Need a good medieval sword!

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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by swordofthebreeze » Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:41 pm

bobhir wrote:http://www.albionarmorers.com

not cheap, but it's hard to beat the quality
+1
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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by AcidExfoliate » Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:32 pm

swordofthebreeze wrote:
bobhir wrote:http://www.albionarmorers.com

not cheap, but it's hard to beat the quality
+1


Meh. I handled most of their line last month and was less impressed than I expected to be.
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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by TheOwl » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:12 pm

swordofthebreeze wrote:
bobhir wrote:http://www.albionarmorers.com

not cheap, but it's hard to beat the quality
+1
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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by UlfBjorn » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:51 pm

AcidExfoliate wrote: Meh. I handled most of their line last month and was less impressed than I expected to be.
I spent the last week training with the best WMA swordsmen in the world at Chivalric Weekend http://chivalricweekend.webs.com/ And what did they all have in common? They all own at least one Albion, and praise their quality.
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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by KentsOkay » Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:43 am

So we can probably assume there won't be much edge on edge going on, how well do windlass/mrl swords handle blade-to-bone?
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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by AcidExfoliate » Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:06 pm

UlfBjorn wrote:
AcidExfoliate wrote: Meh. I handled most of their line last month and was less impressed than I expected to be.
I spent the last week training with the best WMA swordsmen in the world at Chivalric Weekend http://chivalricweekend.webs.com/ And what did they all have in common? They all own at least one Albion, and praise their quality.
If they did rapier I bet they used Darkwoods, and if they praised Albion they'd never heard of Lutel.
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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by Jeriah » Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:46 am

Hooligan wrote:I would look at DarkSword Armory. The swords they make are made in Canada instead of China. Which right there is a big plus for me. http://www.darksword-armory.com/swords.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Can't speak to their quality but they appear to take some liberties with historical authenticity. Don't know if this is an issue for the OP, but just be aware that some (maybe not all) of these swords are significant departures from their historical antecedents.
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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by TheOwl » Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:27 pm

UlfBjorn wrote:
I spent the last week training with the best WMA swordsmen in the world at Chivalric Weekend http://chivalricweekend.webs.com/ And what did they all have in common? They all own at least one Albion, and praise their quality.
The best WMA swordsman in the world? Really? Was Guy Windsor there? Because I'd put in at least in the top 5 WMA guys in the world and from what I've seen he mostly uses customs and Lutels. I don't recall seeing any Albions in his collection. But the general opinion is, that if you need to convince people that you're the best swordsman in the world, you need the most expensive and hyped swords out there.

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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by UlfBjorn » Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:44 pm

TheOwl wrote:
UlfBjorn wrote:
I spent the last week training with the best WMA swordsmen in the world at Chivalric Weekend http://chivalricweekend.webs.com/ And what did they all have in common? They all own at least one Albion, and praise their quality.
The best WMA swordsman in the world? Really? Was Guy Windsor there? Because I'd put in at least in the top 5 WMA guys in the world and from what I've seen he mostly uses customs and Lutels. I don't recall seeing any Albions in his collection. But the general opinion is, that if you need to convince people that you're the best swordsman in the world, you need the most expensive and hyped swords out there.
No, Guy wasn't there, but maybe you should ask his opinion of Albion before you pipe-up on his behalf. To my knowledge, he only comes to the States for WMAW. He stayed with us last summer. I guess I should have put "'some' of the best swordsmen in the world" but I hadn't expected such nit-picky responses. My bad.

As far as Lutel goes, they are nice, as are Arma Bohemia and Arms & Armor. We name-dropping now? Because my point is, Albions ARE good. Just freaky-expensive. Do I have one? Nope. Have I worked with them? Many times, as I have with all the manufacturers I just listed, and many more.

I hate smart-asses.
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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by TheOwl » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:48 pm

I'm not name dropping, just pointing out that your statement was incredibly ignorant and flawed. You're right, you probably should have said "some of the best swordsmen in the world". Making broad generalizations such as "the best swordsmen in the world" is going to draw criticism or "nit picking"

I'm not saying Albions are bad. I'm saying that for the price, you can get two swords that are just as good.

