Potentially stupid black powder question

[TheLastRifleMan]

Paper cartridges do not work in pistols with cylinders. They make powder flasks which dispense a set load of powder. The best thing for fast reloads on BP Remingtons is extra cylinders. You carry loaded spares, just like round magazines.

I have used paper cartridges on numerous occasions. It took some research and some experiments but you can do it, as I mentioned in my previous posts in this thread. I don't like flasks for loading directly into the chambers of the cylinder for safety reasons.

Indeed, the fastest reload for the 1858 is another cylinder. I was always wanted to get another for mine just for this reason. I would still have to have a gunsmith check the new cylinder for timing and fit just to be one the safe side.

One other thing I forgot to mention that I found worked quite well when I made paper cartridges is a drop tube for the powder charge. I used a 36" length of brass tubing with a small funnel epoxied to one end for this. I clamped it to my loading bench and poured my charge of powder right into my rolled paper cartridges. This was a method used by many loaders of metallic black powder re loaders to settle the powder granules, giving more space in the cartridge and gives better ignition and thus accuracy. I used brass to prevent any chance of static electricity or spark igniting the powder, just as the old timers did.

Did it work? I really could not tell much difference in ignition, but accuracy did increase a little bit.

[mantis]

Rather than messing with measuring powder for my muzzle loader rifle, I use pyrodex .50/50 pellets. Each .50 cal pellet is the equivalent of 50 grains of black powder. For a standard load in my rifle, it's two pyrodex pellets. Three if I want a magnum load (not all rifles can handle this only those marked as such do) and off I go. Not sure if that is an option in pistols though - I have no muzzle loader pistol experience.

[BigBossMan]

$900K? Are you kidding me? For an original 1847?

I shit you not.

Written by Auction Central News Staff
Tuesday, 28 October 2008 13:50

FAIRFIELD, Maine - With the world economy under siege, a Colt Walker pistol came out blazing to set a record at James D. Julia Inc.’s firearms auction Oct. 7. The rare and historic Colt Whitneyville-Walker pistol, made for use in the Mexican War, sold for $920,000, inclusive of the 15 percent buyer’s premium.

Considered the finest example of a martial Colt Walker extant, the pistol had been estimated to sell for $500,000 to $1 million. The sale price represents the most expensive single firearm ever sold in North America and is believed to be the most expensive ever sold in the world.

The historic Colt was issued at Vera Cruz in 1847 to Pvt. Sam Wilson, a Texas Ranger. Brevet Maj. Gen. John Reese Kenly of Maryland eventually obtained the gun after Wilson was killed in the war.

Read more: http://acn.liveauctioneers.com/index.ph ... z1oky8Syuz

Here is a picture of the beauty.

[TheLastRifleMan]

$900K? Are you kidding me? For an original 1847?

I shit you not.

Written by Auction Central News Staff
Tuesday, 28 October 2008 13:50

FAIRFIELD, Maine - With the world economy under siege, a Colt Walker pistol came out blazing to set a record at James D. Julia Inc.’s firearms auction Oct. 7. The rare and historic Colt Whitneyville-Walker pistol, made for use in the Mexican War, sold for $920,000, inclusive of the 15 percent buyer’s premium.

Considered the finest example of a martial Colt Walker extant, the pistol had been estimated to sell for $500,000 to $1 million. The sale price represents the most expensive single firearm ever sold in North America and is believed to be the most expensive ever sold in the world.

The historic Colt was issued at Vera Cruz in 1847 to Pvt. Sam Wilson, a Texas Ranger. Brevet Maj. Gen. John Reese Kenly of Maryland eventually obtained the gun after Wilson was killed in the war.

Read more: http://acn.liveauctioneers.com/index.ph ... z1oky8Syuz

Here is a picture of the beauty.

Damn, that is in nice shape! But 9/10ths of a mil? Wow.

[BigBossMan]

Damn, that is in nice shape! But 9/10ths of a mil? Wow.

Tell me about it. I'd have that thing on a pedestal and worship it like that missile in Beneath the Planet of the Apes.

[TheLastRifleMan]

Damn, that is in nice shape! But 9/10ths of a mil? Wow.

Tell me about it. I'd have that thing on a pedestal and worship it like that missile in Beneath the Planet of the Apes.

Indeed!

[Shiloh]

I just saw a video of someone shooting a Walker.

Holy crap. Do you need to pop smoke or call in grid coordinates before you blast one of those off?!

[Kommander]

I am under the impression that one is to never transfer powder directly from the flask to the cylinder/chamber. My starter kit came with a small variable brass powder measure and it worked quite well.

[dallas]

That is because of concerns about a spark setting off your flask. I use a special flask with a seperate measure section. I also have several cylinders which I rotate. I never reload a freshly shot cylinder. If I do take it off and reload it, I swab it first.

