Bowmanship Thread

[Ad'lan]

Blast from the past!

Looks like a fair bit of fun, if I didn't get the vibe they take themselves seriously.

Signs they are N00bs:

How much is there bloody let off? I mean, they hold their draw for a long... long time.

Lifting the bow up the body, not angling from the waist.

Volley's a second or two long.

saying FIRE!


And that's only in the first minute. Seems like Back Quivers are the Bow Ninja's gear of choice.

[Quietus]

And that's only in the first minute. Seems like Back Quivers are the Bow Ninja's gear of choice.

I have noticed that too. Never understood why.
It's not practical and it makes you look like a cartoon character

[Kissing-Tom]

No,..it was not seriously,..it was fun.
They were many archers, but only few with an historical background. The man, where make this meeting(460 Archers) want only to try.
We knowed it´s not the same like in the medieval. We fired at a flag 120(393 feet) meters away. But,..it was so fantastic!
460 arrows in one second,...
And the best were the parties after the shooting, many interesting people. Many freaks, many clowns, but very interesing!

[Gypsyblood]

@NXP...
“The comparison between the compound and the war bow was not to say that the compound bow was a niche weapon, rather it was a major step forward in archery.”
Gotcha

My favorite bows now are Borders, but my first deer from a tree stand was with a Howard Hill Big 5. Trying to put a stand up in a swampy area of Florida while being conscious of having room to pull that long-ass bow back was an interesting challenge! That old HH was sooo slow.

I almost bought a Black Swan but took a trip to Scotland and bought a Border Archery bow. While I picked up an R/D longbow (Griffon) and a shorter "blind" version called "Hawk," Border is mostly known for their recurves/limbs and after doing a bit of research and taking a trip up to Scotland to get the full factory tour, I was sold. They are doing amazing things with carbon . I was an instant loyal customer! These have double carbon lams and are incredibly fast (which to me translates to normal speed with heavy arrows). I’m able to shoot 700g arrows with good speed, and holy poo-poo are these bows light!

At my club in England we’d go a roving and there would be a couple of compound shooters, a few horn-nock self-longbow shooters, me and another lad shooting Borders, and a few recurve shooters. We’d shoot in deep woods at randomly placed 3D targets and at long distances (for target preservation purposes, of course) usually through the openings in trees. It was a blast watching the longbow shooters shoot over the top tree limb, us and the recurve guys shoot over the second limb, and the compound guys go straight at it. I always thought the good longbow guys had the greatest skill because they had to judge that arc. I imagine you have to do the same with your primitive bow. I need to get some osage and have a go at making a primitive bow myself.

“... my pop up blind is 60" to the center hub, and I can still shoot a 64" longbow in it (canted over of course)”

Mind if I ask what kind of blind? I am in the market for one and I’d like to get feedback from a trad shooter.

[Quietus]

@Gypsyblood:

That Big 5 is one seriously beautiful piece of kit. A friend of mine has one, and I have been thinking about getting either that or the Wesley Special at some point.

And they offer both in 200lbs @ 32 inches
I'm still pretty far from being able to handle that, but just the fact that they do it, is awesome.

[Gypsyblood]

@Quietus
Thanks. The Big 5 has a lot of great memories and it's has been passed on to my eldest son. I see you are in Denmark. If you go to any 3D tourneys keep your eyes open for Border Archery bows. I have a few friends in Finland and Germany that love them and I bet you can find one to at least have a look at over there. I don't think I'll ever buy another brand of bow again (but I will buy more Borders, much to my wife's chagrin )

Both Border and Howard Hill are both very small, family owned businesses that make quality goods. I like to support that kind of thing, especially in this unfortunate Wal-Mart era.

[northernxposure]

@NXP...
“The comparison between the compound and the war bow was not to say that the compound bow was a niche weapon, rather it was a major step forward in archery.”
Gotcha

My favorite bows now are Borders, but my first deer from a tree stand was with a Howard Hill Big 5. Trying to put a stand up in a swampy area of Florida while being conscious of having room to pull that long-ass bow back was an interesting challenge! That old HH was sooo slow.

I almost bought a Black Swan but took a trip to Scotland and bought a Border Archery bow. While I picked up an R/D longbow (Griffon) and a shorter "blind" version called "Hawk," Border is mostly known for their recurves/limbs and after doing a bit of research and taking a trip up to Scotland to get the full factory tour, I was sold. They are doing amazing things with carbon . I was an instant loyal customer! These have double carbon lams and are incredibly fast (which to me translates to normal speed with heavy arrows). I’m able to shoot 700g arrows with good speed, and holy poo-poo are these bows light!