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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by UlfBjorn » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:31 pm

TheOwl wrote:I'm not name dropping, just pointing out that your statement was incredibly ignorant and flawed. You're right, you probably should have said "some of the best swordsmen in the world". Making broad generalizations such as "the best swordsmen in the world" is going to draw criticism or "nit picking"

I'm not saying Albions are bad. I'm saying that for the price, you can get two swords that are just as good.
Are you always so arrogant? Really, have you actually read what you have typed?

Am I taking this personally? Yes. Because you have attacked me. I ask why you have so clearly taken my original statement so personally? Are you perhaps one who sees himself as a great swordsman and feel neglected by my omission of "some"?

It behooves one to approach conflict on the internet in the manner they would face-to-face. Ask yourself, would you be so bold in person? Would Guy want you to ever speak for him? I know that many of the great swordsman who could not make it to the event would not give a care to my unfortunate omission of "some." It is beneath them, yet clearly not beneath you. Now, the great swordsmen who were at Chivalric Weekend do, in fact, own dozens of Albions between them. Albion has some very nice trainers and cutters. Many of us (I say "us" though I do not count myself one of the best swordsmen, just a good one) do prefer Arms & Armor, as Guy does (he buys several each trip to the US), but that was not the purpose of my post. The purpose was to counter a statement made by another poster (perhaps a friend of yours?).

Now, I am VERY curious... who would you list as the other top five swordsmen, besides Guy?
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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by TheOwl » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:55 pm

Yes I'm always this arrogant. In fact this is me dialed back quite a bit. You're welcome.

What happened was I made a playful poke at your broad generalization and now you're captain butthurt. No I'm not an official representative of Guy Windsor, but replace his name with anyone if it makes you feel better. Sorry I picked someone that apparently represents a tender spot for you emotionally, but it's just an example. relax.


Top five in No particular order,

Guy Windsor
Stephen Hand
Christian Henry Tobler
Paul Wagner
Steven Leon

And of course
ME

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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by UlfBjorn » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:28 am

A pet-peeve of mine is schmucks with big internet balls hiding behind a keyboard. Schmucks who'd go out of their way to not offend me if we met in public.

The Guy Windsor thing? Well, I doubt you've been to his place in Finland to know everything he has in his collection, and I know he'd object to your demeanor. Had You used Christian as an example, well, this would've been a lot worse as he's my Grandmaster, instructor and best-friend of the past six years and I know he owns three Albions currently, among a shit-ton of other swords.

Your list list doesn't surprise me and I wonder if we'll cross swords next year at WMAW.
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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by ninja-elbow » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:43 am

...and thus, a modern duel is born...

hrumph hrumph hrumph :roll:
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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by TheOwl » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:42 pm

UlfBjorn wrote:A pet-peeve of mine is schmucks with big internet balls hiding behind a keyboard. Schmucks who'd go out of their way to not offend me if we met in public.

The Guy Windsor thing? Well, I doubt you've been to his place in Finland to know everything he has in his collection, and I know he'd object to your demeanor. Had You used Christian as an example, well, this would've been a lot worse as he's my Grandmaster, instructor and best-friend of the past six years and I know he owns three Albions currently, among a shit-ton of other swords.

Your list list doesn't surprise me and I wonder if we'll cross swords next year at WMAW.
Now who's namedropping... Jesus.


Stop being a baby. If I met you in person and you made a comment as ignorant as the one you made, yes I'd probably call you out on it. I didn't challenge your wife to a fistfight, I made fun of a generalization that you made. You made a dumb comment and someone called you out on it. Grow up. I might not have been as nice as possible, but I'm not really a nice guy. However, if I had known that you would react as though I just headbutted your mother I might have sugarcoated it for you.

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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by Jeriah » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:54 pm

Hey guys? I think both of you are taking way more offense than the other intended, and should probably just say you're sorry and didn't mean to offend. I'm not saying this because I want to be all hippie touchy-feely feel good, singing Cumbaya, I'm saying this because it sounds like you both know a lot more about this topic than I do, and I want MOAR INFOS!!!

