The next big thing in military arms

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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by Ad'lan » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:11 am

Kutter_0311 wrote: The Marine Corps, already busy developing low-earth-orbit squad transports to facilitate rapid crisis response, develops orbital-drop troop deployment as part of the young Space Navy. Marines pioneer null-gee fitness maintenence, allowing them to return to Terra's surface safely after months afloat.
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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by Gingerbread Man » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:16 am

USMCSergeant wrote:In 20 years infantry field on ground operations will be special forces only with the use of some type of unmanned aircraft or soldier.
This and remote and squad level robots, both large and small. Tanks, arty, ammo carriers, small flying, repair/maintance, room clearing (probably more) will be handled by remote controlled robots.

Until someone figures out a was to block the signals. Then it will be hard wired. Until they invent EMP generators. Then we're back to old school hashing it out.
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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by Chris@MTCT » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:49 am

:lol:
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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by Gingerbread Man » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:56 am

gravediggerfour wrote::lol:
Glad someone gets my dry humor.
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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by TacAir » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:40 am

I think I'll go a bit off topic/topic

This question has gotten a lot of ink in SciFi books.forums and the like.

Some thoughts
Common caliber weapon. Pistols use pistol ammo, rifles use rifle ammo and can use pistol ammo with a chamber adapter. Everything is, say, 6.5mm. Pistol ammo can be very powerful but controlled via barrel porting - more gas vented, less of the V squared thing.

Employment of said arms....

Up to now most of the fighting was/is based in political issues and done by mostly standing armies. I see the use more irregular forces - say we call them 'rebels' given support and some training by professionals - much in the model presented by the brawl in RVN and as seen today in Libya. A slightly different kind of proxy war, as regular forces are too expensive to support and cause political problems in the home country.

Going into the future, I can see the possibility of Corporations using merc or irregular forces to battle over resources, market share or to eliminate competition - this possibility will make the Mob wars look like a church picnic. Same old small-scale wars, different players, different payers - except the non-combatants will still be the same. Think Darfur as a hybrid type of this possible future.

Another possible future, no more wars. At least large scale, industrial warfare - nobody will be able to afford that kind of conflict.
So the battlefield switches to the field of ideas - Meme wars if you will. Using targeted assination and psyops/mass infowar - it is the same conflict over resources. The players? Gov'ts or Corporations? Both?
So the next big thing in 'military arms' a nano-scale understanding of the targets culture, language, and all the social nuances that 'push your button' - so this might really become the old "Believe what you see or see what you believe". A Hollywood take - and not too far off the mark, "Wag the Dog".

Space Marines, Space Navy and Air Force bases on the moon are 1950s leftovers, just like that flying car that was supposed to be in your garage 40 years ago. Until we can regularly live and work in space for years and years at a time, I doubt there will be anything much to fight over - up there.

As far as the 'ain't going to study war no more' crowd - that also is unlikely to happen, unfortunatly. Even if everyone on Earth has a good pair of shoes, some SOB will want two pairs, his and yours...... something I doubt will change anytime soon, despite Gene's best hopes.

One topic that I haven't touched on is internecine warfare - caused by a collaping culture, society or Nation. As much as we saw some aspects of this in the fall of the old Soviet, it wasn't full blown warfare - there were either no resources or the will just wasn't there, at the time.
Gang warfare in large cities? Maybe, but limited right now.... Larger, multinational gangs are appearing (MS-13 for example) and making a larger impact. Where this thread goes is hard to say.
Other examples would be fighting based on religion, culture, status (in many areas of life). Seen in the past as low-level conflict in Nothern Ireland, the ME or some of the fighting in SA.

Conflict will always be here - at least for the forseeable future. But them, so will earthquakes, hurricanes, floods and other natural events.

bit of a ramble, but then the 'Net often gets that way - eh?
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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by Kutter_0311 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:24 pm

Last I checked, the space program was the only .gov endeavor to actually turn a profit.

Those private corp.s going in to space? They ain't goin for fun, there's $$$ up there!

Oh, and if you haven't noticed, we're running out of materials and elbow room on Terra.

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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by Rev » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Kutter_0311 wrote:we're running out of materials and elbow room on Terra.
More the former than the latter. We've proven population growth can be brought under control we're just not sure how to deal with the economical and social repercussions.

