Potentially stupid black powder question

[Shiloh]

Lately, I've been getting more and more interested in traditional black powder guns, specifically the percussion cap pistols like the Colt 1851 or some of the old Remingtons. It seems that they're slightly less expensive than modern guns, and for plinking around on the range it seems like they'd be a fun choice. But obviously one of the downfalls is loading times; having to measure out the powder, load the ball, lube the cylinder, put the caps on, etc. etc.

But I ran across something earlier while browsing (my only one, that is) a book about the civil war. Paper cartridges! I know they were common in a lot of the muskets of that era, but would it work if I did the same thing with, say, a Pietta reproduction? Or is my limited knowledge in the black powder world rearing its ugly head?

[Einher]

Lately, I've been getting more and more interested in traditional black powder guns, specifically the percussion cap pistols like the Colt 1851 or some of the old Remingtons. It seems that they're slightly less expensive than modern guns, and for plinking around on the range it seems like they'd be a fun choice. But obviously one of the downfalls is loading times; having to measure out the powder, load the ball, lube the cylinder, put the caps on, etc. etc.

But I ran across something earlier while browsing (my only one, that is) a book about the civil war. Paper cartridges! I know they were common in a lot of the muskets of that era, but would it work if I did the same thing with, say, a Pietta reproduction? Or is my limited knowledge in the black powder world rearing its ugly head?

I'm not big into BP rifles, but AFAIK there are several 'self-contained' paper cartridge brands that can be used in a muzzle loader that sound like what you are describing, though (obviously) you'll have to prepare the loads into the cartridges yourself.

I'm by no means an authority on blackpowder/muzzleloaders/antique firearms so I don't know a great deal about them (any challenges, relative price, who makes them, who sells them) but I'm pretty sure they are out there at least.

[Confucius]

I've played with BP revolvers a bit, and honestly the loading isn't what takes me the longest, it's fiddling with those tiny little percussion caps...

[BigBossMan]

For muzzleloading rifles, I used to use these. You premeasured your powder charge and put a bullet in it. Then all you had to do was dump and ram.



I've never seen anything made like that for revolvers. Most people just buy extra cylinders and swap them out. You need to be extra careful with black powder revolvers and make sure you seal the end of each chamber with grease to prevent a chain fire.

You can also buy conversion cylinders that will fire metal cartridges.

[northernxposure]

I've played with BP revolvers a bit, and honestly the loading isn't what takes me the longest, it's fiddling with those tiny little percussion caps...

You've got to get a snap loader. They're awesome - all the caps are contained inline, with the tip just big enough to get on the nipple. Very quick to use, really helps with those crazy small openings on the old inline cap rifles.

NXP

[Kommander]

I tried making my own cartridges with cigarette paper but I found it to simply not be worth the effort.

[Confucius]

I've played with BP revolvers a bit, and honestly the loading isn't what takes me the longest, it's fiddling with those tiny little percussion caps...

You've got to get a snap loader. They're awesome - all the caps are contained inline, with the tip just big enough to get on the nipple. Very quick to use, really helps with those crazy small openings on the old inline cap rifles.

NXP

Got a link on something like that?

Sounds amazing...

[TheLastRifleMan]

To the OP: The title of your thread is misleading. There are NO stupid questions in regards to black powder guns or shooting them. Not asking questions can get you hurt.

I have done a lot of black powder shooting in my time, as a lot of folks here know. I have also done a fair bit of paper cartridge making for not
only my rifles but for my cap and ball revolvers as well. Here are some of the things that worked that I discovered for making and shooting paper cartridges in you revolvers:

The first thing is the paper. Cigarette rolling papers work the best but you do have to trim them. Get the kind with the tack strip on one end since this makes it a lot easier when trying to keep them rolled up will you fill them with powder. I have also used flattened out coffee maker filters with pretty good success, although they did not seem to burn as clean as the cigarette papers. I have heard of some folks treating the paper with a solution of potassium nitrate and water (dampening the paper with the solution and letting it completely dry) for better ignition and burn. While I have not tried it, this method goes back to the early 1700's. I can see it working but have not seen it necessary in the cartridges I made. Keep in mind both filter and cigarette papers are delicate and you can tear them up pretty easily.

The second thing is the caps themselves. The "magnum" percussion caps seem to set off the cartridge just about every time (no cap being 100% reliable), especially with the coffee filter paper. Standard No. 11 percussion caps sometime did not set off the powder charge. Spend a little more and you won't regret it.