At my club in England we’d go a roving and there would be a couple of compound shooters, a few horn-nock self-longbow shooters, me and another lad shooting Borders, and a few recurve shooters. We’d shoot in deep woods at randomly placed 3D targets and at long distances (for target preservation purposes, of course) usually through the openings in trees. It was a blast watching the longbow shooters shoot over the top tree limb, us and the recurve guys shoot over the second limb, and the compound guys go straight at it. I always thought the good longbow guys had the greatest skill because they had to judge that arc. I imagine you have to do the same with your primitive bow. I need to get some osage and have a go at making a primitive bow myself.

“... my pop up blind is 60" to the center hub, and I can still shoot a 64" longbow in it (canted over of course)”

Mind if I ask what kind of blind? I am in the market for one and I’d like to get feedback from a trad shooter.

Border makes an absolutely stunning set of limbs. I had a set of Hex5's for a while, and really hated that I gave them up for "the newest greatest bestest" limbs from Korea. In the technical sense of the word, they were better - but honestly the Hex5's were just perfect, not too much, not too little - almost like the Winex limbs grew up and matured if you know what I mean. The worst part about giving up Border limbs is having to wait forever to get a set made and then shipped back to you. I keep hoping I'll find a used set somewhere either on TT or TG, but I think everyone else figured out how great Border limbs are too.

If you want an outstanding performing longbow, look at the ACS series from A&H, though I've heard they've sold to Dryad. They're using a patented "cupped" limb design that allows them to run a stiffer limb at less mass.

Interesting you brought up the topic of trajectory - I've had conversations with a good friend that shoots longbow exclusively, and within 5# of my draw weight. He subscribes to the heavy arrow theory also - myself I'm more EFOC, but while maintaining 8gpp in order to not loose the other part of the KE equation. The difference between the two arrow's trajectory was large, though overall penetration at 40yrds was nearly identical. We really didn't start seeing variances in penetration until we started getting past 65yrds, and even then it was minimal (roughly .5").

I've had a couple hub blinds, unfortunately - they have a habit of getting stolen. Because of that, I went cheap and got a Yukon Tracks blind from the local farm store. If you've got the money and aren't worried about theft, hands down the Double Bull is worth the money. The Rhino blinds are also good, but you can instantly tell the difference between a coated nylon shell of a cheap blind and the cotton mix fabric of the DB. Natural fibers are just so much "softer" in the woods.


NXP

[Gypsyblood]

@NXP

Funny you should mention ACS...When I bought my Griffon I had actually narrowed the choice down to Swan, ACS, and Border for double carbon bows. ACS bows were certainly in the running, but being able to drive up to Scotland and pick out my Border was the deciding factor. If you ever get a chance to visit Scotland, a trip to Border is a must. It's a short haul from Edinburgh.

I don't think the factory is any more than 5000 square feet, but inside the place they are actually manufacturing their own carbon. They'll take you around and show you every single part of the process and let you compare bows. I think there are 6 or 7 guys that work there, and Sid (the owner) will spare an entire day just talking to you about his bows, the technology, and the process. His wife and son both work there as well. It's a real treat to visit and they have a great deal of pride in their products.

I agree with the turnaround though. That's a typical complaint with Border. They are busting their arses working up there, but I don't think they are able to produce enough to keep up with demand.

Yes, the penetration issue is a mystery sometimes. It certainly doesn't conform to theory all the time.

I was shooting just over 8GPP (540gn for a #65) but I built this last set of carbons up to 11GPP to ensure good penetration for hog hunting...never did get around to hog hunting this year, but I'm enjoying these heavy arrows.

Thanks for the blind advice. I am going to pack in/out next season. I'll be hunting Amistad and I don't think you can leave anything there.

[Quietus]

@Quietus
Thanks. The Big 5 has a lot of great memories and it's has been passed on to my eldest son. I see you are in Denmark. If you go to any 3D tourneys keep your eyes open for Border Archery bows. I have a few friends in Finland and Germany that love them and I bet you can find one to at least have a look at over there. I don't think I'll ever buy another brand of bow again (but I will buy more Borders, much to my wife's chagrin )

Both Border and Howard Hill are both very small, family owned businesses that make quality goods. I like to support that kind of thing, especially in this unfortunate Wal-Mart era.

I have seen a few of those around. From what I hear, they do their job well, but the general style and look of them (the ones I have seen anyway), don't really do it for me.
I do like that they bring new materials to the table, but I really don't need that. I shoot traditional bows for fun. When I want or need A bit more tech, I pick up my compound.

