Tomahawks

[HuevosRancheros]

Howdy All,
Thanks for the SOG hawk handle update. It's amazing to think about all the force expended through the handles of such tools as we swing them and how much shock to the heads and fulcrum points. Anyhow, I like the point that Foxx has made. In general he brings up important points about differences in environment, flora and fauna inAOs. Sometimes general advice can be just too general...

Having said all that, in a Florida zombie /PAW event I think a tomahawk is nicely suited to a scrub-brush situation ... though I must admit I haven't thought about machetes.

Does anyone have any ideas or experience with "cane-knives"? How do y'all feel they would work in bug-out, zombie, PAW situation?

Thanks!

[Storm Crow]

The rabbet tang used on SOG 'hawks and CS Trench 'Hawks is a craptacular design. My immediate reaction on seeing the rabbet tang and wooden handle on the SOGs when they came out several years ago was to think, "Those will break on the first or second swing." Sure enough, they pretty quickly recalled them and started using synthetic handles. They can kind of get away with it because of the synthetics, but it's still a bad design.

I'm really unimpressed with their choice of stainless steel, which is inherently more brittle than carbon, on a tomahawk.

[foxx]

The rabbet tang used on SOG 'hawks and CS Trench 'Hawks is a craptacular design. My immediate reaction on seeing the rabbet tang and wooden handle on the SOGs when they came out several years ago was to think, "Those will break on the first or second swing." Sure enough, they pretty quickly recalled them and started using synthetic handles. They can kind of get away with it because of the synthetics, but it's still a bad design.

I'm really unimpressed with their choice of stainless steel, which is inherently more brittle than carbon, on a tomahawk.

I was at Wal-Mart, they had the SOG Fasthawks for $20. I thought it would make for a good disposable tool. You know, leave it in the truck, or throw it till it breaks, then return it. I've been suprised at how tough the steel and the handle are. I typically pratice everyday with my 44oz GG&G Battlehawk and/or my Ranger Renegade, they can take a beating for sure. I weight just over 200lbs, and go full force on dead trees and some old fence posts I have hanging in a shed. I've thrown the Fasthawk over and over again, used it full force against those posts, and it's only got minor chipping on the edge. Those chips are from hitting rocks when they miss the target and go tumbling across the field, hit the fence, etc..
My advice, get something better if you're going to depend on it. But, for $20, it's fun to beat on. The spike sucks for pentration, the edge is all wrong for many reasons. It's made flat, and it's too obtuse for wood cutting. It's a middle of the road utility tool, for what use I don't know, beating on I guess.

[Storm Crow]

I was at Wal-Mart, they had the SOG Fasthawks for $20. I thought it would make for a good disposable tool. You know, leave it in the truck, or throw it till it breaks, then return it. I've been suprised at how tough the steel and the handle are. I typically pratice everyday with my 44oz GG&G Battlehawk and/or my Ranger Renegade, they can take a beating for sure. I weight just over 200lbs, and go full force on dead trees and some old fence posts I have hanging in a shed. I've thrown the Fasthawk over and over again, used it full force against those posts, and it's only got minor chipping on the edge. Those chips are from hitting rocks when they miss the target and go tumbling across the field, hit the fence, etc..
My advice, get something better if you're going to depend on it. But, for $20, it's fun to beat on. The spike sucks for pentration, the edge is all wrong for many reasons. It's made flat, and it's too obtuse for wood cutting. It's a middle of the road utility tool, for what use I don't know, beating on I guess.

And for that, they are what they are. My problem is that according to a recent Blade magazine article, they're one of the top bladed implements bought for personal carry by soldiers, who by definition need to be able to depend on their equipment.

If you want that design, go with the American Tomahawk Company LaGana 'Hawk. It's an absolutely solid piece of gear and well-designed, though I do like the spike on the Cold Steel variant better (though I wouldn't crry a wooden handled 'hawk into battle; they break!).

[praharin]

SOG Fasthawks for $20 --> disposable tool.

