Bowmanship Thread

[northernxposure]

Savage Archer - *waves hand* I shoot 3 under. More of a two under with the 3rd finger just resting on the string.

There are a few benefits to it, but just as many minuses (if not more actually). The guy in the video is gap shooting by the looks of it. Gap shooting uses a known point of reference to account for trajectory. Usually it's the tip of the arrow, and that's why getting the arrow so close to the eye helps so much, you can sight down the shaft to determine left/right placement, and if you know the "point on" distance (eg, if you place the tip of the arrow on the target, the distance at which that point is dead on, say point on is 32yrds - if you draw back you know that putting the point of the arrow on the target will result in a 32yrd bullseye) you can compensate by placing the point above or below that "point on" distance to adjust for yardage.

It's very easy, and very quick once you know how fast your arrow is moving and it's trajectory. Just pull back, set, adjust for distance, and loose. The neat thing is, if you know the FPS of the setup, you can change bows/poundage/etc and nothing will change on the gap distance as long as the FPS stays the same - sort of like moving a pin sight around between compound bows.

My target rigs are setup like this, with multiple arrow/bow weight setups. All the setups are right around the same FPS regardless the weight/arrow setup.

Gypsyblood - Border figured out cross weave/lateral stability a LONG time ago with carbon lams. They damn near wrote the book - most of the Korean limbs have taken Border's concepts and basically made a variation on a theme with different materials in order to increase the performance. Centaur's cross weave carbon is pretty common for a mom/pop style bowyer here in the states, because the selection of carbon for lams isn't anything like what available in the more specialized markets. Still, dang pretty bows. The "Battle Axe" series just reminds me of the old Simon's tree sharks that someone blew up. Those things can do some damage, but talk about launching a steak knife at something!

NXP

[Kyle Ryder]

Ok, I've just run some basic back-yard tests.

A 180 lb Recurve Crossbow put up against an English 55 lb longbow.

Range was 15 - 17 Yards.

Target materials were industrial cardboard (4 layers) then the same with thick PPE overalls (designed for the oil and gas industry).



Interesting results. Roughly comparable but at full draw (or near to full draw) the longbow had the edge (at the end of the video) with easy pass throughs etc.

Now it's important to note that I don't think the 180 lb Barnett I was using was as full powered as the manufacturer claims. So about 150 lb strength imo.

[Kyle Ryder]

Already got a Shotgun but don't see why I should restrict myself to the easy thing that goes bang. Also they run out of ammo, make a noise and turn into a an expensive club when shells are no-where to be found

Unlike a Warbow, which runs out of ammo, makes a noise, and turns into an expensive staff when arrows are no-where to be found.

The way the country is going it won't be long before these are restricted to land-owners or the gentry. The ptb have been banning guns ever since the 30s, given the current trend it won't be long before shotguns are taken away as well.

Please do not walk the politics rule again. I would point out things like the criminalisation of archery equipment, the restrictions on defending one's self and the way you'd probably be convicted in the press if you used a warbow in a home defence situation. But I won't go into the depth of those points, suffice to say, please leave the politics outside the forum.

Ok listen, I don't want to get into a slanging match with a mod, but let's just say we can agree to disagree on those matters

A Warbow is the best, it's that simple.

Best at what? I mean, I'm a fan of the Warbow, I love them fun to shoot, fun to make, love the history, but I do my best not to be a Fanboy.

Erm, that's kind off like saying the Japanese shouldn't say the same about their samurai sword being the best.

Hell I'm a Briton so think it's only right that the warbow is the pinnacle, therefore the best of traditional bow development.

Warbows are the Most Efficient design: Incorrect, Flatbows and Recurves both have a more efficient design, giving greater cast for the same draw weight..

Agree to differ, if that were so they'd of been used in olde England.

Warbows are the Most Accurate: Incorrect, it's the Archers that are accurate, the bow has little to do with it. And the Simple design of the War bow doesn't make it more accurate.

I never said that AFAIR.

Bold responses Mr Adlan

[Ad'lan]

Erm, that's kind off like saying the Japanese shouldn't say the same about their samurai sword being the best.

Hell I'm a Briton so think it's only right that the warbow is the pinnacle, therefore the best of traditional bow development.