Lastly is lubing the chamber mouth after you ram the cartridge in place. You will want to do this after the cartridge is in place. This is a critical step because the lube will prevent the revolver from chain firing. You can use pre made lube made or make your own. Some folks like the pre lubed felt "wads" that any good gun shop sells. I really like these since they are convenient and work great. If you can't find pre lubed ones or only the non lubbed ones, you can lube them yourself by soaking them in melted lubricant. I really don't know of a way to put the lube in a paper cartridge without the lube either soaking into the paper or killing the powder charge.

You will have to experiment a bit with a few things such as the cartridge length for the power charge, rolling them, etc. But it can be done and it works today just as it did 150 years ago.

Confucious, try a company called Track of the Wolf or another called Ted Cash. You can find a big selection of these devices. Must good gun shops that sell black powder guns should have them. They do make capping the gun a lot easier.

[RickOShea]

Got a link on something like that?

Sounds amazing...

I have the first one.

http://www.tdcmfgstore.com/agora.cgi?product=ShootingSupplies

[Shiloh]

Awesome stuff, guys! Thanks! I'm really excited to see so many other people who are knowledgeable about this kind of stuff.

BigBossMan- Woah, those look cool, and really functional as well. How much would a couple of those cost, do you think? I had been thinking of buying a conversion cylinder as well, but then realized I wouldn't be able to get the ammo for it until I'm 21.

TheLastRifleMan- I am humbled in the presence of the master. *bows* Just a couple of questions, if you don't mind.

1. What exactly is the lubricant that I would use on a BP revolver? I've seen it before in a few videos I've watched, and it looked almost like some form of wax.

2. How many caps generally come in a...er, set? What exactly makes the No. 11 caps liable to not set off the charge?

3. What bullets do you mostly use with BP revolvers, in terms of weight and grain, etc?

4. Are there any relatively decent, inexpensive holsters that might fit the more common types of BP revolvers? I'm not quite getting into Wild Bill territory, but one day...

5. Do you have any opinions/experience with the Pietta revolvers? In my brief time looking at them, they seem like the least expensive option, but then again, you get what you pay for.

[Confucius]

Got a link on something like that?

Sounds amazing...

I have the first one.

http://www.tdcmfgstore.com/agora.cgi?product=ShootingSupplies

That is too cool, thanks.

[northernxposure]

Got a link on something like that?

Sounds amazing...

I have the first one.

http://www.tdcmfgstore.com/agora.cgi?product=ShootingSupplies

That is too cool, thanks.

Yup - those are them. I've got all three versions of the straight line. Best. Purchase. Ever.

...

1. What exactly is the lubricant that I would use on a BP revolver? I've seen it before in a few videos I've watched, and it looked almost like some form of wax.

I've used TC's Bore Butter, it works well for me.

2. How many caps generally come in a...er, set? What exactly makes the No. 11 caps liable to not set off the charge?

I usually buy them by the tin, so maybe 50 or so? I also like the 1075 Magnums, though have heard good things about the CCI Magnums too. Don't get them wet/humid as it ignites toward the nipple.

3. What bullets do you mostly use with BP revolvers, in terms of weight and grain, etc?

I've got a 36cal and a 44cal. Both shoot round ball, though I've been tempted to try a Keith style in the 44.

4. Are there any relatively decent, inexpensive holsters that might fit the more common types of BP revolvers? I'm not quite getting into Wild Bill territory, but one day...

Depending on what style of BP pistol you get, there's definitely a holster for it. Especially with all the Cowboy Action shooting out there, a lot of people use the Army/Navy conversions so any holster for those will likely fit the BP version.


5. Do you have any opinions/experience with the Pietta revolvers? In my brief time looking at them, they seem like the least expensive option, but then again, you get what you pay for.

Never used one.

NXP

[BigBossMan]

Awesome stuff, guys! Thanks! I'm really excited to see so many other people who are knowledgeable about this kind of stuff.

BigBossMan- Woah, those look cool, and really functional as well. How much would a couple of those cost, do you think? I had been thinking of buying a conversion cylinder as well, but then realized I wouldn't be able to get the ammo for it until I'm 21.

The rifle speedloaders are around 5-6 dollars. The cartridge conversion cylinders will run you around $230 on Midwayusa.

[jor-el]

Try here.

http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php

There is a working theory that some chain ignitions in cap and ball revolvers are the result not of a spark getting past a fitted ball to the powder charge, but of sparks from one priming cap igniting an adjacent priming cap. There is some credence to this as some reproduction C+B revolvers have undersize nipples, leaving some caps loose on the nipples. The gap even when the cap is crimped oto the nipple can be large enough to let a spark slip by. Hence, the nipple guard.

[TheLastRifleMan]

TheLastRifleMan- I am humbled in the presence of the master. *bows* Just a couple of questions, if you don't mind.
No problem and thanks! Looks like some other folks were able to answer some of your questions. Maybe I can elaborate a bit more.

