Let's talk camouflage

Other provisions not covered above that may make survival easier if your life is tossed out of the norm. This section is for discussing everything from arc welders to underwear.

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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by Maeklos » Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:47 am

moab wrote: I don't see a lot of preppers prepping their camo. Certainly not on this forum. It's a wise investment in time and very little money. If you truly want to be a grey man out in the woods or plains or fields or desert or wherever. You better know camouflage. That is your best defense. Your going to have a pack. Your going to have valuables that people want. Not matter how grey man you go. Your best bet is to simply not be seen by the general populace. Just MHO.
An adjunct to that - and one that, as you pointed out, goes hand-in-hand with active and proficient hunters - is knowing how to move. The human eye recognizes movement much better than it does patterns, so knowing and practicing how to move, finding the best paths through or around terrain features, learning how to use the wind and motion of foliage to mask your own movements...all these things need to be understood and worked over. After all, it was these skills that enabled our ancestors to be successful hunters for well over a million years - you don't get close enough to a deer to throw a spear or even use an atl-atl by moving like a sasquatch.
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by Langenator » Wed Mar 16, 2016 8:58 am

Now, a lot of us don't do much with camo because we live in urban/suburban environments, where 'woods and fields' are the trees by the picnic area and the fields have soccer goals on them.

Camoflage in that case means looking like that homeless guy that nobody pays attention to.
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by teotwaki » Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:47 am

I think of it as a mindset about how to blend in rather than wearing a particular camo pattern

cam·ou·flage

1.
the disguising of military personnel, equipment, and installations by painting or covering them to make them blend in with their surroundings.
"on the trenches were pieces of turf, which served for camouflage"
synonyms: disguise, concealment, cover, screen

1.
hide or disguise the presence of (a person, animal, or object) by means of camouflage

Camouflage is the use of any combination of materials, coloration, or illumination for concealment, either by making animals or objects hard to see (crypsis), or by disguising them as something else (mimesis). Examples include the leopard's spotted coat, the battledress of a modern soldier, and the leaf-mimic katydid's wings.[1] A third approach, motion dazzle, confuses the observer with a conspicuous pattern, making the object visible but momentarily harder to locate. The majority of camouflage methods aim for crypsis, often through a general resemblance to the background, high contrast disruptive coloration, eliminating shadow, and countershading.


Based on our intended areas of operation we may need one or many types of camouflage which may well include minimizing how much gear we have hanging off of belts, vests, leg rigs, etc. while in an urban environment. We've all seen camo worn as a fashion statement.....

Image

....but once you layer on a bunch of gear and weapons the message changes from fashion to something more dangerous

Image

for the homeless non-tactical camo look

Image
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by woodsghost » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:38 pm

teotwaki, thank you for your illustrations. I appreciate your input on a topic I feel is frequently misunderstood.



To the topic of camouflage, I appreciate the comments on mixing patterns and how many bow hunters (and likely many turkey hunters) will have a leg up on most others when using camo. But.....

...but my experiences are a mixed bag here. My experience has been about 97% paintball and 3% hunting. That is because I have been paintballing 17 years and only hunting 4-5 years. So folks can put my experience through that filter.

I have found that the most important thing is to break up your shape or use terrain to mask your presence. Using hills, trees, bushes, and tall grass do more than choosing one camouflage over another. Actually, I don't feel a great need for wearing camo any more. Simply wearing something "earthy" colored and moving slow, low, and quietly, moving with the terrain and vegetation as a mask, lets me do anything I want.

(Personal anecdotes below).

I have read at least one hunter doing the same thing, even stalking turkeys and getting within bow range of them using micro terrain and vegetation as a mask. I assume he wore camouflage? Certainly plenty of deer hunters have stalked within bow range, though that may be less of a feat given how deer apparently perceive the world.

When I see others in the woods, I typically don't see colors (except navy and black, those stand out, as well as certain brighter obvious colors like white, orange, yellow, etc). If the person or animal is at all earthy colored, I simply don't see them. I see shapes and silhouettes. Probably 95% of the time I see movement and that is how I first detect my quarry. Quite often I hear my quarry before really "seeing" them too. So in my experience shape, silhouette, movement, and sound are the primary means of detecting things in the woods. Of those, movement is probably the most common give-away.