[Gypsyblood]

@Quietus
...well, as you mentioned, you certainly can't go wrong with a Howard Hill. They are beautiful and very traditional looking. I hope you get a chance to own one someday.

[Kyle Ryder]

In these coming times warbows will be handy bits of kit to have. Defending a household, especially from an upstair's vantage-point with one would certainly give an attacking foe a nightmare.

Nope.
A traditional English warbow is a very specialized tool. They are designed to lob a very heavy arrow very far. Nothing else.

The reason those arrows were very heavy, was to give them enough mass to ensure a lot a of impact energy, even at great distances.
Sure, a lighter arrow would be faster, but less weight also means less inertia. And that is a problem.

So now we have a very heavy arrow and a bow with a very slow cast. The only way to compensate, is higher poundage.

The point is, that warbows were made to get a very heavy arrow to kill a dude who is likely to be wearing some form of protection, without getting to close to him.

For what you are suggesting, you would be many times better of with something in the 60lbs range. Your potential targets would be close, and either wearing no armour, or armour that you are not likely to penetrate anyway.
Unless you are lucky enough, that they just happen to be wearing fairly low level kevlar. The right arrow can penetrate that, but you still wouldn't need more than ~60lbs.

Yep. Warbows can be used for hunting. There is no reason why they shouldn't be able to do that. But unless you are hunting elephant, you can get by with a lighter longbow.
That doesn't mean that the warbow wouldn't be fun to hunt with under the right circumstances.
Apart from that, they have little practical value these days. They have a place in sports and historical archery, but that's about it.

Yes and no. A warbow with a flight arrow will go a lot further than a hunting longbow of lower poundage with the same arrow-weight, it's simple velocity and force.
There's more of it in a warbow, especially someone who has worked on their craft for years and years.
Maybe a 140 lb warbow is a little over kill, but having an 80 lb warbow that's still in the 'crossover' zone of hunting and warbow-levels would be a fine choice, especially with someone who is defending a settlement.
Don't forget, in Europe firearms are typically a lot less widespread in civilian areas, meaning that those with the bows will be well worth their while to a community
Historically longbowmen would use 'galling' arrows (flight arrows) for the extreme ranges of 300 yards or more, which is what they did at Agincourt etc.

[Kyle Ryder]

I think warbows are very similar in length to sub-80lb longbows...

In these coming times warbows will be handy bits of kit to have. Defending a household, especially from an upstair's vantage-point with one would certainly give an attacking foe a nightmare.

If that is your concern, then get your shotgun license. I'm with Gypsy Blood, the warbow is designed for fighting a large, stupid enemy. Namely the French. It was used for other purposes because that is what people had to hand, and they were very good at using the warbow, not because it was the best bow for the job. The Warbow is a magnificent design, but it's not what I'd select for "Combat Archery" out side of a specific set of circumstances.

Already got a Shotgun but don't see why I should restrict myself to the easy thing that goes bang. Also they run out of ammo, make a noise and turn into a an expensive club when shells are no-where to be found
The way the country is going it won't be long before these are restricted to land-owners or the gentry. The ptb have been banning guns ever since the 30s, given the current trend it won't be long before shotguns are taken away as well.
A Warbow is the best, it's that simple.

So I believe modern compound bows are nothing like the warbows were from the 16th century and before. In fact, I’d say they are apples and oranges.

I'd agree most strongly. They fulfil very different roles. The Warbow is more like the medieval AK, but in a .50 Cal. There isn't really any good modern way of analogy to it.

If my longbow shooting friends from England participated in a 3D tourney over here, they’d most often be invited to participate in the primitive, self bow class.

In the UK, off the top of my head to shoot NFAS in the longbow category, has to be wooden, feather fletched arrows.

Now, whether or not the modern compound is superior to the modern, carbon-limbed, reflex-deflex longbow is the subject of further, more intense debate, best done around the campfire at the end of a shoot, and over a few beers.

Better for a given value of Better

Bold for responses.

[Kyle Ryder]

@Gypsyblood:

That Big 5 is one seriously beautiful piece of kit. A friend of mine has one, and I have been thinking about getting either that or the Wesley Special at some point.

And they offer both in 200lbs @ 32 inches
I'm still pretty far from being able to handle that, but just the fact that they do it, is awesome.

Doing testing on what that baby could do would be a blast, that would be a BEAST!
Mark Stretton would struggle on that thing!

[Kyle Ryder]

Old School Combat Archery:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSSM9b0hbR0

View at the 10:30 minute. It was last year in Germany, me and my wife was there, it was amazing. (Please don´t look at the clothes, it wasn´t reenactment)

Pretty good in a casual day-out kinda way.