Favourite, no problem, most admired, no problem. But a Katana N00b is still a Katana N00b even if they are Japanese. Hell, even giving the massive historical favouritism (see some of my short rants/lectures on the bow) isn't an issue. It's when you start insisting the design is still relevant (like a Katana in your BOB) or choosing to use the less efficient tool while insisting it's the best. I mean, I like the Warbow, and a Traditional Recurve hang on my wall. If push came to shove and I had to use them for example, homestead defence, I would, because thats what I practice with and don't have a better tool to hand. If I were OTOH, planning what tool to use for HD, it wouldn't be a bow, and if it were a bow, it'd not be a Warbow except in very limited circumstances.

Warbows are the Most Efficient design: Incorrect, Flatbows and Recurves both have a more efficient design, giving greater cast for the same draw weight..

Agree to differ, if that were so they'd of been used in olde England.

I love it when people agree to dis agree about the laws of physical reality. It's simple fact that for a given lbage draw weight, different designs of bow are more or less efficient at converting the stored energy into motion of the string and thus, the arrow.

This is also ignoring my point about the ease of manufacture. Warbows are much easier to make into a high weight bow than a recurve or flatbow. And also ignoring the growing evidence that Slight Recurves began to be put into the bow in the later years of the warbow's use.

Warbows are the Most Accurate: Incorrect, it's the Archers that are accurate, the bow has little to do with it. And the Simple design of the War bow doesn't make it more accurate.

I never said that AFAIR.

Just addressing common points, not necessarily ones you raise. Consider it pre-emptive.

No one hear thinks you shouldn't get a Warbow, and learn to shoot in the good old english ways (please, don't use Olde, to me it's such an annoyingly fake usage, it might as well be the adjective for artificially aged shite), we're just pointing out where some of your statements clash with reality, and where if you idea is home defence, you might want to re-evaluate your weapon choices.


And we weren't arguing Longbow vs Crossbow at any point AFAIK.

[Quietus]

@ Kyle Ryder:

So national pride before facts?
Funny, since as far as I know, you are Irish, not English. More importantly, it is from a time BEFORE your island was anything more to the mainland, than a bunch of hairy guy who couldn't speak coherently. At a time in fact, when they were just beginning to take over the island why sending mainly Welsh nobles over there, to keep things under control and later on integrate themselves through intermarriage.
The next 600 or so years were basically war upon war. Mostly trying to regain independence. When Ireland finally entered a union with England, the bow was no longer used on the battlefield.
If I remember correctly, it was also the Welsh that got the whole archery thing started in England.

So how exactly can you include it in your national pride? That is not to different from me doing the same, on the basis that we were kicking all of your arses long before that. And we had plenty of bows.

Or I could claim that the Holmegaard bow is the best in every aspect. While it is a more efficient design than the English longbow, it is still not the best.

There are many very logical reasons why the D profile longbow became the bow of choice in England. But it was not because it is or even was, the best design.

If memory serves my right, you should instead be worshipping a comparatively short bow made of elm. I believe they were a flat profile as well.

As for the Japanese..
Sure, they feel about their swords, as you do about your bow. But that does not change the fact that the Vikings were making more advanced stuff, when the Japanese were still using plain iron.
Does that mean that ours are the best blades ever made?


Less fanboy'ism and more rationality, please.

[ninja-elbow]

Good points y'all, all ones I was fitting to make myself but I'm a Yank (and one that is more realted to horsebows and Holmgards anyways) so... you guys get this one

[Kissing-Tom]

Old School Combat Archery:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSSM9b0hbR0

View at the 10:30 minute. It was last year in Germany, me and my wife was there, it was amazing. (Please don´t look at the clothes, it wasn´t reenactment)

Pretty good in a casual day-out kinda way.

From about 13:00 they get the commands right and use the proper term 'loose' (abeit with a German slant)
I'm no expert on medieval accroutements of the Holy Roman Empire but did the German archers of olde use arrowbags like the English?
A lot of them are using back quivers (one guy has a bloody great arrow basket! Ye Gods!), nor did I see any planting arrows out in front of them for quick action either. Maybe it's just an English thing?
I suspect they are nearly all using reenactment bows / Holmguard bows / flat bows of sub-30 lb?

Well, in the medieval Germany wasn´t archery so popular like in England. But it was the same stuff like in England.
Here is a photo of me, with a handmade bowbag(the original was found in Sweden). Very practical. For 30 big arrows.


Here is a better picture of the quiver:http://shop.strato.de/epages/15502242.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/15502242/Products/53


Beste Grüße, Tom.

Being a re-creation / reenactment nerd... nice pic. Love me some good reenactment kit.