Now where was that link to that giant cannon that was proposed to launch material into orbit...
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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by AKFTW » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:50 pm

I don't know if we'll ever get past using actual troops for combat, and I don't think we should. Humans have the power to think critically that I hope machines NEVER have (or our days will be numbered). There is also a human cost to war that makes it a hard choice. Imagine if we could fight wars without any danger to our own people? What would there be to stop us from using war to solve EVERY problem, if there was no human cost to one side? When war stops being hell and starts being a game, then we have problems greater than the limits of our technology.
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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by Rev » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:00 pm

AKFTW wrote:When war stops being hell and starts being a game, then we have problems greater than the limits of our technology.
I give you WWII and the majority of the wars fought in the 1800s. It was still hell but the leadership was so far removed from the man in the fight it was a game.
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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by roscoe » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:19 pm

assuming advancements in armor, a direct RPG may do little more than knock the armored soldier over
That assumes a lot. Right now, even an Abrams is vulnerable. You think some grunt in a suit will be better armored? I don't see it. I join the 70's-ish no-progress bandwagon. That stuff all costs a lot of money, and money is what we ain't got, nor are we likely to spend it. Fast, cheap, and outa control!

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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by jor-el » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:42 pm

The next gen soldier. In ACU.

Image

Powered armor with nobody inside. The real issue will be cost per unit. Compare costs of maintenance and electricity with that of food, water, and medical; ignoring dependent families.

Grunt with its SASS; fluted barrel, ARD in a caliber approximating 7.62 NATO.

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Given the design only has to achieve function, not simulation, there's no reason not to develop weapons as part of the structure, not a separate object.

Troop commands via touchscreen.

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Tomorrow's Memorial Park?

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This becomes a problem when the upgrades achieve sentience and decide they don't feel like being treated as expendable.
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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by Qasim » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:35 pm

+1 for the "little progress" column

armored suits will require massive breakthroughs in multiple technology. Right now, we can't effectively armor soldiers' necks, armpits, or groins effectively, much less stop at RPG-22 or an EFP with a suit.

For small arms, I think the XM-25 will change some things, but progress will be slow. The US Army is already investing a lot in dumping M-16s for M4s, and guess what, that may not have been such a hot idea, at least according to one Army strategist http://www.scribd.com/doc/26645298/Incr ... -Kilometer. Data from Afghanistan suggests that engagement ranges are much longer than in Iraq or other past wars, making longer-range weapons like the M-14 popular (I personally think the 7.62 chambered HK 416 would be money). So weapons could flip-flop.

With American soldiers heavily loaded down while irregular forces (the only kind left that seem willing to engage Americans) dance around them left and right, I think target acquisition is key. Read, small UAVs operated by squads, and target acquisition systems including way better scopes, and devices like this http://www.qinetiq.com/home/newsroom/ne ... /ears.html Killing a target on the battlefield has not been a problem for years for most militaries. Getting the weapon system in place to take the shot is the big problem.

I am not buying the introduction of Space Marines, hover tanks, independent robots or anything in the next 20 years. No Ministry of Defense in the world has the R&D programmed to develop it or the money to build it. Most of the land systems the US uses now were designed in the 70s (Apache, Bradley, Abrams) The Stryker is based on a chassis that is decades old, it is the internals that are modern. Many Air Force jets are older than their pilots. The F-22 took 20 years of R&D before it went into development. Look at the trend for fighter aircraft development: Between 1953-1956, the Air Force developed the F-100, F-101, F-102, F-104, F-105, and F-106. By the 70's it developed in the F-15 and F-16. Now, it is developing a single fighter, the F-35 (yes, it continues to improve others, but I see no other fighter designs on the drawing board, let me know if I missed something).

With the cancellation of FCS, there simply isn't the appetite for big systems, surface or otherwise. Yes some big things will get built, but not enough to kit out the Space Marines that accompanied Ripley in Aliens (which is too bad).

So, more soldier gear, (which will still weigh a ton in aggregate), more electronics, and lots of things that can find small targets.

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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by books » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:54 pm

Forgot one...
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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by urthshu » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:55 pm

I think one of the most obvious and unfortunate developments in military small arms [first to appear amongst NATO-affiliated troops] will be the inclusion of chips which may remotely arm or disable the soldier's weaponry.

They'll argue it as enforcing ROE but - bonus! - no possibility of military coups either.
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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by Kutter_0311 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:25 pm

jor-el wrote:The next gen soldier. In ACU.