I bought one as well for the same reason. It's nice to have it for those times when I don't want to risk losing one of my more expensive tools.

[averagemutt]

Having said all that, in a Florida zombie /PAW event I think a tomahawk is nicely suited to a scrub-brush situation ... though I must admit I haven't thought about machetes.

Ontario Camp Machete 12'' of 1095 carbon steel for ten bucks. That's a FL bush knife.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=rat+machete&hl=en&client=firefox-a&cid=8206037060816922181&ei=O5AsT_CCJ4TlsQfisNGYBQ&ved=0CAoQrhI

[foxx]

I know what you mean StormCrow. I would never recommend the SOG's as real tools or weapons. It's a poor design in many ways. The stainless steel is a bad choice, so is the way it mounts to the handle.
Yeah, for $20, the Ontario Cutlass Machete is the better tool. The weight forward design allows for pretty deep bites in wood. I know you have to put an edge on it, I convexed mine, and my 18" Ontarios. The handles kinda suck, come on Ontario change the mold shape a bit! I should be smaller.

I put hickory scales on mine, and re-used the original rivets, only cost to me was epoxy and sandpaper. 2nd blade down.

[Paul J]

Gents, you should check Daniel Winklers site, (sorry not good with hyperlinking) and have a look at the WK2 combat axe, that is what the pro's carry.

[by-the-throat]

Gents, you should check Daniel Winklers site, (sorry not good with hyperlinking) and have a look at the WK2 combat axe, that is what the pro's carry.

http://www.winklerknives.com/knives.asp?id=160

Looks pretty sick, I have to say...but my heart belongs to Mr. Winkler's traditional 'hawks.

[Paul J]

thanks man, tried to post a pic, but my skills are weak

[Turtlewolf]

Gents, you should check Daniel Winklers site, (sorry not good with hyperlinking) and have a look at the WK2 combat axe, that is what the pro's carry.

I've spent less than half $600 on tools that I consider just as good-although I haven't used any of Winkler's stuff and probably won't as at $600 there is a lot of stuff I know I'ld rather have.
cheers

[foxx]

I chose to place an order for a Winkler-Sayoc RnD hawk because of it's tapered tang, handle eros, and numerous reviews of his hawks.
Sure, they are expensive, but they are labor intensive and handmade. I trust the fact that these are designed by a Master Bladesmith and a highly skilled figher. This is made to be carried, deployed very quickly, and used in CQC, only as a back up to firearms. The knife edge and spike are designed to puncture and lacerate, causing lots of pain.
The tapered tang and skeletonized design puts the weight right in the head, like a hawk should be. I have not seen any other full length tapered tang tomawhawks. Enjoy the pics....

[Turtlewolf]

Damn Foxx, I didn't say they were junk!
Just that I was cheap .
Thanks for the porn though!
Are you going to do a field test?
cheers

[foxx]

We'll see, I'm getting the RnD with the front spike. Since it's not really made for chopping wood, I'll need to get a pig skull. That's kinda gross and fun at the same time.
I only have the plastic trainer right now, and I can guess that it's gonig to be very aggressive. The only video where a Winkler hawk is used is from EdWood.
He used the front spike to pierce a level III kevlar vest, with just a simple thrust. I can only imagine a full power swing into a skull analog will be a massive wound. I could see it cause a deep puncture, and a very deep gash, if not a cracked skull.

[Turtlewolf]

We'll see, I'm getting the RnD with the front spike. Since it's not really made for chopping wood, I'll need to get a pig skull. That's kinda gross and fun at the same time.
I only have the plastic trainer right now, and I can guess that it's gonig to be very aggressive. The only video where a Winkler hawk is used is from EdWood.
He used the front spike to pierce a level III kevlar vest, with just a simple thrust. I can only imagine a full power swing into a skull analog will be a massive wound. I could see it cause a deep puncture, and a very deep gash, if not a cracked skull.