[jor-el]

Paper cartridges do not work in pistols with cylinders. They make powder flasks which dispense a set load of powder. The best thing for fast reloads on BP Remingtons is extra cylinders. You carry loaded spares, just like round magazines.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index. ... ic=37269.0

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusio ... id/263754/

Strange. I haven't traveled through time to be sure of this, but I recall in the accessory listings of common Civil War leather goods, the listing of cartridge boxes in pistol calibers as well as cylinder pouches.
People, being what they are, would always elect to have convenient goods instead of cheaper goods to save time and space. Paper cartridges cut loading time even though they are delicate, prone to breakage and costlier than loose powder and shot. I would imagine it doubly so in field conditions in wartime.

As mentioned elsewhere, spare cylinders need to be loaded and cleaned at some point.

[Kommander]

That is because of concerns about a spark setting off your flask. I use a special flask with a seperate measure section. I also have several cylinders which I rotate. I never reload a freshly shot cylinder. If I do take it off and reload it, I swab it first.

This was on an Colt 1860 Army so the cylinder swap was not an option. I thought about getting one of those nicer flasks, but since my revolver was stolen there is no point.

[jor-el]

That is because of concerns about a spark setting off your flask. I use a special flask with a seperate measure section. I also have several cylinders which I rotate. I never reload a freshly shot cylinder. If I do take it off and reload it, I swab it first.

This was on an Colt 1860 Army so the cylinder swap was not an option. I thought about getting one of those nicer flasks, but since my revolver was stolen there is no point.

There's really only the Remington style frames that a cylinder swap is going to work ala High Plains Drifter or Pale Rider. Only the Remington has the T handled cylinder pin to do the swap w/o tools. Rodgers and Spencers, as well as factory Ruger Old Armys require turning a captive screw 90 degrees with a screwdriver or a penny to do the same thing.

To do that with a Colt from the Civil War era or earlier you would have to undo the wedge retaining screw and wedge, pull off the barrel assembly, pull off the used cylinder, slip on a loaded cylinder, replace the barrel assembly, replace the wedge, screw on the retaining pin. Really like to see someone do all that on a moving horse, and while under fire.

[northernxposure]

Rather than messing with measuring powder for my muzzle loader rifle, I use pyrodex .50/50 pellets. Each .50 cal pellet is the equivalent of 50 grains of black powder. For a standard load in my rifle, it's two pyrodex pellets. Three if I want a magnum load (not all rifles can handle this only those marked as such do) and off I go. Not sure if that is an option in pistols though - I have no muzzle loader pistol experience.

Be aware that while pellets are convenient, they rarely offer the best possible accuracy for a given load as well as requiring a hotter primer. They also cost a LOT more than the equivalent weight of loose powder.

The also approximated grain count for each pellet is based off of a 2F scale - so if you are used to using a 3F load in your rifle the total grain numbers will be different. For example, 150gr 2F = 120gr 3F, so don't put 150gr 3F in the rifle.

Mucho expensive Walker is very, very sexy.

NXP

[TheLastRifleMan]

I just saw a video of someone shooting a Walker.

Holy crap. Do you need to pop smoke or call in grid coordinates before you blast one of those off?!

Pretty much. It is a lot of fun to shoot, though.

I still would like to get a brass frame Remington 1858 for my collection. I would be nice to have both versions and the brass framed ones, as far as replicas, can be found fairly cheap.

[Skull_Hide]

Just to throw in my opinions and what I do.

I've never had a chainfire from the cylinder, I use oversized balls/ conicals, in my opinion this removes the need for grease or felt wads.

I've never had and kinda don't believe in a chainfire from a spark from one nipple to another. Yes grease would remove any possibility but pistols are meant to use #10 caps, the #11 are meant for long guns, you can use 11's, they have more spark behind them but they are slightly larger, barely.

I'll load directly from flask to cylinder with a flask or sometimes to a powder measure.

And for my blackpowder revolver of choice, SS Ruger Old Army. /thread

[TheLastRifleMan]

Just to throw in my opinions and what I do.

I've never had a chainfire from the cylinder, I use oversized balls/ conicals, in my opinion this removes the need for grease or felt wads.

I've never had and kinda don't believe in a chainfire from a spark from one nipple to another. Yes grease would remove any possibility but pistols are meant to use #10 caps, the #11 are meant for long guns, you can use 11's, they have more spark behind them but they are slightly larger, barely.

I'll load directly from flask to cylinder with a flask or sometimes to a powder measure.

And for my blackpowder revolver of choice, SS Ruger Old Army. /thread

I have seen a chain fire take place. Granted it was only two chambers going off at once (the one in line with the barrel and the next one to the right) but it was enough to scare the shooter terribly. This was from an 1852 .36 replica and no grease or wads were used. So I grease up or used lubed wads. Especially in my Remington since the lube keeps power fouling soft, making it less likely to seize the cylinder and much easier to clean at the end of the shooting day.

