Utility - Ice axe or Tomahawk?

[Agent_Jaws]

What do you guys think you'll find more utility for, an Ice Axe or a Tomahawk (the axe not the missile)? I know that an axe can be really handy but for some reason I keep thinking I'll have to dig sometime and the ice axe is almost like a pick axe. I dunno, what do you guys think? I'm thinking for the following environments:

Pacific NW forests

Southwest high deserts

Southern US forest/swamps

If you would take one over the other for a specific environment, why?


Ice axe - http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/climbdetail.cfm/BD810

Tomahawk - http://www.rmjtactical.com/

[ninja-elbow]

Tomahawk. History has it being used almost constantly, as well as anyone who goes outside a bit (me included). I have never needed a pick but have needed an axe/'hawk quite a few times.

[bonanacrom]

Just construction alone the axe can take abuse and still keep on working. If you want a walking stick pick one off the ground. I use mine for everything from a hammer to chopping throwing could bash heads. Unless your going to climb ice cliffs get an axe.

[ironraven]

Unless you are a communist assassin, ice axes are pretty much limited to their intended mountaineering functions.

A hawk or hatchet is a much more versatile system. You can even chop ice if you absolutely must.

[The Frank]

The tomahawk you showed to us has a pick in the back anyway.

[Chef]

The tomahawk you showed to us has a pick in the back anyway.

Your specified environments don't really require an ice axe. Unless you're planning on committing some mayhem, or busting dirt clods all day long, I'd advise against a pick-back tommyhawk (unless it's function is to look cool). If you're going to cut more wood than skulls and dirt, you'd probably be better served with a small axe that doesn't have a skull poker on the back-- that thing is going to be swinging in the general direction of YOUR head every time you draw it back for a chop. You can use an axe as a weapon if need be, and it's a lot more ergonomic, not to mention safer, for the jobs you'll be using it for 99.573% of the time.

Do you already have a good shovel for the dirt?

[Squirrley]

Yea, from my understanding an ice axe is about 100% useless for anything besides mountaineering. If thats what you're doing, then you already know what gear you need.

Go with the hawk, or even more utilitarian, something like those Gerber hatchets with the little saw in the handle.

[11mongo11]

Cant help but think an ice axe will keep what is on the recieving end close to you. Id like what gets hit to be on the ground or in the fire.

[WolfBrother]

What do you guys think you'll find more utility for, an Ice Axe or a Tomahawk (the axe not the missile)? I know that an axe can be really handy but for some reason I keep thinking I'll have to dig sometime and the ice axe is almost like a pick axe. I dunno, what do you guys think? I'm thinking for the following environments:

Pacific NW forests

Southwest high deserts

Southern US forest/swamps

If you would take one over the other for a specific environment, why?


Ice axe - http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/climbdetail.cfm/BD810

Tomahawk - http://www.rmjtactical.com/

If you're made of money - go for the RMJ Tactical Crash Ax or any of their Hawks for $360.
The Crash Ax has a flat crushing end that can also be used to drive in tent stakes. It has a cutting end that is designed to get thru metal - couldn't help but work good on a Zed's head.

OR

You can spend $40.00 plus shipping for a forged Estwing Roofers Hatchet.
http://www.cornerhardware.com/shinglers ... 6838/30813

The Estwing doesn't even begin to compare in cool factor but will do what you say you need.

[Gingersam]

I have an ice axe. To be honest unless in a snowy enviroment it really not that usefull. An axe however is much more useful.

[Dog Off Leash]

Save up and get a 'hawk from RMJ Forge. I'm partial to their Shrike and Kestrel.

[Browning 35]

I'd definately pick the tomahawk out of a choice between the two, but $360 + $18 for shipping for one is really kind of stretching it.



Why pay that when you can get an Estwing Sportsmans Axe from Home Depot or Lowes for a little over $30?

It's gonna do exactly the same thing.

[Dog Off Leash]

It's gonna do exactly the same thing.

Not really...

The Eastwing was designed for camping; the RMJ designed for combat.

It's a serious difference that needs to be experienced rather than talked about. It's much like the arguement of paying $300-$400 for a knife from Strider, Chris Reeve, etc. vs a Buck or even a Ka-Bar.

[Agent_Jaws]

Actually I'm thinking that a regular axe/hatchet/camp axe would be a better tool than a tomahawk, the poll was more because my wife and I were debating it after watching an axe show on tv. The reason I think a regular axe would be better is because not only can it chop/cut, but the back side can function as a solid hammer. Neither the tomahawk or ice axe can do that nearly as effectively.