Gotland 950, ,I´m interested in the handcraft(?) in this time and I like the Jellinge-Art. My forefathers came frim this island, too,
so I must do this reenactment. I try to get the original submittals from this period and build them.
I make my clothes myself and colour them with natural products, like walnuts, onionskins,..etc.
What I can do myself, I do, only some handcraft I give away, like smithery. It´s a nice hobby. A little bit freaky,...

Haha, nice story:
Before two month I got a call from friends. They want go to the pubs. And I said:"Oh, I have no time, I have to embroider my tunic!"
My wife looked at me with wide opened eyes. I looked at her."What?!" Few seconds later I go to the phone, called my friend and went to drinking.
I must face, I´m a reenactment-nerd,...but then leastwise a drunken reenactment-nerd.=)

Beste Grüße, Tom

[ninja-elbow]

When I was a Re-enactment nerd (been out for about 9 years now) my interest was in pre-conversion scandihoovian and teutonic ... so pretty much the same period as your interest but stuck with the colder climbs of Geats and Norskis. I got into post conversion Byzantia (Varangians) towards the end and dabbled in bronze-age Scythians and later period Landsknecht.

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

]but having an 80 lb warbow that's still in the 'crossover' zone of hunting and warbow-levels would be a fine choice, especially with someone who is defending a settlement.
Don't forget, in Europe firearms are typically a lot less widespread in civilian areas, meaning that those with the bows will be well worth their while to a community

+

A WarBow is the BEST! It's THAT simple

+

samurai sword katanas yo! being the best.

=

I love you soooooo much right now, man. You are officially my favourite poster of all time, ever.

This thread needs more Erik...



----

Kissing-Tom, I like your re-enactment gear. Nice!

-

[ninja-elbow]

This has been an interesting thread so far, still haven't gotten an answer to who all shoots three fingers under but thats ok. I'm used to being passed over as a typical ZS thread tends to meander around like a drunken Scotchman with his kilt over his head.

I don't. On my longbow I shoot 2 under and my horsebow I only use 2 fingers all together, when not trying to shoot from the thumb << which I fail at regularly. I have zero idea if this is proper at all but I shoot instinctively son there 'aint much holding of the string anyways. It works pretty good for me.

[Kyle Ryder]

@ Kyle Ryder:

So national pride before facts?
Funny, since as far as I know, you are Irish, not English. More importantly, it is from a time BEFORE your island was anything more to the mainland, than a bunch of hairy guy who couldn't speak coherently. At a time in fact, when they were just beginning to take over the island why sending mainly Welsh nobles over there, to keep things under control and later on integrate themselves through intermarriage.
The next 600 or so years were basically war upon war. Mostly trying to regain independence. When Ireland finally entered a union with England, the bow was no longer used on the battlefield.
If I remember correctly, it was also the Welsh that got the whole archery thing started in England.

So how exactly can you include it in your national pride? That is not to different from me doing the same, on the basis that we were kicking all of your arses long before that. And we had plenty of bows.

Or I could claim that the Holmegaard bow is the best in every aspect. While it is a more efficient design than the English longbow, it is still not the best.

There are many very logical reasons why the D profile longbow became the bow of choice in England. But it was not because it is or even was, the best design.

If memory serves my right, you should instead be worshipping a comparatively short bow made of elm. I believe they were a flat profile as well.

As for the Japanese..
Sure, they feel about their swords, as you do about your bow. But that does not change the fact that the Vikings were making more advanced stuff, when the Japanese were still using plain iron.
Does that mean that ours are the best blades ever made?


Less fanboy'ism and more rationality, please.

Well basically you obviously don't know a thing about me Dane. I'm a European overall and that's all you need to know.

So less of the insults and try to remember that the 'hairy savages' you refer to kept the light of civilisation and knowledge flying in Europe while your heathen lot were trudging through the dark ages.
Yes, most of the knowledge was recorded and copied by monks in Ireland that even the Vatican had to borrow

Less of your silly responses.
I used the Jap's as an example as it's a suitable comparison for what the English longbow is to Britons.
Maybe you should swing the axe at the tree for a bit and stop hacking at my posts.

[Quietus]

Well basically you obviously don't know a thing about me Dane. I'm a European overall and that's all you need to know.

So less of the insults and try to remember that the 'hairy savages' you refer to kept the light of civilisation and knowledge flying in Europe while your heathen lot were trudging through the dark ages.
Yes, most of the knowledge was recorded and copied by monks in Ireland that even the Vatican had to borrow

Less of your silly responses.
I used the Jap's as an example as it's a suitable comparison for what the English longbow is to Britons.
Maybe you should swing the axe at the tree for a bit and stop hacking at my posts.

