Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Other provisions not covered above that may make survival easier if your life is tossed out of the norm. This section is for discussing everything from arc welders to underwear.

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Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by KMAC179 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:48 am

Ahem...

There is a lot of talk here about why people think gas masks are useless...I find this to be very dangerous.

Gas masks can be invaluable.

Most people on here say they are useless, as they only offer respiratory protection, that is perfect. I am a CBRNE (Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear, Explosive) instructor for the Department of Homeland Security, I teach Local, State, and Federal responders how to respond to and handle incidents involving the above situations, in both malicious (terrorist) and accidental releases. First, allow me to say that I will not cover every situation here, but show that in most circumstances, regular clothing and respiratory protection will do a fine job of keeping you relatively safe enough to get away from whatever bad stuff happens near you. Yes, there are some chemicals that will kill you if you look at them wrong, and yes, even with clothing, you may still be effected, but it may provide enough protection to keep you alive (though you may wish you were dead) but in most circumstances, these chemicals WILL kill you if they enter your respritory system. This will give you enough time for responders to decon you and get you to a hospital. I firmly believe that respritory protection can in most cases save your life, this is why...;

First, lets discuss Toxic Industrial Chemicals (TICs). The following are very, very common, dangerous chemicals that are used and transported in large quantity. Presented will be the chemical, guide number (for reference in the NIOSH Chemical Pocket Guide) and ID number. Also, Vapor density (lighter, or heavier than air. Lighter will float away, heavier wont) Routs of entry, volatility (the rate of evaporation), dissemination (liquid, gas) signs/symptoms of exposure.

Anhydrous Ammonia;
Guide Number: 125
ID Number: 1005
Vapor Density (VD): >1 (lighter than air)
Volatility (V): Nonpersistent (short duration; hours)
Dissemination (D): Liquid -28*F, Gas >-28*F
Routs of entry (RoE): Inhalation (IH), Ingestion (IG), Absorption (through skin) (AB)
S&S (Signs and Symptoms) : Burns, Nose/Throat irritation, blindness, lung damage, death. Onset: >4 Hours

Notes: Cotton clothing will prevent the chemical from burning skin in most cases. Burns will occur on exposed skin if in contact with chemical +/- 10 minutes. Chemical burns can be severe, however non-life threatening unless left untreated.

A respirator WILL save your life in the event of a release

Chlorine;
Guide Number: 124
ID Number: 1017
VD: <1 (heavier than air
V: nonpersistant
D: Liquid when under pressure/cooled, gas when released
RoE: IH, IG, AB
S&S: Burns/Blisters (liquid exposure), eye, throat irritation, resp. distress, nausea/vomiting (vapor). Onset: Minutes

Notes: Cotton clothing will prevent the chemical from burning skin in most cases. Burns will occur on exposed skin if in contact with chemical +/- 10 minutes. Chemical burns can be severe, however non-life threatening unless left untreated. Chemical is heavier than air, and will remain low to the ground, EVAC is required.

A respirator WILL save your life in the even of a release

See a trend here?

Now we will move onto Chemical Warfare Agents. These are available to terrorists, and are able to be produced in crude forms rather easily. These entries will include the military ID system (2 letters after chemical name) and their classification (choking, blood, blister, ect) These do not have guide or ID numbers associated with them.

Phosgene (CG), Choking:
D: Liquid (when cooled and under pressure) Gas (when in open atmosphere)
V: nonpersistant
VD: <1
RoE: IH, skin irritant
S&S: airway irritation, pulmonary edema (fluid in lungs) skin irritation, death. Onset: Immediately

Notes: Skin contact is non-life threatening. If untreated, respiratory symptoms will be fatal in a matter of minutes

A respirator WILL save your life in the event of a release

Cyanide (AC, CK), Blood:
D: liquid, gas
V: nonpersistant
VD: Hydrogen Cyanide (AC): >1 , Cyanogen Chloride (CK): <1
RoE: IH, IG
S&S: Gasping for air, frothing, vomiting, loss of consciousness, death. Onset: Immediately

Notes: contact with skin ONLY non-lethal, DECON REQUIRED.

