All out of Ammo in the PAW

For those who live in areas where firearms are not an option and those that are smart enough to have a back up.

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All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by bigmattdaddywack » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:09 pm

Ok its in the PAW and somehow there is no ammo any where for your guns and artillery. What would be your weapons of choice for wandering in the wastelands or protecting your fort and farm
Swords? Knives? Bows?. Anything, any combination. Real items is what I am after. Fake only as a bonus. Spells and Familiars are not allowed :D.
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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by JTNieman » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:17 pm

If no firearm, then; http://www.coldsteel.com/boarspear.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Image

However, I think I'd quickly find myself in search of how to make gunpowder so I can make my own ammo.

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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by rburch » Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:34 pm

Okay, first step is to go to your local book store and get the book Dies the Fire by SM Stirling. Yes it's fiction, and written to tell a good story, but I think it's a pretty good example of what life would be like if guns were no longer functional.

To answer the question myself:

I tend to divide the weapons into categories.

Ranged
This is your rifle, your main weapon. It's what you hunt with, it what you use to defend yourself without having to run up and stand next to your enemy.

I'd go with a good recurve or longbow. The one I have now is a recurve 45 pound draw. I'd want to move up to at least a 55 pound bow if it's to be my main ranged weapon though. I'd stay away from modern bows, mainly due to personal preference, but justified because parts for a compound bow or even a fiberglass recurve will be harder to fabricate than one of wood.

A quality crossbow would be an good choice as well, especially if you aren't at least moderately skilled with a bow, and/or don't have time to practice to become proficient.

Pole Arms
This would be your first choice when forced to enter melee, a big weapon with reach, letting you still keep some distance. Doesn't really have a modern equivalent...

A good spear like the Boar Spear JamesCannon posted is always a good option, I'd also look into a Pole-Axe, Glaive, or Halberd. I like my spears long, almost to Pike length, but from playing around with various weapons I find a shorter Pole-Axe or Halberd (about my own height) with a counterweight that is stout and heavy enough to function as a small mace to work really well for me.

General Melee
This would be the equivalent of your sidearm, the weapon you have on you all the time.

I'd prefer a quality chinese broadsword for this role myself (The style feels pretty natural to me, when I sparred with one), but a medium sized fighting axe, mace, warhammer, longsword, etc. (Hell even a katana) are all valid choices providing you have a real one and not some cheap wall hanger. Machetes also fill this slot nicely.

If this happens in the next year or so, I'm going to be using my Cold Steel Horseman's Basket Hilt Broadsword, since it's what I actually own that will stand up to use.

Light Arms
These are your back up weapons. They perform mostly utility tasks, but are useful in combat as well.

I'd probably choose a good fixed blade knife, my Cold Steel Finn Bear and my 12" Sax machete are what I have at the moment, but I'm looking for a good tanto fighter. A tomahawk or small hatchet wouldn't be a bad option either.

Armor
This is often overlooked, but if the PAW last long enough that most folks no longer have firearms, or you're in an area where guns aren't in common use, then a good set of armor is in your interest. Lots of options there, from modern "Anti-Stab" vests to leather or even chainmail and plate armor. If guns are around, then forget armor.

I'd love to have a set of plate armor built for me. No way I afford it in this lifetime, and I don't have the skills to repair it if i did have it. I could make chainmail, I started making a chainmail shirt in high school for fun. I worked about a month at least a couple hours a day, and made a section about 1 foot square. Chainmail is a PITA, so I'd forgo that myself.

I'd go brigandine if I was making it from scratch today. A jacket of sturdy leather, with small metal plates riveted to it. Pretty quick to make if you have any skill with leather.

A good shield is also something to have it guns aren't around.