From about 13:00 they get the commands right and use the proper term 'loose' (abeit with a German slant)
I'm no expert on medieval accroutements of the Holy Roman Empire but did the German archers of olde use arrowbags like the English?
A lot of them are using back quivers (one guy has a bloody great arrow basket! Ye Gods!), nor did I see any planting arrows out in front of them for quick action either. Maybe it's just an English thing?
I suspect they are nearly all using reenactment bows / Holmguard bows / flat bows of sub-30 lb?

[Quietus]

Yes and no. A warbow with a flight arrow will go a lot further than a hunting longbow of lower poundage with the same arrow-weight, it's simple velocity and force.

This is not a "yes and no" situation.

It is not incorrect that a flight arrow would have the potential to travel further than a heavy hunting or war arrow, if the same bow is used.
But do you know what flight arrows are good for? (there is a hint in the name).
For pretty much anything else, they are very close to useless.

Historically longbowmen would use 'galling' arrows (flight arrows) for the extreme ranges of 300 yards or more, which is what they did at Agincourt etc.

Look up the word "galling" when you get a chance. It's meaning teels you a lot about the function of these arrows.

Maybe a 140 lb warbow is a little over kill, but having an 80 lb warbow that's still in the 'crossover' zone of hunting and warbow-levels would be a fine choice, especially with someone who is defending a settlement.

No. Just plain no.

I shoot just about every style of bow I can get my hands on. At this point that means longbows, warbows, Korean, Mongol and Danish (Holmegaard) bows and compound.
If I were to choose any of the traditional ones, for the purpose you speak of, the warbow would be my absolute last choice. Closely followed by the longbow.

That choice is based on logic, technical understanding and a couple of decades of practical experience.

Don't forget, in Europe firearms are typically a lot less widespread in civilian areas, meaning that those with the bows will be well worth their while to a community

Are you shitting me??
My nationality is listed right under my name. I LIVE IN EUROPE.
As such there is a fair chance that I do not require you to tell me about my home, using "facts" that you most likely heard on Fox "news".

Should all hell break loose, a shotgun is still a better choice than a bow. And I can assure you that shotguns are many, many times more common than bows.
Our laws prohibit carrying of guns. Not ownership.

You seem extremely defensive. There is no need for that. No one is attacking you or even your choice in bow.
But disregarding facts, and blindly stating that it simply the best for everything from killing Frenchmen to removing belly button lint, is just silly.

[Kissing-Tom]

Old School Combat Archery:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSSM9b0hbR0

View at the 10:30 minute. It was last year in Germany, me and my wife was there, it was amazing. (Please don´t look at the clothes, it wasn´t reenactment)

Pretty good in a casual day-out kinda way.

From about 13:00 they get the commands right and use the proper term 'loose' (abeit with a German slant)
I'm no expert on medieval accroutements of the Holy Roman Empire but did the German archers of olde use arrowbags like the English?
A lot of them are using back quivers (one guy has a bloody great arrow basket! Ye Gods!), nor did I see any planting arrows out in front of them for quick action either. Maybe it's just an English thing?
I suspect they are nearly all using reenactment bows / Holmguard bows / flat bows of sub-30 lb?

Well, in the medieval Germany wasn´t archery so popular like in England. But it was the same stuff like in England.
Here is a photo of me, with a handmade bowbag(the original was found in Sweden). Very practical. For 30 big arrows.


Here is a better picture of the quiver:http://shop.strato.de/epages/15502242.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/15502242/Products/53


Beste Grüße, Tom.

[Ad'lan]

Already got a Shotgun but don't see why I should restrict myself to the easy thing that goes bang. Also they run out of ammo, make a noise and turn into a an expensive club when shells are no-where to be found

Unlike a Warbow, which runs out of ammo, makes a noise, and turns into an expensive staff when arrows are no-where to be found.

The way the country is going it won't be long before these are restricted to land-owners or the gentry. The ptb have been banning guns ever since the 30s, given the current trend it won't be long before shotguns are taken away as well.

Please do not walk the politics rule again. I would point out things like the criminalisation of archery equipment, the restrictions on defending one's self and the way you'd probably be convicted in the press if you used a warbow in a home defence situation. But I won't go into the depth of those points, suffice to say, please leave the politics outside the forum.

A Warbow is the best, it's that simple.

Best at what? I mean, I'm a fan of the Warbow, I love them fun to shoot, fun to make, love the history, but I do my best not to be a Fanboy.