A respirator WILL save your life in the event of a release

Blister Agents: Mustard (H), Lewisite (L) Phosgene Oxime (CX)
D: Liquid
V: persistant (will remain a liquid for some time)
VD: <1
RoE: IH, IN, AB
S&S: blisters, itching, nausea/vomiting, weakness, nasal secretions, coughing, loss of voice, resp. distress, GI effects. Onset: Delayed (up to 4-6 hours)

Notes: Chemical Burns/Blisters are non-lethal unless left untreated. Clothing will provide limited protection from agent.

A respirator will provide little protection as this agent is primarily presented as a liquid

Nerve Agents: Tabun (GA), Sarin (GB), VX
D: Liquid, Gas
V: GA, GB: nonpersistant. VX: Persistant
VD: <1
RoE: IH, AB
S&S: pinpoint pupils, resp. ARREST, weakness/dizzy, disorientation, vomiting, slurred speech, paralysis, seizures, DEATH Onset: IMMEDIATELY

Notes: Liquid in case of VX only, however it will off-gas. Standard clothing will provide little protection from agent.

A respirator will provide moderate protection/greatly enhance chances of survival in the event of a release

I will sum up Biological Agents for you in one sentence...
ALL BIO agents RoE are as follows: Inhalation, Injestion, Injection. Respiratory Protection WILL save your life as long as the material is not placed in your blood stream.

Remember, BIO agents are a whole different mess, but as long as the agent does not enter your body or blood stream, you are pretty much safe, if it comes in contact with you, there are treatments available to you, and, in most cases, skin will protect you from the agent.

In Summary: PLEASE do not underestimate respirators, they can most certainly save your life. Just food for thought....
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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by Lonely Raven » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:57 am

AWESOME FUCKING POST!

And thank you so much for contributing with your knowledge and experience.

Now, can you point me to a proper mask that I should stock in my home? Something that isn't going to break the bank?

Also, is there a preferred respirator that's easy to find locally? Like the 3M ones with the valve maybe?
Last edited by Lonely Raven on Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by aus.templar » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:01 am

Thanks for your post, I hope with your occupation that you stick around.

I've been thinking about getting one but haven't found a good one. Anyone in Australia got a good one that's not gonna rape my wallet?
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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by mantis » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:04 am

I think you're absolutely right with three caveats:

1) You have a proper mask (not some 40 year old milsurp hunk of junk).
2) You have proper filters (again not some decades expired surplus store junk).
3) You have the proper training now to use the mask.

In most cases that I've heard of, people are buying ancient Israeli masks off eBay with filters that were probably manufazctured around the time that 8-Tracks were popular.
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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by Osiris Risen » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:00 am

How well do the average hardware store respirators protect you against this stuff? I live in an out of the way place, and nobody is shipping any of that stuff close enough to the house (I'm not going to EDC a gas mask) for it to be a worry, so spending a few hundred dollars on military grade gas masks and filters is pretty low on my list of preparedness priorities. But if there's some decent stuff at the hardware store, it might be worth picking some up.
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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by Lonely Raven » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:07 am

Osiris Risen wrote:How well do the average hardware store respirators protect you against this stuff? I live in an out of the way place, and nobody is shipping any of that stuff close enough to the house (I'm not going to EDC a gas mask) for it to be a worry, so spending a few hundred dollars on military grade gas masks and filters is pretty low on my list of preparedness priorities. But if there's some decent stuff at the hardware store, it might be worth picking some up.
Exactly. What can we do with what we can find locally, or inexpensively online?
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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by Browning 35 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:04 pm

mantis wrote:I think you're absolutely right with three caveats:

1) You have a proper mask (not some 40 year old milsurp hunk of junk).
2) You have proper filters (again not some decades expired surplus store junk).
3) You have the proper training now to use the mask.
Well how old is too old if they're still in the sealed plastic?

5 years? Ten? Twenty? Or should they be brand new?
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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by KMAC179 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:38 pm

Most "regular masks" will provide limited protection from most agents. I recommend http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/mask-gas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . The BEST mask on that page is the MSA MILLENNIUM CBRN, it will protect against every agent I posted, and more. The second on my list is the 3M CBRN M40, which will also protect against everything. Your local hardware stuff will probably not protect against Chem agents, I am honestly not 100% sure, but I would definitely not recommend trying it. And Yes, I should add knowing how to use it, being proficient in using it, and having the right filters. I say anything that is a CBRN (Chem, Bio, Rad, Nuke) is your best bet, again its money, but the website posted is the best prices you will (or I have) found. As far as old stuff, 5 years is pushing it for any component. The masks are really a comfort thing, the filter is the important part. Go to the filter section of the website, anything with CBRN is 100%. Just make sure you get the right threads for the right mask, it will list whats what on the site. Those Israeli masks are junk, dont waste your time.
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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by Lonely Raven » Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:47 pm