Image

Image
This becomes a problem when the upgrades achieve sentience and decide they don't feel like being treated as expendable.
Did you intend these to look like Cylons?

Even "3 Law Compliant" robots are a threat to humanity once they attain sentience.

Designing robots to kill humans virtually ensures our extinction at their hands...
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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by books » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:49 pm

Kutter_0311 wrote:
jor-el wrote:The next gen soldier. In ACU.

Image

Image
This becomes a problem when the upgrades achieve sentience and decide they don't feel like being treated as expendable.
Did you intend these to look like Cylons?

Even "3 Law Compliant" robots are a threat to humanity once they attain sentience.

Designing robots to kill humans virtually ensures our extinction at their hands...
Dude. Get off ZS and watch the last couple of episodes of Caprica right now (I think they're on Hulu). The show was a little slow at times, but the last couple of episodes pay it off in spades. I almost feel guilty about wanting it to be canceled.
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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by jor-el » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:33 am

books wrote:
Kutter_0311 wrote:
jor-el wrote:The next gen soldier. In ACU.

Image

Image
This becomes a problem when the upgrades achieve sentience and decide they don't feel like being treated as expendable.
Did you intend these to look like Cylons?

Even "3 Law Compliant" robots are a threat to humanity once they attain sentience.

Designing robots to kill humans virtually ensures our extinction at their hands...
Dude. Get off ZS and watch the last couple of episodes of Caprica right now (I think they're on Hulu). The show was a little slow at times, but the last couple of episodes pay it off in spades. I almost feel guilty about wanting it to be canceled.




In case you didn't get the memo, those ARE 1st generation Cylons.

You should google "Military Talons" to see how close they are to Hunter-Killers already.
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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by jor-el » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:40 am

urthshu wrote:I think one of the most obvious and unfortunate developments in military small arms [first to appear amongst NATO-affiliated troops] will be the inclusion of chips which may remotely arm or disable the soldier's weaponry.

They'll argue it as enforcing ROE but - bonus! - no possibility of military coups either.
No, that will just open up another front for cyber warfare as everyone starts trying to shut the other guys guns off.

This idea got shot down for LE because the chances of weapons chips getting hacked are far too good.

Foreign govs are trying the hacking route already. Why improve their odds?

The very idea that there are people constantly trying to hack any and every system that accepts computer instructions is a perfect defense against such an implementation.
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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by BobtheBreaker » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:59 pm

The "next big thing" in military anything is going to be the consolidation of assets. I think were going to see the use of unmanned assets get pushed down to the point where a company becomes a fully deployable resource with its own indirect fire and air/ground support through the integration of high endurance, durable unmanned vehicles.
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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by Einher » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:13 pm

We all know the next big thing is going to be:

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Or:

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fear the growing brotherhood of machines
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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by Kutter_0311 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:44 pm

jor-el wrote:
books wrote:
Kutter_0311 wrote:
jor-el wrote:The next gen soldier. In ACU.

Image

Image
This becomes a problem when the upgrades achieve sentience and decide they don't feel like being treated as expendable.
Did you intend these to look like Cylons?

Even "3 Law Compliant" robots are a threat to humanity once they attain sentience.

Designing robots to kill humans virtually ensures our extinction at their hands...
Dude. Get off ZS and watch the last couple of episodes of Caprica right now (I think they're on Hulu). The show was a little slow at times, but the last couple of episodes pay it off in spades. I almost feel guilty about wanting it to be canceled.




In case you didn't get the memo, those ARE 1st generation Cylons.

You should google "Military Talons" to see how close they are to Hunter-Killers already.
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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by throwback » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:52 pm

"The wars of the future will not be fought on the battlefield or at sea. They will be fought in space, or possibly on top of a very tall mountain. In either case, most of the actual fighting will be done by small robots. And as you go forth today remember always your duty is clear: To build and maintain those robots."

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Re: The next big thing in military arms

Post by Rev » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:12 pm

throwback wrote:"The wars of the future will not be fought on the battlefield or at sea. They will be fought in space, or possibly on top of a very tall mountain. In either case, most of the actual fighting will be done by small robots. And as you go forth today remember always your duty is clear: To build and maintain those robots."

-Commandant, Rommelwood military academy, 1997.

That was a very good episode.
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