I have had problems with No. 10 caps fitting on the nipples of my repro revolvers whereas the No. 11's have always seemed to have worked well.

Also, loading from a flask to the chamber is a big no no everywhere I have every shot BP rifles, pistols or revolvers. Why take the chance? I have also seen flasks dump half or quarters charges without the shooter knowing. When you used a separate measure, you can tell. Just the way I was taught and how I load now.

[s.leinicke]

I do a fair bit of black powder shooting, but normally my Uncle loads everything for me.

Generally you want to use actual black powder (goex or swiss are two of the more popular brands)
Cast your own soft lead bullets (Lee molds are the most popular)
and make your own lube (50/50 mix of beeswax and motor oil)

Once you start playing around with the stuff you can easily get your hands on it's an infinite amount of tinkering between different lubes, bullets, and black powder charges/grains. It's not an easy hobby to pick up and I wouldn't go to skirmishes if it weren't for my Uncle.

If you really want to get started try to find an NSSA event in your area (http://www.n-ssa.org/), bring a notebook, and talk to everyone there. Everyone has their own way of doing things, it's just finding what works best for you and your firearm.

(Some good places to start: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/ , http://www.dixiegunworks.com/)

[s.leinicke]

Oh and more in line with your original question:

Black powder isn't less expensive than anything. Primers, powder, lube, and lead are all really expensive. You can perhaps get a decent revolver for 250-300 dollars, but they will not be accurate. In competition people regularly miss 6" tiles at 25 yards. On top of all that you can expect to spend approx 2 hours in your basement making 100 rounds worth of ammunition.

[jor-el]

Accuracy issues are likely because of using volume based loading equipment and loading bullets by hand to somewhat inconsistent chamber depths. Also, percussion caps could be fitted at less than ideal positions with inconsistent ignition as a result. There are reasons fixed ammunition in cartridges won out over loose powder and ball. Black powder or its substitutes are not intrinsically inaccurate. Look at BPCRs. Billy Dixon's performance at Adobe Walls is an extreme example, but as recent as the turn of the century Creedmoor range hosted matches at up to 1000 yards.

[Maverick299]

For those of you that "roll your own" paper cartridges have you noticed a drop off in accuracy do to incomplete or inconsistant burns from the powder being wrapped in paper? I would imagine those paper loads are pretty sensitive to humidity with paper being a wood product that absorbs moisture. Maybe I am over thinking it, but seems like accuracy would differ from cartridge to cartridge due to not being able to wrap each one exactly the same way. I've shot plenty of BP rifles over the years but have never messed with the revolvers.

[TheLastRifleMan]

I did not notice any difference in accuracy. I was using only 15 grns. of FFFg powder out of my 1858 Remington which was a standard target load. I did notice a difference in ignition time using standard caps. Magnum caps seem to have solved to slower ignition times.

[Shiloh]

Sorry for the huge necro, but I've got another quick question. I've seen dozens of conflicting answers on this, so I come to ZS as usual.

Can I order a black powder revolver online and have it shipped to me in WA state? I seriously can't seem to find a straight answer. Thanks!

[Einher]

Sorry for the huge necro, but I've got another quick question. I've seen dozens of conflicting answers on this, so I come to ZS as usual.

Can I order a black powder revolver online and have it shipped to me in WA state? I seriously can't seem to find a straight answer. Thanks!

*-AFAIK as long as the design qualifies as an antique firearm, there is no restriction to having them shipped via mail, unlike modern firearms.
Antique firearm status avoids a great many restrictions placed on modern firearms, as they are barely regulated by the NFA and other federal guidelines.

*- please fact check this before proceeding; any legal advice given or received via forum should always be vetted before jumping into the pool.

I can''t think of any black powder firearms off the top of my head that are not considered 'antique firearms', but that doesn't mean they're not out there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in ... ted_States

I am not the most familiar with the state laws in Washington, but you should be clear with the Fed if you mail it.

[Shiloh]

Sorry for the huge necro, but I've got another quick question. I've seen dozens of conflicting answers on this, so I come to ZS as usual.

Can I order a black powder revolver online and have it shipped to me in WA state? I seriously can't seem to find a straight answer. Thanks!

*-AFAIK as long as the design qualifies as an antique firearm, there is no restriction to having them shipped via mail, unlike modern firearms.

*- please fact check this before proceeding; any legal advice given or received via forum should always be vetted before jumping into the pool.

I can''t think of any black powder firearms off the top of my head that are not considered 'antique firearms', but that doesn't mean they're not out there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in ... ted_States

Thank you very much. I'll do some more homework on it, just to be sure.