Thank you again. Pricey, but clearly you get what you pay for. 8)

I hope you stick around and share what you can with us. It's great to have someone with proper training helping steer us in the right direction!
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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by KMAC179 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:51 pm

Lonely Raven wrote:Thank you again. Pricey, but clearly you get what you pay for. 8)

I hope you stick around and share what you can with us. It's great to have someone with proper training helping steer us in the right direction!
Im here to entertain, and inform 8) . I usually dwell in the first aid section, as that is sort of my thing, as a paramedic and tactical EMS instructor, but I occasionally chime in when I feel the need to in other sections.

Yes, they are rather pricey, but again with the exception of ebay, these are the best prices you will find. I have personally used M40's in live Sarin and VX environments, so I can tell you via first hand experience they work :wink: .

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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by Real_Ale_Act » Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:00 pm

The ID number, is that the code you'd see on the hazmat sign on the trucks? Like 1875 for propane?

Thanks!
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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by Osiris Risen » Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:09 pm

KMAC179 wrote:Most "regular masks" will provide limited protection from most agents. I recommend http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/mask-gas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . The BEST mask on that page is the MSA MILLENNIUM CBRN, it will protect against every agent I posted, and more. The second on my list is the 3M CBRN M40, which will also protect against everything. Your local hardware stuff will probably not protect against Chem agents, I am honestly not 100% sure, but I would definitely not recommend trying it. And Yes, I should add knowing how to use it, being proficient in using it, and having the right filters. I say anything that is a CBRN (Chem, Bio, Rad, Nuke) is your best bet, again its money, but the website posted is the best prices you will (or I have) found. As far as old stuff, 5 years is pushing it for any component. The masks are really a comfort thing, the filter is the important part. Go to the filter section of the website, anything with CBRN is 100%. Just make sure you get the right threads for the right mask, it will list whats what on the site. Those Israeli masks are junk, dont waste your time.
Thanks. I don't think the low risk of a chemical or nuclear attack (and probability that I'd be anywhere near the mask if I needed it) justifies the cost for me right now, I think I'd be better off using the money for more food, water, and multipurpose gear. At least now I know not to waste money on a crappy surplus mask. I'll probably get proper mask later on when I've got a bigger budget for preps, and even if I never need it, I can at least make cool Darth Vader noises.
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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by mantis » Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:04 pm

Browning 35 wrote:
mantis wrote:I think you're absolutely right with three caveats:

1) You have a proper mask (not some 40 year old milsurp hunk of junk).
2) You have proper filters (again not some decades expired surplus store junk).
3) You have the proper training now to use the mask.
Well how old is too old if they're still in the sealed plastic?

5 years? Ten? Twenty? Or should they be brand new?
I guess it depends on the particular mask/filter. Would I trust my life to 10 year old filters or an ancient milsurp mask? Probably not. Then again if that was all I had and the choice was try it or die...I'd give it a shot.
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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by KMAC179 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:49 pm

Real_Ale_Act wrote:The ID number, is that the code you'd see on the hazmat sign on the trucks? Like 1875 for propane?

Thanks!
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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by DarkAxel » Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:38 am

I'd like to chime in here. Chemical threats lurk in every community. For example, Bluegrass Army Depot in central Kentucky is home to a huge stockpile of chemical weapons waiting to be destroyed. Chemicals have leaked from the storage bunkers several times.

http://www.wkyt.com/home/headlines/24692509.html

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/12/g ... in_071206/

Trains carrying hazardous materials travel through communities all over the country, and sometimes those trains derail and release those materials

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/85/i04/8504train.html

You never know when a protective mask could save your life.
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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by Browning 35 » Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:48 am

mantis wrote:I guess it depends on the particular mask/filter. Would I trust my life to 10 year old filters or an ancient milsurp mask? Probably not. Then again if that was all I had and the choice was try it or die...I'd give it a shot.
That's really what it boils down to.

