pouch/whatever as you continue to engage.

[Crimson Phoenix]

I'm feeling squeamish about the AR platform already since I'm, as a cadet officer of mine once told me, born wrong-handed.

[Kutter_0311]

You can make it work, and easier on the AR than some other weapons.

But you'll have to ask a lefty, mine only works for nose picking and elbow strikes...

[KnightoftheRoc]

I'm feeling squeamish about the AR platform already since I'm, as a cadet officer of mine once told me, born wrong-handed.

I'm not a lefty, but as I recall, the only change needed to the M16 (and, I would assume, any other AR platform) is the addition of a brass deflector, so you don't get shiny tubes of hot metal flying up a nostril or something. Keep in mind, my info is circa 1980.

[suhsjake]

The Army will teach you the way it wants you to shoot... just be prepared to start shooting right handed. The only left handed trainee in my OSUT course learned quickly how to shoot right handed from a DS who was also a leftie.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Can't qualify on medical to go into the service at this point. Already lost my chance as a freshman Cadet. Having astigmatism in my right eye only and being left handed and left eye dominant don't help the matter of needing to suck it up and shoot right handed like everyone else in the platoon.

[Phoenix David]

OK, I finally got everything in

So this is what I got from left to right

Double pistol mag pouch
Triple M4 w/pistol mag pouch
Maxpedition Rollypoly MM Dump Pouch
Multi-tool pouch
FAK
Blade-Tech Drop&Offset SRloop holster
Springfield Armory XDM .45ACP

Weight empty: 4.2 lbs
Pistol config - XDM .45 w/light and 6 mags: 11 lbs
Rifle config - 3x30rd PMags: 7.4 lbs
Pistol & Rifle config: 14.2 lbs
3 gun config - Pistol & Rifle + 25 round shotgun ammo: 16.6 lbs

[Regular Guy]

Looks very practical, I like it. Just a question, why no medi?

[Phoenix David]

Not sure if I understand, First Aid Kit is next to holster.

[Regular Guy]

Oh, my bad, Captain Oblivious missed that FAK.

[Phoenix David]

I'm not sure if it's to heavy, guess I'll have to do some real world testing.

[Makarov]

Nice setup. Guess you're going to need the suspenders with all that weight.

Funny thing with the battlebelt;
The fighting gear has now gone a "full circle", and we're now back to carrying gear like they did during WW1, as just a belt.

WW1:


In the Norwegian army/homeguard(up until the middle of 2000) we used equipment that had it's ancestry from US WW2 gear. Then it was standard vests, then came the customizable vests, and now most of the serious guys use battlebelts/chestrigs/platecarriers.

Myself I use an old US pistol belt with a Blackhawk padding as a battlebelt, 2 AR and 2 pistol magazines plus a dump pouch and gunholster.
(2nd line gear is a S.O.Tech chestrig that I got for cheap from a dealer friend)

[Jeriah]

I hate to admit this is a bit off topic, but as someone who's only ever really shot from a bench or for fun, what's the best way to go about recovering dropped mags for later reloading "in real life"? Or is that even a concern? I guess dropping it into an open pouch or a pocket works, but that's a lot of fumbling around too when you have to worry about inserting a live mag and so on. I now dump pouches have already come up, but I'm also wondering about the mechanics of grab fresh mag, release spent mag, insert fresh mag, pocket spent mag, slap the bolt return or catch, and get back into business.

I am only just now beginning to do any kind of practical training, but my plan is this:

If I am reloading because I am still engaging a threat, I want my next shot to be as fast as possible. I will shoot my weapon empty because there's no way I'm going to get shot while reloading with a round in my chamber, when that last round could have taken out the threat. My slide may or may not lock back; my thumbs-forward grip (on my pistol) tends to keep it from doing so. I may be able to solve this by practice or training, but that's the situation now: My weapon will most likely be empty, and if it's my pistol, the slide may or may not be locked back. If it's my AR, the bolt should be locked to the rear.

Assuming we're talking pistol, this is what I do: first, get behind cover if possible, or keep moving if there is no cover. Bring the weapon back to the "work area" in front of my chest. Hit the mag release, dropping the mag to the deck. With my support hand, reach down to the left side of my belt and draw the left-most magazine. The magazine will be bullets forward in the pouch. I swing it up into the magwell of the pistol and tap/slap/press/push the baseplate firmly, so it seats solidly. I then reach over the top of my weapon and pull the slide to the rear with my support hand while pushing forward with my firing hand. I then continue to engage the threat until it's down. When the threat is down, I bring my weapon back to my "work area," perform a tactical scan (sorry, cheesy name, but that's what they call it), decock, and reholster.