All right, some personal anecdotes: I have probably had more than 150 people (spread out over 17 years) walk within arms reach of me in the woods and have no idea I was there. Most of the time I was wearing woodland pattern camo. Other times I was simply wearing earth tones (brown, olive, tan, or grey). I have found so far that simply holding still does wonders for avoiding notice by people in the woods.

I have detected and sneeked within 15 feet of experienced bow hunters all done up in Realtree camo. I have done this on several occasions. I only wore woodland camo. (I would first detect them because I would hear voices and then move in to where I could see them).

I had turkeys walk within 20 feet of me as I sat on the forest floor in a woodland top and blue jeans. No makup. I was licensed for deer, so I did not get any of the turkeys. I also had turkeys routinely walk within 50 feet of me over several weeks as I was working a job planting ginsing. I did not wear a stitch of camo. This has lead me to be very confused about turkeys and turkey hunting. I'm guessing terrain helped me avoid notice?

I have sneeked within 25 yards of deer for bow hunting, but never bothered to sneek closer. I was always wearing woodland camo.

I have had deer walk close, and had one walk about 10 feet of me while I was sitting on the ground. I finally had to blink due to a fly starting to crawl on my eye and she finally noticed me and ran off. I was not wearing any camo, just sitting near my private camp site after an overnighter.

My takeaways:

Camo is great, but understanding how movement and terrain affect detection are probably more crucial.

After re-reading what I wrote above, I'm realizing hand-signals are something I have neglected and I really need to learn to communicate silently.


Oh, and this gentleman has some great videos on camo. They help exercise the mind to spot people hiding too.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Brent0331/videos
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by teotwaki » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:18 pm

Woodsghost... Great anecdotes. If I were to sum things up I thank that so far we are zeroing in on the art of concealment. We can succeed if we understand what the opposition is looking for and then use terrain, lighting, color and shapes to deny recognition of their quarry/target/enemy.
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by moab » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:38 pm

woodsghost wrote:teotwaki, thank you for your illustrations. I appreciate your input on a topic I feel is frequently misunderstood.



To the topic of camouflage, I appreciate the comments on mixing patterns and how many bow hunters (and likely many turkey hunters) will have a leg up on most others when using camo. But.....

...but my experiences are a mixed bag here. My experience has been about 97% paintball and 3% hunting. That is because I have been paintballing 17 years and only hunting 4-5 years. So folks can put my experience through that filter.

I have found that the most important thing is to break up your shape or use terrain to mask your presence. Using hills, trees, bushes, and tall grass do more than choosing one camouflage over another. Actually, I don't feel a great need for wearing camo any more. Simply wearing something "earthy" colored and moving slow, low, and quietly, moving with the terrain and vegetation as a mask, lets me do anything I want.

(Personal anecdotes below).

I have read at least one hunter doing the same thing, even stalking turkeys and getting within bow range of them using micro terrain and vegetation as a mask. I assume he wore camouflage? Certainly plenty of deer hunters have stalked within bow range, though that may be less of a feat given how deer apparently perceive the world.

When I see others in the woods, I typically don't see colors (except navy and black, those stand out, as well as certain brighter obvious colors like white, orange, yellow, etc). If the person or animal is at all earthy colored, I simply don't see them. I see shapes and silhouettes. Probably 95% of the time I see movement and that is how I first detect my quarry. Quite often I hear my quarry before really "seeing" them too. So in my experience shape, silhouette, movement, and sound are the primary means of detecting things in the woods. Of those, movement is probably the most common give-away.

All right, some personal anecdotes: I have probably had more than 150 people (spread out over 17 years) walk within arms reach of me in the woods and have no idea I was there. Most of the time I was wearing woodland pattern camo. Other times I was simply wearing earth tones (brown, olive, tan, or grey). I have found so far that simply holding still does wonders for avoiding notice by people in the woods.