Loading up
What I'd carry would depend on my tasks and weight. Hunting would be a Bow or Spear, my sword, and a good knife. Armor if I have it, but no shield. If I'm working around the home fort, then Sword and Bow, knife. I'd keep the pole arm handy around the home to fight off raiders.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by Finch » Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:39 pm

Image

also i could throw my glock



i have

2k+ of .223 (just under 1k in mags)
1500 of x39
1243 of '06
870 of x54r
1k of mixed 12 gauge
2k of .22lr
500 of 9mm

if i'm down to knifes i must be invincible
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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by ninja-elbow » Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:39 pm

I'm kinda with Finch - meanining that if I run out, I done survived a kind of big fire fight and I'm sure there will be some laying about I can get.

Anyways, what I own that I'd use?

CS Spetz shovel
Wetterlings 16" axe
Leukko (coming in a few days from Ragnar - merry xmas to me)
Mongol horsebow
long bow

Then, there's all the stuff I own that I could use if I went nuts enough:
Danish axe, gambeson, goggled helm, byrnie
sword and shield
langsaex (a Tinker BTW) and shield
spear
scandahoovian hand axe

If I was in Dies the Fire by Sterling, I'd be stuck in Portland working for the Duke or whoever that Douche is. I'm pretty sure I'd get tortured and executed right fast or maybe find my way down I-5 to one of the more benevolant protagonists of our story. I know too many SCA guys.
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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by Eisenbart » Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:44 pm

Hmm. I'd recomend to read some other posts on << other weapons >>
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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by doc savage » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:10 pm

i'd be stepping immediately to the flintlock category.
recast ammo [ tire weights, elevator counter weights etc. ( or rocks and nails in the smoothbore if it comes to it)], powder you can make at home or in nature from minimal supplies ( you just need the knowhow and a pestle and mortar). flint from the ground, when my origianl chunk finally knaps down to unusability ( again, knowing what terrain to look in). my defense range will not decrease, only my overall accuracy.

tomahawk, good knife for close in. boiled leather armor if for some reason my trauma plates explode and my vest melts to goo ?

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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by Redbad » Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:19 pm

You might want to look at TM 31-210 The Improvised Munitions Handbook, found here: http://stevespages.com/page7c.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

The Improvised Munitions Handbook was created for Special Forces operators who were placed in situations where munitions and firearms might have to be improvised. There is a recipe for blackpowder. There are instructions on reloading ammunition. There are also several designs for zip guns and other improvised zombie killing devices.

Much, if not most of the material contained in the Improvised Munitions Handbook is illegal under state and federal laws (in the US). Definitely do not try the projects in the book unless you are actually in a ZPAW unless you want to spend time looking at four walls.

Unless you have experience with a primitive muzzleloader, you should stick to modern firearms. Primitive muzzleloaders are great weapons, but if used incorrectly they can be very dangerous to the person shooting the weapon (think substituting FFFFg for FFg blackpowder).
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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by shrimpwd » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:04 pm

I have a short sword made by Badger Blades that I like to keep close, but aside from the rotten fruit or dead washing machine, I haven't had much need for it. Also, I have a few vests of chain mail, as that is one of my jobs*. I still want to get a 14' awl pike, but have no walls long enough in my room to store such a length yet...

Image
This weighs in at 11lbs. Feels nice. If I wanted 3lbs off, I'd go with my 14g 5/16" Bright Aluminum vest.

*I was a carpenter for about 2.5 years, but with the economy the way it is, I've been unemployed for about 14 months. I have been making mail armor and jewelry for close to 11 years now, and I have made my only money these past months through some sales. Not much, but better than nothing.

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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by 2now » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:02 am

How about a latex powered crossbow?

After that I like axes, handy tools and scary weapons to face.
they come in all sizes [sm, med, lg, Xl, XXL and OMG]

Armor is a good idea, I have a 1/2 suit of plate from the SCA, and the tools and know how to make chain mail and boiled leather.