Do you live in an area where feral hogs are an issue? If so, do you hunt?
If you do then you could have an endless supply of free pork and free pig skulls.
I think getting a tool such as that with the front spike limits it's usefulness, but everything for me is a bush tool first and I can understand if someone wanted a weapon first it may have merit.
cheers

[Paul J]

@ turtlewolf, the lads who carry those on their fighting kit have a rather specific and unusual purpose for it, I was under the impression it was carried as a weapon or breaching tool , turns out i was wrong.

[foxx]

I'm just a tomahawk fan. I have lots of knives, machetes, a few axes, but I love tomahawks. I can go out in the bush with lots of tools, knives, machetes, a big 12" long chopper, but not this Winkler.
All my other full tang tomahawks have certain balance issues. Mostly, they just don't have the mass distribution correct. They have too much weight in the handles, and not in the head. For a fighting hawk, I feel they need a certain feel that allows it to become an extension of your arm. Like a proper sword, the correct balance makes it fast and almost effortless, not clumsy. My other hawks are clumsy.
Yeah, I'm getting it because it's a weapon. I admit it has a limited use, just like my .357 magnum! I considered a combat axe or even Dan's campers hatchet, but they are quite expensive for woods tools, IMO. I can chop wood just fine with what I have already.
The Winkler Sayoc RnD is a pure fighter, Dan says it can do some breaching, others have used it that way. I have other hawks for different uses, I train with them, and hope I never need to fight with one, or at all. But, I it ever came to a PAW, I'll have the Winkler on me for sure.

[URBAN ASSAULT]

@ turtlewolf, the lads who carry those on their fighting kit have a rather specific and unusual purpose for it, I was under the impression it was carried as a weapon or breaching tool , turns out i was wrong.

Well, now I'm very confused. If these gentlemen are carrying tomahawks into harms way and they aren't being used as weapons or for breaching a door/window, exactly what is the specific and unusual purpose they ARE for?

Crocheting for victory?
Puppet shows to terrify the indigenous population?
Tactical gardening?
Absolutely the worst surgical tool ever for podiatry?

What?

-urban

[Storm Crow]

@ turtlewolf, the lads who carry those on their fighting kit have a rather specific and unusual purpose for it, I was under the impression it was carried as a weapon or breaching tool , turns out i was wrong.

Care to elucidate?

[Paul J]

Urban, sorry bro not my opsec to violate, close to option 4 on your list.
edited to add it was a bonehead move to mention
anything about it anyway. sorry don't mean to sound like a dick.

[Storm Crow]

close to option 4 on your list.

Sounds like it's used to hamstring the opponent in that case.

Though it also did a good job of penetrating the shoulder of a Kevlar vest on a bad guy during a raid on a Mexican drug house, saving the life of an officer in the process.

[foxx]

close to option 4 on your list.

Sounds like it's used to hamstring the opponent in that case.

Though it also did a good job of penetrating the shoulder of a Kevlar vest on a bad guy during a raid on a Mexican drug house, saving the life of an officer in the process.

That's a perfect example of how it can be used in a non-lethal fashion. How many times would you have to stab the same bad guy, with the average combat knife to have stopped his attack? Then, he may die later from blood loss or internal injuries. The weight of the hawk's head allows for that powerful fast hit, which can be controlled quite well. I bet that spike hurt like hell!

[Storm Crow]

That's a perfect example of how it can be used in a non-lethal fashion.

The guy swinging the 'hawk was aiming for the head.

[praharin]

@ turtlewolf, the lads who carry those on their fighting kit have a rather specific and unusual purpose for it, I was under the impression it was carried as a weapon or breaching tool , turns out i was wrong.

The guys at Sayoc designed the RnD hawk for fighting. The guys being issued them are getting trained by Sayoc Global in how to use them properly. Perhaps the guys using them have some special use for it, but I have a sinking feeling that "opsec" is why you aren't telling.

That's a perfect example of how it can be used in a non-lethal fashion.

The guy swinging the 'hawk was aiming for the head.

And as I recall the victim was in a hand to hand struggle with another officer at the time.