I have detected and sneeked within 15 feet of experienced bow hunters all done up in Realtree camo. I have done this on several occasions. I only wore woodland camo. (I would first detect them because I would hear voices and then move in to where I could see them).

I had turkeys walk within 20 feet of me as I sat on the forest floor in a woodland top and blue jeans. No makup. I was licensed for deer, so I did not get any of the turkeys. I also had turkeys routinely walk within 50 feet of me over several weeks as I was working a job planting ginsing. I did not wear a stitch of camo. This has lead me to be very confused about turkeys and turkey hunting. I'm guessing terrain helped me avoid notice?

I have sneeked within 25 yards of deer for bow hunting, but never bothered to sneek closer. I was always wearing woodland camo.

I have had deer walk close, and had one walk about 10 feet of me while I was sitting on the ground. I finally had to blink due to a fly starting to crawl on my eye and she finally noticed me and ran off. I was not wearing any camo, just sitting near my private camp site after an overnighter.

My takeaways:

Camo is great, but understanding how movement and terrain affect detection are probably more crucial.

After re-reading what I wrote above, I'm realizing hand-signals are something I have neglected and I really need to learn to communicate silently.


Oh, and this gentleman has some great videos on camo. They help exercise the mind to spot people hiding too.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Brent0331/videos
I mentioned very briefly in my comments above about "cover and concealment". This is the most basic way the military breaks down movement, or placement rather, of a camouflaged body. "Cover" is to hide behind something. "Concealment" is to conceal ones camo'd self in front of a similarly camo'd background. To blend in. Like a woodland camo in front of dark earthy trees or forest. Or a desert pattern in the desert. Etc. etc.

And your right. Movement is crucial. But you'll never make up for lack of camo simply with movement. I would venture to guess that those people you snuck up on. Or walked into you. We're not trained professionals or even anyone looking for a "hiding" man. Turn the tables and start looking for someone that is trying to hide. And it's a whole different ball game.

I also have a lot of respect for paintball. But you need to play it out in the woods or environment your living in. Playing in a planned area is very different than if you used camo and played out in the woods. A good friend of mine had both on his property. It was very interesting to see the very different styles of play.

In the end, camo and movement work hand in hand. And are crucial skills that we to often do not talk about. Even simple camo face paint. Is crucial. GEt some and learn how to cover every exposed part of your skin with it. You'll be surprised how much it affects when you can be seen and not be seen.
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by teotwaki » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:09 pm

rowdyrugby wrote:The value of camouflage is obvious, even if it is not part of your bug out gear. Simply put, what manner of camouflage do you subscribe to? Surplus? New? Digital or other?

I am personally a fan of the Russian digital flora (it is also super comfortable).
Russian digital flora



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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by woodsghost » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:09 pm

moab wrote:
I mentioned very briefly in my comments above about "cover and concealment". This is the most basic way the military breaks down movement, or placement rather, of a camouflaged body. "Cover" is to hide behind something. "Concealment" is to conceal ones camo'd self in front of a similarly camo'd background. To blend in. Like a woodland camo in front of dark earthy trees or forest. Or a desert pattern in the desert. Etc. etc.

And your right. Movement is crucial. But you'll never make up for lack of camo simply with movement. I would venture to guess that those people you snuck up on. Or walked into you. We're not trained professionals or even anyone looking for a "hiding" man. Turn the tables and start looking for someone that is trying to hide. And it's a whole different ball game.

I also have a lot of respect for paintball. But you need to play it out in the woods or environment your living in. Playing in a planned area is very different than if you used camo and played out in the woods. A good friend of mine had both on his property. It was very interesting to see the very different styles of play.

In the end, camo and movement work hand in hand. And are crucial skills that we to often do not talk about. Even simple camo face paint. Is crucial. GEt some and learn how to cover every exposed part of your skin with it. You'll be surprised how much it affects when you can be seen and not be seen.
I was thinking about my post last night, and knew I left a few things out. You articulated some things I think I was struggling with articulating.