Seriously? Are you just looking for things to feel victimized over?
Have you not the plums to accept that you are not right, simply because you want to be?
Being right requires getting ones facts straight. Something that, upon closer inspection, you will find that I have, in the post you are now whining about.

But then again. You really don't seem to have a good understanding of history, so I am at fault for expecting anything more.

I must however commend you on the seemingly effortless transition from ad hominem through factual errors and on to logical fallacies. And you mix those so well that it almost seem random.

It's sad and a guaranteed way to loose any debate, but it is impressive nonetheless.

This is what I would do, were I in your shoes:
1: Stop digging.
2: put down the shovel.
3: step away from the hole.

No one is out to get you.
Don't take things so personal. There is nothing to gain from that.

[northernxposure]

And I'M on the ignore list?!

I can find a fart in a perfume factory, I swear.

This thread delivers.

(Seriously, it does - if you can read through the BS, there's a LOT of great information in here covering many different areas of archery...)

And while I'm thinking about it, the correct name for people who live in Japan are "the Japanese" - not "the Japs". I'm not sure why that bothers me.

NXP

[Kyle Ryder]

Well basically you obviously don't know a thing about me Dane. I'm a European overall and that's all you need to know.

So less of the insults and try to remember that the 'hairy savages' you refer to kept the light of civilisation and knowledge flying in Europe while your heathen lot were trudging through the dark ages.
Yes, most of the knowledge was recorded and copied by monks in Ireland that even the Vatican had to borrow

Less of your silly responses.
I used the Jap's as an example as it's a suitable comparison for what the English longbow is to Britons.
Maybe you should swing the axe at the tree for a bit and stop hacking at my posts.

Seriously? Are you just looking for things to feel victimized over?
Have you not the plums to accept that you are not right, simply because you want to be?
Being right requires getting ones facts straight. Something that, upon closer inspection, you will find that I have, in the post you are now whining about.

But then again. You really don't seem to have a good understanding of history, so I am at fault for expecting anything more.

I must however commend you on the seemingly effortless transition from ad hominem through factual errors and on to logical fallacies. And you mix those so well that it almost seem random.

It's sad and a guaranteed way to loose any debate, but it is impressive nonetheless.

This is what I would do, were I in your shoes:
1: Stop digging.
2: put down the shovel.
3: step away from the hole.

No one is out to get you.
Don't take things so personal. There is nothing to gain from that.

Just telling it like it is.

I think you need to stop rambling about nothings and frivilous trolling, the only person digging anything is a strange poster claiming to be a dane called Quietus who ought to be a bit more quietus

[ninja-elbow]

Everybody, back away. This is an awesome thread except for the BS in it.

Kyle Ryder - you need to understand you have made some pretty wild claims that others are questioning. I would also question them myself but others have already done it. Stop taking questioning of your claims personal and then evolving them into personal attacks please.

Others, you made your point. If Kyle decides to keep making crazy statements like "Japs" and how warbows are the ultimate in something let him. He has, as already put, dug his own hole and if people want to go with his opinions, that is their choice.

If you have information counter to Kyle's feel free to state them but then disengage. He does not care about what you have to say and you will not change his mind or force him to quit typing. All you cn do is put it on the table and walk away.

[Shiloh]

Back on topic then...

Could anyone recommend a decent wood that I could back a red oak board bow with? Hickory isn't prevelant in my area, and I'm not up to speed on working with bamboo. I was hoping for something that you could find at a lumberyard/home improvement store, if at all possible.

Also, fun archery tidbit of the day: I don't know if this is true or not, so judge as you will. Supposedly, the reason horn nocks were put onto English warbows was due to the high draw weight and the softness of the yew wood; after time, and with such a heavy draw, the string could actually eat into the wood and cause it to splinter or snap.

[Ad'lan]

Back on topic then...

Could anyone recommend a decent wood that I could back a red oak board bow with? Hickory isn't prevelant in my area, and I'm not up to speed on working with bamboo. I was hoping for something that you could find at a lumberyard/home improvement store, if at all possible.

I'd be very surprised if you couldn't get hickory in your local lumberyard. I mean... I live in the UK and I found hickory in mine. Have you thought about non wood backings, like sinew or snakeskin? I don't have much experience with any of them, I just go with self bows, but they are possibilities.