I pretty much argued myself into a 3/4 length regular axe since it'd be the best compromise between chopping/cutting/hammering and if need be could be used as either a blunt or sharp weapon. It's not as heavy and awkward to carry as a full size axe but still can perform most of the work. I think outside of either being on a glacier or in combat, a regular axe trumps both the ice axe and tomahawk.

Cool factor aside, I looked at those tomahawks and IMO $360 is way too much for that tool unless it fills some specific needs you have. I priced out a good axe at around $60 shipped that I think would be way more useful in a PAW or survival situation, and I can think of many other things to use the remaining $300 on. Then again, I'm probably not the model to follow for frugal spending considering my past purchases.

[Browning 35]

Not really...

The Eastwing was designed for camping; the RMJ designed for combat.

It's a serious difference that needs to be experienced rather than talked about. It's much like the arguement of paying $300-$400 for a knife from Strider, Chris Reeve, etc. vs a Buck or even a Ka-Bar.

So you're telling me that a chop wound on a human body is going to somehow be worse with a tomahawk than a hatchet if the bit/blade and beard are exactly the same width? Sorry, but I just don't see it.

Calling one a weapon and the other a tool doesn't somehow magically translate into more tissue destruction if they're both the same dimensions and have the same cutting surface. Plus tomahawks usually have a shorter beard and are usually a little thinner than most hatchets, so in many cases there would actually be less tissue destruction with a tomahawk than with a hatchet.

Case in point.

This is the Shrike tomahawk in question.


This is the Estwing hatchet I was talking about. Compare the width of the two blades.


Which will result in more tissue destruction if used as a weapon?

Will the hatchet be less destructive because it's called a tool rather than a weapon? I don't think so.

Just because people are willing to pay 150 to 200% more for a custom name weapon so that they can get all their buddies down at the gun shop or hardware store to 'Oooohh' and 'Ahhhh' at their new high price toy doesn't mean that it's wise to spend the money. I can see spending more if there's an actual difference in the quality of the materials (better steel that stays sharper longer, stronger handle that won't crack or split etc), but when custom knife and tomahawk guys are charging $360 for something that cost them $60 to make there's something rotten in Denmark.

If it makes you feel good go ahead and buy it, but my knives and hatchets are made out of the same materials that Strider and RMJ use and they cost far less. Which leaves a lot more money for some other stuff I need. I just don't believe in wasting money. I'd rather buy Levis brand jeans which clothe my body and that hold up over time as opposed to spending $500 for some designer jeans that someone put their name on.

[Chef]

I think it's more a matter of the tomahawk being faster/better balanced/more responsive that makes it more suitable as a weapon rather than the amount of tissue destruction per swipe.

[WolfBrother]

I think it's more a matter of the tomahawk being faster/better balanced/more responsive that makes it more suitable as a weapon rather than the amount of tissue destruction per swipe.

Chef, I think you left one important item out from your list. Training.

I'd be more worried about what the guy who uses a roofing hatchet, framing hammer on a daily basis could do with them than what a number of the untrained "I've go a <insert cool factor brand name> hawk" owners could.

Given the training - sure a hawk owner could do damage. Then again, same training the owner of Estwing Brown 35 mentions could do the same damage.

[Dog Off Leash]

Some of you guys crack me up.

The spike of said tomahawk was designed to penetrate a Kevlar helmet, which I've seen it do. If one thinks that the only use of RMJ's products is for fighting, then someone's not thinking outside the box. I know several firemen who carry their products as part of their gear. LEO's have them for breaking & raking, among other things. I've torn through drywall and other building materials with them. They can also be used for digging and a myraid of other tasks.

If I need to pound a tent stake, then I use a BFR.

One doesn't need a whole lot of training to be able to hold both Product A and Product B and determine which fits their hand better, is lighter, etc. It's a matter of preference. That a product is designed specifically for one task - in RMJ's case, fighting; in the Eastwing's case, chopping wood - then said product is going to be good at that task, and not as good at others. If you want to chop firewood, then buy an axe. If you want to chop zombies, then get a 'hawk. It's that simple.

I'll not argue against training making one better at a task, however, and that training should always be found for a skill that one doesn't possess.

Just because people are willing to pay 150 to 200% more for a custom name weapon so that they can get all their buddies down at the gun shop or hardware store to 'Oooohh' and 'Ahhhh' at their new high price toy doesn't mean that it's wise to spend the money. I can see spending more if there's an actual difference in the quality of the materials (better steel that stays sharper longer, stronger handle that won't crack or split etc), but when custom knife and tomahawk guys are charging $360 for something that cost them $60 to make there's something rotten in Denmark.