How many caps generally come in a...er, set? What exactly makes the No. 11 caps liable to not set off the charge?

CCI Magnums cup in tins of 100. Buy them in 1000 count, it's a bit cheaper. When I rolled the cartridges, I used a wooden dowel that was a bit smaller then the .44 bore, then after trimming for length, I folded one end over, placed in my charge of powder and ball, then twisted the remaining paper carefully. With the fold at the bottom, I think it took a hotter, more intense spark to burn through the paper and set it off.

The cartridges tend to tear or rip when you are ramming them into the chamber. No big deal since the are already in place and sealed by the ball.

I have used round ball and conical bullets in both my 1858 Remington repro and my 1847 Walker copy with the round ball shooting very well out of the Remington and decent out of the Walker. Conical slugs were better out of the 1847 but harder to load since keeping them straight while levering them onto the powder charge was a bit tricky. If you get into casting your own bullets, round ball molds are cheaper and easier to cast.

For the 1858, I tend to use 15 grains of FFFg powder for a target load and 30 grains FFFg for a full power defensive load, both with a ball weighing about 130 grains. The 1847 is a monster in size and powder charge capacity. With a round ball, I can get 55 grains of FFFg in each chamber but only about 50 grains with a conical. My dad's 1860 Colt replica only holds a max of 25 grains of FFFg but he had found 20 grains works the best. The closer you have the ball to the barrel, the better for most revolvers. If you have a brass framed gun, stick to very low power charges, no more then 15 grains or you can stretch the frame and then the revolver goes out of time.

Jor El had an interesting point about chain firing from the rear. I do think he has something there, as I have heard of some cap and ball shooters putting lube, such as T/C's Bore Butter, not only on the chamber mouth but on the outside of the caps AFTER they have been placed on the nipple.

[BigBossMan]

I've gotten to fire a Walker. Those things are monsters. You don't even need to load one. It's so big you could just beat someone to death with it.

[SeaDog]

A real Walker or a replica? Those are so freakin' cool. I've always wanted one. Would really like a Walker conversion. Hard to beat. Love my cowboy guns. I have a Colt SSA, a Winchester 1892, and a 1873. All .45 long colt. Love'em all.

Sent from my LG-C800 using Xparent Green Tapatalk

[SeaDog]

Colt SAA. Sorry. Typoed on the cell phone.

Sent from my LG-C800 using Xparent Green Tapatalk

[Shiloh]

Thanks for all the great stuff, guys! I'm starting to get into the history of the "wild west" so to speak (After my nerd-boner for the hundred years' war has gone away, that is. ) and I'm glad to hear that getting into a hobby like this isn't as intimidating as I first thought.

[SeaDog]

Thanks for all the great stuff, guys! I'm starting to get into the history of the "wild west" so to speak...

You can have a lot of fun with cowboy action shooting. Check out the single action shooting society's website. Some pretty cool stuff. There website is also a good place to get target ammo for anyone shooting .357, .38 special, or .45 long colt.

Sent from my LG-C800 using Xparent Green Tapatalk

[BigBossMan]

A real Walker or a replica? Those are so freakin' cool. I've always wanted one. Would really like a Walker conversion. Hard to beat. Love my cowboy guns. I have a Colt SSA, a Winchester 1892, and a 1873. All .45 long colt. Love'em all.

An Uberti replica Walker. Only 1100 real Walkers were ever made. I remember there was one that auctioned for over $900,000. Even if I got the chance to fire a real one, I dunno if I could bring myself to do it.

[dallas]

Paper cartridges do not work in pistols with cylinders. They make powder flasks which dispense a set load of powder. The best thing for fast reloads on BP Remingtons is extra cylinders. You carry loaded spares, just like round magazines.

[RickOShea]

An Uberti replica Walker. Only 1100 real Walkers were ever made. I remember there was one that auctioned for over $900,000. Even if I got the chance to fire a real one, I dunno if I could bring myself to do it.

And less than 200 still exist today.

[TheLastRifleMan]

A real Walker or a replica? Those are so freakin' cool. I've always wanted one. Would really like a Walker conversion. Hard to beat. Love my cowboy guns. I have a Colt SSA, a Winchester 1892, and a 1873. All .45 long colt. Love'em all.

Sent from my LG-C800 using Xparent Green Tapatalk

A CVA replica. It is a lot of fun to shoot. Other folks on the pistol ranges stare at its size and choke on it's epic quantity of smoke when it's fired with a 55 gr. FFFg charge. Recoil is substantial but not punishing at all due to it's massive weight.

Just everything about a Walker or Dragoon for that matter just screams HUGE.

$900K? Are you kidding me? For an original 1847?