Could I request, from each of you, a breakdown of, in your opinion, the best swords out there, their advantages, and disadvantages? I'll post mine first but I expect that I'm wrong about a lot and there's loads more I don't know.

1. Albion. From what I know, these are the best, but you pay for what you get. Roman Re-enactors love their gladius...gladiuses...gladii, whatever. They swear by 'em. If I had a shitload of money, like more than I'm ever likely to have, I'd probably buy a few things from these guys.

2. Arms and Armor. Never heard of 'em. Tell me moar!

3. Lutel. Never heard of 'em. Tell me moar!

4. Arms Bohemia. Never heard of 'em. Tell me moar!

5. Museum Replicas/Windlass Steelcrafts. Most people's entry-level sword, perfectly acceptable as a wall hanger, and sturdy enough for some cutting practice. Made in India, which keeps the cost down. I actually haven't heard anything really bad about their steel or construction. Is there anything wrong with these? Their gladius has some historical accuracy issues, which makes me wonder about the rest.

6. Cold Steel. I own their Scottish Broadsword. Seems well made, stood up well to my hacking through milk jugs full of water that Steph was pitching to me. Oh, and it busted a tossed coconut right in half. No damage to blade. More expensive than MRL usually, but if you wait for a sale you can get 'em for less. I would never have paid full price for one of these, but at $99 during their Christmas sale, I'm quite happy with my purchase. I'm hoping to score a similar deal this coming Christmas, on something else...maybe an Italian Longsword. But, again, only if it's $100 or so.

Can either of you add any info to this, or correct any misinformation I have? Thanks!
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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by ninja-elbow » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:04 pm

Jeriah wrote:
5. Museum Replicas/Windlass Steelcrafts. Most people's entry-level sword, perfectly acceptable as a wall hanger, and sturdy enough for some cutting practice. Made in India, which keeps the cost down. I actually haven't heard anything really bad about their steel or construction. Is there anything wrong with these? Their gladius has some historical accuracy issues, which makes me wonder about the rest.
Jeriah is level 2, I am level 3 but only becasue I was in the SCA for 8-9 years ... take that for what it is worth.

MR stuff cons are the historical inaccuracies so people wanting historically correct stuff and that is important to them don't like MR weapons. They are affordable though and look great on the wall, on your hip at the "Faire" and occasionally cutting something. Perfect for the majority of our purposes.

For a few bucks more you can get something way cooler though (notice I did not say better) like Tinker production stuff, not custom as that is a lot more. Heck, Tinker production line stuff could actually be cheaper than some MR swords.

It's all I got :|
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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by Howaido » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:24 pm

Now who's namedropping... Jesus.
Now THAT is namedropping. :D

I am planning on adding a windlass bowie to my collection. It is 1085 carbon steel with a full tang.
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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by TheOwl » Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:03 pm