If it makes you feel good go ahead and buy it, but my knives and hatchets are made out of the same materials that Strider and RMJ use and they cost far less. Which leaves a lot more money for some other stuff I need. I just don't believe in wasting money. I'd rather buy Levis brand jeans which clothe my body and that hold up over time as opposed to spending $500 for some designer jeans that someone put their name on.

Don't presume to lump me in with a gunstore commando.

If you want to continue to surround yourself with mediocre equipment, then be my guest. In the cutlery world (as in others, such as tactical gear, etc) you often get what you pay for. Seeing as I've carried Strider, Chris Reeve, Emerson, RMJ, Eagle Industries, and a bunch of other products - both as a member of the military and as a defense contractor - on several continents, through various war zones, and they've yet to fail me, I'm going to continue to purchase, use, and recommend them.

Folks who bargain-basement shop for their equipment shouldn't be surprised with their equipment doesn't perform to par, and/or fails them at a critical moment.

[Browning 35]

Don't presume to lump me in with a gunstore commando.

I never said a word about you being a gunstore commando.

The phrase never came up in any of my posts and I don't presume to know anything about you other than what little is in this thread. The only thing that I really know about you at all is that apparently I believe in being a little more frugal and careful with my money than you are while at the same time buying something that will last a lifetime if I take care of it, but that's about it.

I'm not gonna start throwing out insults or calling you names simply because we disagree on something. This is a message board meant for discussion, that's all we're doing (having a discussion) as far as I'm concerned.

If you want to continue to surround yourself with mediocre equipment, then be my guest.

Just because a tool or a weapon costs less than something else doesn't automatically make it mediocre, it just means that the one item costs more. Basically it seems like you're assuming that just because something costs more than something else then that automatically means that the higher priced item is better somehow, sometimes that's true and sometimes it isn't. However if that price inscrease isn't accompanied with better materials then this is not the case.

I'm not presuming to know anything about you other than what's in this thread, so don't presume to know what I have surrounding me either. I've made one recommendation (on an axe that is very popular with hunters, campers and preparedness freaks the world over), do you really think that you know everything about me because of that one recommendation?

In the cutlery world (as in others, such as tactical gear, etc) you often get what you pay for.

I'm all for getting quality equipment, but you've yet to tell me what these semi-custom knives with some legend in their own minds name stamped on it can do that good knife made from quality materials, but that's less inexpensive couldn't.

Folks who bargain-basement shop for their equipment shouldn't be surprised with their equipment doesn't perform to par, and/or fails them at a critical moment.

Just because a tool or a weapon costs less than something else doesn't mean that it's bargain basement equipment or mean that it will fail. Exactly how is an axe and axe handle that's made out of steel going to fail me? It's more likely that the composite/synthetic material that makes up the handle of the Shrike would fail before steel would.

You're confusing a high price with quality materials and they are NOT the same thing.

I believe in buying good quality items the first time and being done with it, but I'm not going to spend a whole shitload of money on a knife when I can get a good one for between $60 (Ka-Bar) to $200 (Fallkniven, Bark River, Tops, Al Mar, Bob Dozier etc) made out of the same materials as these high priced semi-custom knives and as far as I'm concerned the same thing applies to axes and hatchets as well.

[Agent_Jaws]

Upgraded materials and such are also more relevant to application, rather than product. A $60 steel knife is probably more suitable for the apocalypse than the fancy $300 ceramic knife. It's not just a simple matter of "all steel means better" because if you've chopped any trees down with a steel handle axe then chopped with a wood handle axe you'll know that steel can kinda suck balls sometimes. A steel box is way more durable than a nylon backpack but that doesn't mean it's the better choice to bug out with.

[Chef]

I think you left one important item out from your list. Training.

Sometimes I fergit to repeat things that should go without saying.

As for you, Dog: I'd never thought about using a tommyhawk spike in the ways you mentioned. Thanks for broadening the horizon a bit. (I can't find a "thumbs up" emoticon to go here, so imagine one.) Maybe if I'd been stuck in a burning building with a spike-back hatchet it would have occurred to me, but I'm sheltered.

[streetpig1690]

I purchased a Cold Steel Fusion tomahawk a couple of years ago and love it. It goes with me everywhere.

[canuck]

Wow. That's a landslide vote.

[AmirMortal]

I think for me the only attraction to the ice axe would be the possibility of having an adz. The adz is a great tool for wood working such as carving a canoe. There are lots of waterways in Florida that have potential, but not much ice... Aside from specific uses like wood working or ice working, I don't see much advantage in the ice axe.

I choose the tom, hatchet, or axe for a general workhorse tool.

EDIT: I use these regularly:

22oz Rock hammer


4lb Sledge (long handle though)


22oz Framing hammer


Fiskars Wood chopping axe