At that point, threat neutralized (or, if training, on the instructor's command) I recover my empty magazine. I do have a dump pouch I might be wearing, in which case I'd use it; if not a pocket will do. NEVER PUT AN EMPTY MAG BACK IN ITS POUCH! Pouches are for full mags. You don't want to reach for a mag and have ANY DOUBT as to whether it's full or empty. If I was going to put a half-full mag back in its pouch, I'd put it in the far right one, and shift the full ones to the left, so that I know if I grab from the left, I'm grabbing a full mag.

Here's a great article on this topic:

http://www.policeone.com/columnists/Pol ... id-reload/

It differentiates between an administrative reload, a speed reload, and a tactical reload. An administrative reload is done basically on the range or in the locker room; you could map this to "any time nobody's shooting at you." You leave the pistol in its holster, pop the mag, swap 'em out, and retain the old mag. It has an added factor of safety (can't shoot anyone if its in the holster) but is useless when in a fight.

A speed reload is what I described above. You drop the mag because fractions of a second count. Nobody's going to give your corpse bonus points for retaining an empty mag. Drop 'em, reload as fast as you can, and continue fighting.

A tactical reload is what you do in combat if you have time and some safe cover; you retain your half-used mag, either in your dump pouch or back in its mag pouch. The dump pouch probably gets you back in the fight faster since you just shove it in, but then when you need that mag it's buried in your dump pouch. Putting it back in its mag pouch takes longer but could come in handy later, so it's a "time now vs. time later" tradeoff.

Trebor went over this stuff with the training we did. Check out the Training With Trebor thread:
http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... &p=1480525

And my Facebook for pics:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/album.php?id ... aid=244196

[Murph]

Nice work Phoenix David. Now for you to go test it and let us know how it worked!

[ODA 226]

Drop the empty or partially used mag down your shirt (shirt tucked in) and be done with it.

[Jeriah]

Drop the empty or partially used mag down your shirt (shirt tucked in) and be done with it.

But again the issue remains: if you don't have time to put it away properly, do you really have time to even bother retaining it? If I'm being shot at, I want my next shot to be as fast as possible, and I'll let my mag hit the deck. If not, I can take the time to put that mag where it belongs.

[Murph]

Drop the empty or partially used mag down your shirt (shirt tucked in) and be done with it.

But again the issue remains: if you don't have time to put it away properly, do you really have time to even bother retaining it? If I'm being shot at, I want my next shot to be as fast as possible, and I'll let my mag hit the deck. If not, I can take the time to put that mag where it belongs.

Because if you discard every mag you use while in a 2-way fire fight, you'll be out of mags fairly quickly. Dump pouches and ye'old shirt trick keep this from happening. Proper practice using a dump pouch will not add a whole lot of time on your reloads, but still give you usable mags for later.

[Jeriah]

Drop the empty or partially used mag down your shirt (shirt tucked in) and be done with it.

But again the issue remains: if you don't have time to put it away properly, do you really have time to even bother retaining it? If I'm being shot at, I want my next shot to be as fast as possible, and I'll let my mag hit the deck. If not, I can take the time to put that mag where it belongs.

Because if you discard every mag you use while in a 2-way fire fight, you'll be out of mags fairly quickly. Dump pouches and ye'old shirt trick keep this from happening. Proper practice using a dump pouch will not add a whole lot of time on your reloads, but still give you usable mags for later.

Are you talking about empties, or half mags? I don't see what good empties would do you in a firefight, since I doubt you'd be carrying loose ammo or even strippers in this kind of context.

If you need to do a speed reload, that is, you are actively under fire, I cannot see any reason your mag would be anything but empty. In this case, I don't see what good that empty mag is going to do you any time in the near future (which, in a firefight, is measured in seconds or fractions thereof).

If you are doing a tactical reload, that is, you are not actively taking fire but are generally in a combat situation, then it is possible that you'll be ejecting a half mag to replace it with a full one. In this case, definitely retain the half mag. The dump pouch or front of your shirt are fine for this, although I could see a case being made for putting it in your (right-most) pistol mag pouch, so it's faster to get at when you need it. You'd go through all your full mags before getting to the half-mag. Of course you could pull the half mag out of your dump pouch or shirt front when you needed it, but the mag pouch would be faster.

I'm not trying to be argumentative; I'm totally new at this! I'm just trying to reconcile what you're saying with the little bit of training I've received, and what I've heard from people I'll be training with in the future.

[Murph]

Ummm... Because you need mags to feed your weapon, otherwise what good is it? If you keep dropping mags just because they're empty, you're going to run out of them eventually.

In combat you may not have the luxury of policing up your empty mags like you could at a range / training class. You may have to move out immediately, or even break contact and book it. Unless you have someone supplying you with shiny new mags at the end of the day, you need to hold on to the ones you have.

[ODA 226]

The Army will teach you the way it wants you to shoot... just be prepared to start shooting right handed. The only left handed trainee in my OSUT course learned quickly how to shoot right handed from a DS who was also a leftie.

Learn how to shoot any firearm with BOTH hands.