Jeriah wrote:
1. Albion. From what I know, these are the best, but you pay for what you get. Roman Re-enactors love their gladius...gladiuses...gladii, whatever. They swear by 'em. If I had a shitload of money, like more than I'm ever likely to have, I'd probably buy a few things from these guys.
I've handled a few Albions and like I said before, they're very good. But In my opinion they're very overhyped. The Maestro line is pretty decent price-wise and very good quality, but their upper end stuff is nice, but not worth the money in my opinion.
Jeriah wrote:2. Arms and Armor. Never heard of 'em. Tell me moar!
http://www.Armor.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; These guys make VERY nice everything. But once again, pretty pricey. I've handled less of these than I have Albions, but they have all been top notch, especially their rapiers.
Jeriah wrote:3. Lutel. Never heard of 'em. Tell me moar!
http://www.lutel.cz" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; These guys are from the Czech republic. Very nice stuff and relatively affordable before you factor in shipping but there are a few guys in the US who deal through them to keep shipping costs down. They do a lot of Katzbalgers and other Landsknecht-y stuff. I know a few German groups that used Lutel exclusively.
Jeriah wrote:4. Arms Bohemia. Never heard of 'em. Tell me moar!
I don't have any experience with these guys personally, but they're certainly pretty..
Jeriah wrote:5. Museum Replicas/Windlass Steelcrafts. Most people's entry-level sword, perfectly acceptable as a wall hanger, and sturdy enough for some cutting practice. Made in India, which keeps the cost down. I actually haven't heard anything really bad about their steel or construction. Is there anything wrong with these? Their gladius has some historical accuracy issues, which makes me wonder about the rest.
Windlass tends to be fairly hit or miss which gets them a lot of slack from people, but I have several of their pieces and I'm a big fan. A lot of people complain that they're "whippy" and that they are no good for actual use. However, nobody can explain to me what "whippy means, and one of my favorite longswords for training is a windlass and it holds up admirably to use.
Jeriah wrote:6. Cold Steel. I own their Scottish Broadsword. Seems well made, stood up well to my hacking through milk jugs full of water that Steph was pitching to me. Oh, and it busted a tossed coconut right in half. No damage to blade. More expensive than MRL usually, but if you wait for a sale you can get 'em for less. I would never have paid full price for one of these, but at $99 during their Christmas sale, I'm quite happy with my purchase. I'm hoping to score a similar deal this coming Christmas, on something else...maybe an Italian Longsword. But, again, only if it's $100 or so.
Cold Steel... Not a fan of their product or the company in general. However, I own one of their Hand & a Half's and it's one of my favorite cutters, though their swords are made by various different companies over time so it's hit or miss depending on what era your sword was made in. Mine is tough as nails whereas I've seen the pommel snap off of others after somebody stared at it too hard, so it really depends.

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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by AcidExfoliate » Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:00 pm

Ok, on the Albion thing. They're nice. no one is contesting that. But the problem is that THEY think they're much nicer than , well, they actually are. For the price of a Albion thats an 8 on a 1-to-10 scale, you could get three Lutels that are ALSO 8's. And for the price of the SCABBARD to an Albion you could buy 3 Valiant Signature line pieces that's just AAAAAALMOST as nice and has a scabbard that IS as nice. That's my beef with Albion. They're Cold Steel in practice, but they actually DO have the quality. It's frustrating, because they really WERE the best historically accurate swords on the market till last year when Valiant kicked it up a notch (Bam.) and they were just cost prohibitive for most people who might WANT a good, real sword. They DON'T have Peter Johnsson working there full time. they AREN'T hammer forged. they're just....they're a lot of money for a production sword.

The reason that bothers me SO much is that I got my CUSTOM Tinker Pierce Great Sword of War for the price of a PRODUCTION Albion, and mine came with a simple scabbard, for free. If they could boast higher quality than my sword, I'd be perfectly willing to say "Yes, Absolutely, buy an Albion" but ....they aren't :\


I'm the knife guy, TheOwl is the sword guy so I haven't played with any A&A or Bohemia pieces, but from a purely practical standpoint, Albion isn't enough better than Valiant to be worth four times the money.
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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by UlfBjorn » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:15 pm

The Owl and AcidExfoliate are pretty-much dead-on with their assessments of the swordmakers reviewed. Lutels are all the Landsknecht rage! :) The Albions are horrifically-priced and are anticipating a 30% price increase before the end of the year, but they are also very beautiful (at least the ones I've seen and handled are), and are superb cutters.

I have experience with these Albion models specifically (though I've handled several more):
The Berserkr (my favorite cutter of all-time) http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... rserkr.htm
The Sempach http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... -xvii2.htm
The Vassal http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... lchion.htm
The Knecht http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... ark-II.htm
The Brescia Spadona http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/joh ... rescia.htm

I've bouted with:
(Albion) The Meyer http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... -meyer.htm
(Albion) The Liechtenauer http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... enauer.htm
(A&A) The Fechterspiel http://www.armor.com/train203.html
But most regularly use the good-ole cheap Hanwei Federschrwert http://www.casiberia.com/prod_Detail.aspx?id=SH2333 as they're affordable enough to beat the crap outta.


As for scabbards for any of these, I'd recommend Christian Fletcher: http://www.christianfletcher.com/Christ ... lcome.html. He fit my Gus Trim with very nice repro 14th Cen. Scottish fittings and a most-excellent scabbard.