There is a huge difference between a "paintball field" and "the woods." Most paintball fields I have been on, even "woodsball fields," are either manicured or beat down to where the underbrush is non-existent. Probably 75% of my paintballing has been "outlaw" paintballing, meaning in fields and woods around where I used to live (always had permission). So most of my experience is with the actual terrain I would have been in, and very similar to my terrain now.

Because of the undergrowth I have been able to sneak close to people or have them walk super close to me. Basically, I have to crawl into a bush, or crawl into a patch of leafy vegetation or saplings, or cover myself with grass I have pulled up and a few branches I might clip from around me. I can't do these things at official fields. Which gets to a particular point...

Cover vs. concealment: It has been my understanding that cover is "bullet resistant" and concealment is not. Is this a wrong way to understand these terms?

I absolutely can't imagine hiding while standing in front of something. In my experience one always has to obscure the shape and silhouette. That is not terribly difficult in areas like these:

(random picture of Iowa)
Image

http://www.inhf.org/neste-valley-recreation-area.cfm

(^^^Pics too large, but some of those are near the county I grew up in)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/65839294@N03/20844154253

(^^^ Directs to flicker, obviously, but my computer was a little concerned when I tried to access the picture. It is a random picture of Iowa)



And some speculation:

I am thinking about why it is that mixing camos does not work as well. I wonder if it is because there are hard, straight lines created where the shirt does not match the pants, or where camo patterns change and differ:

Image

There are straight lines where his pockets and sleeves are mismatched, and where his shirt does not match his pants. Straight lines don't show up much in nature. I wonder if that is what draws our eyes, and if so, what the effect of adding some blending effects might be? Maybe curvy lines along the edges of garments, or spray paint to blend and disguise the differences in colors?

I also got to thinking about the movie "Lone Survivor," where we see this:

Image

And surely movies are accurate, right? SF guys and Navy SEALs probably mix camos, right? Well, I don't spend much time with anyone who has been SF in the last 30 years, but I did find this picture:

Image

That comes from an article on how realistic "Lone Survivor" really was.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/201 ... _berg.html

I do remember reading the experience of one SEAL in Vietnam who wrote about his unit always wearing Levis with an olive or camo shirt. Levis were worn due to superior durability at the time. Perhaps those pants simply got enough dirt on them that they started to blend with the landscape? Perhaps also those pants did not matter because the vegetation was so thick? I suspect my own ability to mix and match top and bottom colors has come from super thick vegetation. I don't know though.

On the matter of painting one's face, I have found that rather helpful. I got started with that playing games similar to "hide and seek" where everyone ran into the woods and if you spotted someone you could call their name and they would be out, so you learned to really look for people while also learning to stay hidden. I kinda think some sort of shemagh might be better (?) due to the ability to keep mosquitoes off your face. I hate those things. Anyway, I need to play around with that some more, but I do love face paint!
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by Maeklos » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:37 pm

woodsghost wrote: Cover vs. concealment: It has been my understanding that cover is "bullet resistant" and concealment is not. Is this a wrong way to understand these terms?
As a general rule of thumb, f you're hiding behind something to protect you, that's cover. If you're using something to stay hidden or to prevent yourself from being seen easily, that's concealment. Generally speaking, you can shoot through concealment, but cover tends to stop bullets. (Hedges and bushes versus sandbag/concrete barricades, rocks, etc.)
woodsghost wrote: I do remember reading the experience of one SEAL in Vietnam who wrote about his unit always wearing Levis with an olive or camo shirt. Levis were worn due to superior durability at the time. Perhaps those pants simply got enough dirt on them that they started to blend with the landscape? Perhaps also those pants did not matter because the vegetation was so thick? I suspect my own ability to mix and match top and bottom colors has come from super thick vegetation. I don't know though.

On the matter of painting one's face, I have found that rather helpful. I got started with that playing games similar to "hide and seek" where everyone ran into the woods and if you spotted someone you could call their name and they would be out, so you learned to really look for people while also learning to stay hidden. I kinda think some sort of shemagh might be better (?) due to the ability to keep mosquitoes off your face. I hate those things. Anyway, I need to play around with that some more, but I do love face paint!
Mud and ash work great for impromptu paint, both for clothes and for skin. Smear your face in mud and it'll protect you from mosquitos, too, and rimming your eyes with ash will help reduce glare from the sun on bright days.