Warbows are the Most Efficient design: Incorrect, Flatbows and Recurves both have a more efficient design, giving greater cast for the same draw weight..
Warbows are the Most Accurate: Incorrect, it's the Archers that are accurate, the bow has little to do with it. And the Simple design of the War bow doesn't make it more accurate.
Warbows are the Heaviest Draw Weight: Unknown, but it's plausible for the Mongol Horn and Sinew Bows to be in comparable rates to the Best English Warbows.

What made Warbows brilliant is the social structure around them producing a cadre of highly trained Freeman Archers, The Design was efficient for production, meaning that it didn't require a master of master builders to make a reasonable bow of quite a high draw.

I love my Warbows, and the History that goes with them, but I wouldn't assert they were the best, except the best for me to shoot, because they bring joy.

[northernxposure]

*Grabs popcorn*

Gypsyblood - was just thinking about it last night, as you mentioned you at one time had interest in the ACS and a few of the carbon lam'd bows - if you haven't checked out Centaur Archery, they make a double and by special order only a triple carbon lam that is also outstanding. The grip is a little fat if that bothers you, but they can move an arrow.

NXP

[ninja-elbow]

Old School Combat Archery:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSSM9b0hbR0

View at the 10:30 minute. It was last year in Germany, me and my wife was there, it was amazing. (Please don´t look at the clothes, it wasn´t reenactment)

Pretty good in a casual day-out kinda way.

From about 13:00 they get the commands right and use the proper term 'loose' (abeit with a German slant)
I'm no expert on medieval accroutements of the Holy Roman Empire but did the German archers of olde use arrowbags like the English?
A lot of them are using back quivers (one guy has a bloody great arrow basket! Ye Gods!), nor did I see any planting arrows out in front of them for quick action either. Maybe it's just an English thing?
I suspect they are nearly all using reenactment bows / Holmguard bows / flat bows of sub-30 lb?

Well, in the medieval Germany wasn´t archery so popular like in England. But it was the same stuff like in England.
Here is a photo of me, with a handmade bowbag(the original was found in Sweden). Very practical. For 30 big arrows.


Here is a better picture of the quiver:http://shop.strato.de/epages/15502242.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/15502242/Products/53


Beste Grüße, Tom.

Being a re-creation / reenactment nerd... nice pic. Love me some good reenactment kit.

[Gypsyblood]

@NXP
Thanks for the suggestion. I explored their website. Very nice! I’m digging that ergo riser. I like their "battle-axe" broadhead as well. I noticed they are using a carbon mesh. The guys up at Border explained why the mesh is unnecessary (something about torsional stability and the direction in which energy is stored) but is sure looks cool. I like arrows that show their mesh as well, like Carbon Express. I guess it goes back to the early 90s when Trek was making OCLV mountain bikes and I fell in love with the ‘naked’ carbon bikes.

I just recently got off my high horse about shooting wooden arrows. I can’t really bitch about being a traditionalist and insist on hand built wood arrows when my bow is filled with carbon

[SavageArcher]

This has been an interesting thread so far, still haven't gotten an answer to who all shoots three fingers under but thats ok. I'm used to being passed over as a typical ZS thread tends to meander around like a drunken Scotchman with his kilt over his head.

[Quietus]

This has been an interesting thread so far, still haven't gotten an answer to who all shoots three fingers under but thats ok. I'm used to being passed over as a typical ZS thread tends to meander around like a drunken Scotchman with his kilt over his head.

I have only ever seen target recurve shooters do that. The ones that don't use a mechanical release that is.

[Gypsyblood]

@SavageArcher
Sorry mate! About three fingers under...Many, many people in the States are going to this style based Rick Welch's teachings. He says you don't have to shoot three under, but he uses some kind of sight picture awareness gap shooting, shoots a straight up and down bow sans cant, and most of his students are shooting three under. I personally can't get on with that style but there's no denying this guy is very proficient.



Personally, I think that that three fingers under lends itself well to ambush hunting (blinds, treestands) but I don't think it's so great for spontaneous shooting. I don't think it is truely instinctive shooting. I want to be able to shoot without thought. A good guy and someone who has inspired me to shoot without thought is Lampi in Germany. Here's a very fun video, and I don't think the three-under, sight picture awareness would work with this kind of shooting:

[Quietus]

I don't think it is truely instinctive shooting.

You are quite right. That guy does not shoot instinctive.
And that makes perfect sense if he is advocating three fingers under. It brings the arrow up a bit placing it closer to the eye.
You may also have noticed that he anchors pretty high and actually tilts his head slightly, to get as close to the arrow as possible.