Arma Bohemia: http://www.armabohemia.cz/
I've handled one of their Dagan and it is superb! I must admit I haven't cut with it, but based on its balance and edge-geometry, I don't think it would disappoint. I've also used one of their polaxes extensively, and am very impressed with its fit and finish. I will be ordering one of their messers within the next year, as well as a late 14th Cen. rondel.

Arms & Armor: http://www.armor.com/
I was fortunate to be gifted with their Hungarian Axe http://www.armor.com/pole104.html It is incredibly light and handles fast with all our polaxe drills. I haven't cut with it yet though. I have handled an A&A custom version of the German Branch Sword http://www.armor.com/sword078.html and it is one of the most beautiful and well-balanced Longswords I've yet handled. The twist-work on the hilt is outstanding.

Now, if you really want to see superb craftsmanship check out Jake Powning (the man is a god!): http://www.powning.com/jake/home/j_homepg.shtml
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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by ninja-elbow » Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:02 am

I had no idea there was a Landsknecht thing going on. I've been a fan of that time era since I fought with an Arizona Landsknecht unit in the SCA's 30 Year Celebration (1995 or 1996?) - our group teamed up with thier's for a worldwide tournament of armies and we took 3rd place of 30 units that day and we had never worked with these guys before and we all kicked ass and got drunk and gambled! We later hired on to them at Estrella in 1998 and sported all day with distinction there.

Anyways, I always thought Landsknecht re-inactors were low-key (in size and popularity not appearance) which was always the appeal to me and my plan in the late 90s was to build a persona for one. I already had Viking (Varangian) and Scythian personas and gear. I ended up quiting re-enacting in 2001 though so never got there.

Are Landsknechts the new thing in the western martial arts and re-enacting world?
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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by Jeriah » Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:20 am

AcidExfoliate wrote:Ok, on the Albion thing. They're nice. no one is contesting that. But the problem is that THEY think they're much nicer than , well, they actually are. For the price of a Albion thats an 8 on a 1-to-10 scale, you could get three Lutels that are ALSO 8's. And for the price of the SCABBARD to an Albion you could buy 3 Valiant Signature line pieces that's just AAAAAALMOST as nice and has a scabbard that IS as nice. That's my beef with Albion. They're Cold Steel in practice, but they actually DO have the quality. It's frustrating, because they really WERE the best historically accurate swords on the market till last year when Valiant kicked it up a notch (Bam.)
Valiant seems to have a pretty steep drop-off between their Signature and Standard product lines:

http://www.valiant-armoury.com/standard.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Those are some of the most hideous pieces of crap I've ever seen. They look like they were just slapped together out of bar stock and polished. Terrible.

Whereas the Signature stuff looks nice although they're out of most of it.
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Re: Need a good medieval sword!

Post by AcidExfoliate » Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:04 pm

Jeriah wrote:
Valiant seems to have a pretty steep drop-off between their Signature and Standard product lines:

http://www.valiant-armoury.com/standard.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Those are some of the most hideous pieces of crap I've ever seen. They look like they were just slapped together out of bar stock and polished. Terrible.

Whereas the Signature stuff looks nice although they're out of most of it.
And that was a constant gripe of the designer (who now works for us, since the company he was with (which owned) valiant went under and valiant was re-sold.) He's a great guy and knows his stuff, but they could just never get the Philippines to manufacture the way they wanted. Luckily Sonny, the new owner of valiant, is retooling a lot of the older pieces, and they should be real swords by the end of the year instead of mounted bar-stock.

(We're NOT out of most of the Signature line, in case you needed any ;) )
UlfBjorn wrote: Now, if you really want to see superb craftsmanship check out Jake Powning (the man is a god!): http://www.powning.com/jake/home/j_homepg.shtml
Or Patrick Barta, oh my GOD!
http://www.templ.net/english/

On a side note, we just got the Malatesta from Valiant in, and I would NOT recommend it for beginners! .....but that is what a sword should BE, I tell you! It's PERFECT!
Only Hits Count!
Fast is fine, accuracy is final; you can't miss fast enough to win a gun fight.
.45/Cheesecake/M1A (Till i get a FAL anyway)

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