Also, fun archery tidbit of the day: I don't know if this is true or not, so judge as you will. Supposedly, the reason horn nocks were put onto English warbows was due to the high draw weight and the softness of the yew wood; after time, and with such a heavy draw, the string could actually eat into the wood and cause it to splinter or snap.

I've seen it happen.

[Shiloh]

Back on topic then...

Could anyone recommend a decent wood that I could back a red oak board bow with? Hickory isn't prevelant in my area, and I'm not up to speed on working with bamboo. I was hoping for something that you could find at a lumberyard/home improvement store, if at all possible.

I'd be very surprised if you couldn't get hickory in your local lumberyard. I mean... I live in the UK and I found hickory in mine. Have you thought about non wood backings, like sinew or snakeskin? I don't have much experience with any of them, I just go with self bows, but they are possibilities.

Also, fun archery tidbit of the day: I don't know if this is true or not, so judge as you will. Supposedly, the reason horn nocks were put onto English warbows was due to the high draw weight and the softness of the yew wood; after time, and with such a heavy draw, the string could actually eat into the wood and cause it to splinter or snap.

I've seen it happen.

I think there's a few local lumberyards around, I just haven't had the chance to call to see if they have some hickory in stock, though. As far as the non-wood backings, I've been considering linen or a similar cloth as another choice. The main reason I'm trying to get a wood backing is to add some depth to the bow, since I'm trying to replicate an ELB without busting the bank. Thanks for the snakeskin and sinew idea, though! Once my stave of vine maple is seasoned and I get a drawknife, I might just give that a shot. That is, if I can figure out how to work around the pith running down the center.

[Gypsyblood]

@Shiloh
Believe it or not, a big enough rawhide dog chew toy can be soaked, unwrapped, and then used to back a self-bow. I beleive you can put snakeskin over the rawhide as well.

[Quietus]

I think there's a few local lumberyards around, I just haven't had the chance to call to see if they have some hickory in stock, though. As far as the non-wood backings, I've been considering linen or a similar cloth as another choice. The main reason I'm trying to get a wood backing is to add some depth to the bow, since I'm trying to replicate an ELB without busting the bank. Thanks for the snakeskin and sinew idea, though! Once my stave of vine maple is seasoned and I get a drawknife, I might just give that a shot. That is, if I can figure out how to work around the pith running down the center.

You need to decide if you want "passive" or "active" backing.
Passive backing serves to keep splinters from rising. There are many choices here, from linen to paper.

Active backing do more than that. They can be used to change the drawweight and cast of the bow.

I have never worked with maple and don't know much about it's properties, but I would imagine that it lends itself better to a flatter profile rather than a D.
If you are indeed going for a flatbow type design, active backing like hickory could easily be used to create a reflex/deflex shape.

Edit to ad:
Gypsyblood is quite right. Those chew toys work very well indeed

[northernxposure]

Shiloh -

Lots of great info on here, I like the questions that Quietus raised - the backing material really can effect what you're looking to do with it. I'll be up front - the last two board bows I made ended up in splinters, so I'm of little help. I think if I had used a linen backing, one of them might have been able to be salvaged - but it was only to save a crap tiller job by yours truly.

Maple does great as a core, but really responds best as a lam component - I think it does best as a compression wood. Typical backing woods would be hickory, osage, bamboo, and if you're up for a challenge black walnut. That said - there's a reason why bamboo backed is the standard.

NXP

[ninja-elbow]

Dog chews. Not the prettiest if you are new to using them, but work great. I've backed a bow or 2 for my knight with them as well as edged shields. I've also backed a bow with some deer sinew, a bit messy and tedious if you are doing it strand my strand but works nice.

I backed my self bow, Sweet Butter, (also of oak) with some dark brown leather. Not sure if I have ever posted a pic of her but I'll get one up here tonight maybe. I was just cleaning her the other day and looking at my strings as I'm about to head out with her for some time on the range.

[Shiloh]

Thanks for the info you guys! The maple is in fact going to be a flatbow, mostly because I don't consider myself good enough to try a lam design just yet. I'm going to try the longbow design with boards first, just to try my hand at it. Mind you, they're only going to pull around #40 at the most, but I think it'll just be fun to try.

I've been thinking over the passive versus active backing issue lately. I'm thinking of trying rawhide at first, since it seems to be a lot less expensive and easier to use for a beginner like myself when compared to sinew.

[ninja-elbow]

I've also seen people take the rawhide off easier too if they get all uppity and try a different backing. The main problem with rawhide is when it gets wet out.