Also remember that in the days of Vietnam, standard fatigues were OD green - so the difference between green pants and dark blue probably wasn't huge after a few days in the muck. Also, dark blue is the best color to wear at night.
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by Langenator » Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:21 pm

The general rule is that cover stops bullets, concealment stops eyeballs from seeing you. However, it can depend on what the bad guy is shooting at you. Something that is cover vs 5.56 might be concealment to .30-06 or .50 BMG.
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by Evan the Diplomat » Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:57 am

woodsghost wrote:
SNIP



And surely movies are accurate, right? SF guys and Navy SEALs probably mix camos, right? Well, I don't spend much time with anyone who has been SF in the last 30 years, but I did find this picture:

Image

That comes from an article on how realistic "Lone Survivor" really was.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/201 ... _berg.html

I do remember reading the experience of one SEAL in Vietnam who wrote about his unit always wearing Levis with an olive or camo shirt. Levis were worn due to superior durability at the time. Perhaps those pants simply got enough dirt on them that they started to blend with the landscape? Perhaps also those pants did not matter because the vegetation was so thick? I suspect my own ability to mix and match top and bottom colors has come from super thick vegetation. I don't know though.
When I was chauffeuring around SEALs in SBU-12 they mostly wore woodland, but would mix it up. I cant speak for much of the Vietnam experience, but one of my Dad's friends was there with the CIA and they sewed the utility sleeves to their flak vests and wore nothing underneath.

The British wore mixed uniforms in Afghanistan, even going so far as to dye their tops green.
Image

Here is a complete article about British uniforms in A-stan

https://strikehold.wordpress.com/2009/0 ... ntroversy/
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by teotwaki » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:20 pm

I dug around for other photos of the time frame under discussion because I had noted the woodland camo on the one actor in the movie and was interested in the accuracy.

Image

Image

At the suggested website about the movie's accuracy I laughed when I read this:

In the book, members of the Taliban enter Luttrell’s room and begin beating him. (“I didn’t give that much of a shit,” Luttrell writes. “I can suck this kind of crap up, like I’ve been trained. Anyway, they didn’t have a decent punch among them.”)
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by rowdyrugby » Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:36 am

moab wrote: I take it you've never been in the military
Why would you assume that? I am not and in no way was trying to advocate a ton of mismatched gear- matching pants with different shirts/jackets etc. I even said test your gear. I was more so referring to the fact that I have different uniforms for different seasons. My web gear fits just fine with all of my camo. It perhaps isn't ideal for the Austrian stuff I have but if I am relegated to wearing the Austrian stuff, I am in trouble. Again, I am not trying to advocate a damned picasso hodge podge of gear but I know you can still succeed as long as you plan and do your research.
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by Mcarpenter » Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:20 am

In a zombie apocalypse a regular military camouflage won’t do. So I say: zombie guts and zombies without jaws and arms. In the Walking Dead they seem to be the best deterrent.

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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by teotwaki » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:12 am

Mcarpenter wrote:In a zombie apocalypse a regular military camouflage won’t do. So I say: zombie guts and zombies without jaws and arms. In the Walking Dead they seem to be the best deterrent.
There are some "stabs" at zombie camo

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by sventhewarrior » Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:05 am

I've been mulling this topic around for a while, and I haven't come to any great conclusions.

Most camo is designed for the wilderness. That's fine if you live in the country, but for those of us living in urban or suburban environments I haven't found any type of camo that doesn't stick out like a sore thumb. There are too many different colors and shapes to consider. Anything short of a ghillie suit made of newspaper and garbage bags doesn't seem like it would offer too much of an advantage.

I really want there to be a pattern that would work in an urban environment but I haven't figured out what it would look like. It's quite possible that the best option would be simply to go gray man as possible.

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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by Langenator » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:39 am

In a normal, functioning urban/suburban environment, yeah, pretty much any camo pattern is going to look odd and attract attention, especially if you're fully dressed in it. (The scruffy looking guy in an old field jacket, or worn surplus pants, not so much, unless you're in a nice neighborhood.)