I'm guessing that there must be an exp. date on both the mask and the filters. Yes?
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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by Necrodamus » Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:09 am

I think the big moral to the story is have the right equipment for the job.
Dont take a knife to a gunfight.
If you live where you need the mask then get the right mask.
If you need something while your dusting your garden with pesticide then the 20 yr old milsurp MIGHT be the cost effective route.
If you think your going to be in a situation where you will need real protection, dont buy it from the discount bin!
That fits right there with the $10 Trauma kit, $50 defensive weapon and the FREE body armor (phone books) LMAO!

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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by KMAC179 » Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:29 am

Browning 35 wrote:
mantis wrote:I guess it depends on the particular mask/filter. Would I trust my life to 10 year old filters or an ancient milsurp mask? Probably not. Then again if that was all I had and the choice was try it or die...I'd give it a shot.
That's really what it boils down to.

I'm guessing that there must be an exp. date on both the mask and the filters. Yes?
yes. most surplus stuff will have a manufacture date, sometimes an exp. date, you can find info online regarding it. And I agree, if its all I have, im gonna try it.
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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by RulingCzar » Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:19 pm

Browning 35 wrote:
mantis wrote:I guess it depends on the particular mask/filter. Would I trust my life to 10 year old filters or an ancient milsurp mask? Probably not. Then again if that was all I had and the choice was try it or die...I'd give it a shot.
That's really what it boils down to.

I'm guessing that there must be an exp. date on both the mask and the filters. Yes?
Some of the masks indicate when the filters expire such as the SGE 400 "Kit Includes: SGE 400 Mask & 1 DP (Domestic Preparedness) 'NBC' Filter (expires 2023)"

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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by MacAttack » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:35 am

These SUCK!!!!!!!

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MLT9104-1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You have no chance at all of replacing the filters in the field while in the contaminated environment. The filters are INSIDE the mask. Take off the mask to change the filters.

They BITE!!!


http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MIL1200-1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is better. At least you can change the filter in the field and you can find new civilian filters to fit it. Either with an adapter or the original size.
https://www.mainemilitary.com/productca ... oduct=1630" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Personally i wouldn't trust a Milsurp Mask unless I myself inspected it. If the seals are weak or the rubber is stiff or cracking I would pass on it. If the straps were replaced or fixed in anyway I would pass also.
But the Milsurp mask should last 20 years if taken care of.
Use only known fresh and good filters though.

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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by neener » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:54 am

MacAttack wrote:These SUCK!!!!!!!

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MLT9104-1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You have no chance at all of replacing the filters in the field while in the contaminated environment. The filters are INSIDE the mask. Take off the mask to change the filters.

They BITE!!!
I would NEVER trust my life to an OM-10 mask. First off, there is the fact of having to remove the mask to replace the filters. Secondly, I have heard from a few different sources that the OM-10's were only designed to protect police from tear gas, so they'd be useless against NBC attacks. Now, I'm not sure if that's true or not, but I'll just save up and extra few bucks and buy some newer Isreali masks and filters instead.

After reading this thread, I might have to get some respirators to add with n95 masks I'm gonna get.

Is there any good to use to cover the upper half of you face if you're only wearing a half-face respirator?
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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by Ovationman » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:56 pm

Adding a chemical resistant suit to your kit would be a good idea. A good suit can save your life when Nerve agents/orthophosphates are present. Also they will help you avoid skin contact with other chemicals. They are also cheap and compact.
http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/suit-typeF.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EDIT: don't forget gloves and some sort of waterproof boot

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Re: Gas Masks..please take a look, very long and very informativ

Post by DarkAxel » Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:43 pm

neener wrote:
MacAttack wrote:These SUCK!!!!!!!

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MLT9104-1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You have no chance at all of replacing the filters in the field while in the contaminated environment. The filters are INSIDE the mask. Take off the mask to change the filters.

They BITE!!!
I would NEVER trust my life to an OM-10 mask. First off, there is the fact of having to remove the mask to replace the filters. Secondly, I have heard from a few different sources that the OM-10's were only designed to protect police from tear gas, so they'd be useless against NBC attacks. Now, I'm not sure if that's true or not, but I'll just save up and extra few bucks and buy some newer Isreali masks and filters instead.

After reading this thread, I might have to get some respirators to add with n95 masks I'm gonna get.

Is there any good to use to cover the upper half of you face if you're only wearing a half-face respirator?

The OM 10 was de-rated for NBC because the glass inserts get eat up by blister agents. Same as first-run M40s.
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