Now, in a PAW, abandoned city scenario - think Grozny, Aleppo, Stalingrad, etc - anything dull and earth tone-ish would be appropriate. You might be able to make use of greys, but greens shades are probably out.

The pattern I most have in mine is the A-TACS basic pattern, but I don't have any pics.
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by teotwaki » Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:35 am

In the city I'd agree with earth tones and dark shades of other colors but the clothing should be rugged, fit well, the boots comfortable and so on. Ideally the clothing should be made of modern fabrics and transition well into outdoors living. Examples below

Image

Image

Image


These two show blue jeans which I am not crazy about in terms of being made with cotton but in lots of environments they'd be fine.

Image

Image

Overall more of an outdoors look but not tacti-cool
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by Zimmy » Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:43 am

I use my faded and stained Carhart work jacket and bib overalls. The faded coyote like tan of the cotton duck always matches a large portion of the colors in North Texas.

I guess I could pour some dye or spray paint them a little but it works great.

Nothing else I've spent money on work quite as well except some old swiss surplus stuff with the red dots mixed in (during late spring and early summer only though).
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Maeklos
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by Maeklos » Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:36 pm

For urban, always keep in mind the "engineer's raincoat", too - just a heavy duty trash bag/contractor bag with a hole punched in the bottom for your head, and a hole in each of the bottom corners for your arms. Pull it over your head like a poncho and belt it. Can muck it up as much as you want - it's disposable. Mud, dirt, leaves, debris. Makes skulking around easier. And if you run across people, they might tend to leave you alone if you smell like a transient.
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by woodsghost » Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:47 am

I"ll bet if we are in a zombie apocalypse (or any other type of event), we would all smell like transients. Just my suspicion, should shower facilities ever become a luxury.
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by Langenator » Sun Mar 27, 2016 9:00 am

There's a difference between smelling like sweat and dirt, and smelling of cheap booze, piss, and/or vomit.
Last edited by Langenator on Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by Evan the Diplomat » Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:21 am

woodsghost wrote:I"ll bet if we are in a zombie apocalypse (or any other type of event), we would all smell like transients. Just my suspicion, should shower facilities ever become a luxury.
Funny you should mention that, I recall staying at a "resort" in Venezuela. It was very rustic and the weather was very hot and the power had gone out for several hours so there was no running water because of no pump. But a big rainstorm came and I ran outside and my swimsuit and a bar of soap and enjoyed a shower under the deluge. Refreshing.

Back to the subject at hand, here are my camouflage preferences:
The best camo? The 1942 Oak Type A. It is reversible for fall/spring or arid/wooded. Too bad the damn Nazis had to spoil it for everyone.

An updated version would be a brushed nylon reversible smock with wicking properties or maybe DWR.

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I am surprised that no one has mentioned the Chinese plateau pattern, also known as Tibetarn. The pattern is identical to the German Flecktarn but uses different colorways in various shades of brown and black.
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Because I have spent time in Greece visiting my in-laws I have warmed up to the Greek lizard pattern. It is now available in digital but I have not seen it available to the public. Thanks to the Chinese you can buy what appears to be an ACU cut uniform through Ali Baba express. Here is an image.Image


Lastly, I would say that I like the tiger stripe pattern, but never liked the heavy use of black. The Chinese have come out with a Multicam colored version of Tiger stripe. Again available on the Ali Baba express sets can be purchased for as little as $53
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Re: Let's talk camouflage

Post by jeepinbandtrider » Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:09 pm

Considering the areas I live and play most of what I have is on the greenish side of the spectrum. I have some solid tan and some DCUs, and my "issued" MARPAT Desert but that's the expcetion. I've found that in my areas (North Central Texas and SOCAL) unless you are in the no kidding desert areas like west Texas and the desert between Ocotillo, CA and Yuma, AZ greenish type camos work for most of the places I've been.

M81 Woodland, ATACS-FG (probably my favorite with M81 woodland close behind), MARPAT Woodland and for the most part Multicam all work in MY areas. These may or may not work in YOUR area.
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