Other chemical weapons are worth considering, depeding on what you have in your area.
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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by bonanacrom » Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:17 am

I already know how to make black powder. I'll stick with things that go boom !
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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by Fire » Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:24 am

if for some reason firearms were simply a no go, then its spears and machete's for me- spears are so damn popular, everywhere and everywhen, for the simple reason that they work so fucking well- and machete's have the same thing going for them in any non hard armored situation- armor would bring back true swords, and axes......
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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by rburch » Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:32 am

bonanacrom wrote:I already know how to make black powder. I'll stick with things that go boom !
I may be off on this, but I've always heard that making black powder in any real quantity was pretty risky.

That the larger your batch the easier it is to go off on you.

Black powder and flintlocks would be a real advantage, but I don't see many people being able to make enough powder to use it as their only weapon.

I think we'd all become musketeers, fire a few rounds until we've closed with the enemy, and then swap to melee weapons.

That said, I really think lack of guns increases the requirement of working together in groups. An AR with a good optic and plenty of ammo could allow one man to hold off a pretty large group if he picked his BIL with care.

I'm not sure many could do the same with a Bow, and I don't know of any that could do so with a melee weapon.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by bigmattdaddywack » Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:41 am

I have also read it is pretty rough to make black powder in small quantites and that it only really pays to make it in larger quantities
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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by dukman » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:25 pm

If there are no guns.... then I would be using hidden traps and pitfalls to protect my property from bandits. Hopefully I would be very self sufficient at that point in time. :roll: I might try my hand at bows and arrows too. Other than that, I cannot discuss here :mrgreen:
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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by Croux » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:50 pm

Well, if I was drawing from my own inventory, I would have either a 3/4 axe or a tomahawk (still haven't decided which one to bring when buggin' out). The axe is big, solid, practical, powerful. The tomahawk can't cut wood as well as the axe, but it's light and still puts a lot of power in one hand. I'm not bad at throwing it either 8)
I also have a small pistol crossbow that I would probably wield. It could really only kill small game, but it would definitely injure someone in a fight enough to give me an advantage.

Now ideally speaking, I would want a bow, a machete, and a telescoping baton. Badass!
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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by EricinVirginia » Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:05 pm

For range, I think spears and slings. Bows are so tempermental and you also have to make arrows. If you have time to make arrows, why not make gunpowder? Up close, spear and machette type blades.

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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by ninja-elbow » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:16 pm

I have the know-how, tools and experience in making arrows. Gunpowder is sorcery to me, best left for buying.
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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by donjulio » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:34 pm

I can make gunpowder, bows, arrows, spears, etc. I would probably keep a machete handy as well.
Maybe this one.
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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by parabarbarian » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:53 pm

How about something like these:

http://www.pyramydair.com/career-dragon ... view.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.quackenbushairguns.com/308_exile.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not as good as a modern firearms, of course, but still probably better than a crossbow.

I'd have to rig a compressor and learn to cast boolits. Put my older Engineering degree to work....
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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by a_knight_shall_come » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:49 pm

Alright, if I'm out of modern ammo, I'd switch to percussion rifles/shotguns(1 of each), and when those run out, I'd take the flintlocks (3) down from the mantelpiece...already have lots of powder and melted-down tire-weight ingots stored up.
Once guns become glorified clubs, I'd go down a rung on the technology ladder and dust off the old recurve, which is only about 35 pound so I'd have an excuse to make that osage longbow I've been putting off for years! Arrows are easy. As a last resort weapon I could use the atlatl/darts I made last year.
This reminds me, I've got a 12-foot trebuchet in the backyard, I need to get that thing back in working condition!
As for melee weapons, I've made a few simple spears, plus I've got a number of tommyhawks, hatchets, axes (large and extra-large), adzes, machetes, and dozens of hammers lying around, plus a longsword and my cricket bat. If worst comes to worst, I could always knap out some flint hand-axes.

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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by rburch » Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:04 am

a_knight_shall_come wrote:Alright, if I'm out of modern ammo, I'd switch to percussion rifles/shotguns(1 of each), and when those run out, I'd take the flintlocks (3) down from the mantelpiece...already have lots of powder and melted-down tire-weight ingots stored up.
Once guns become glorified clubs, I'd go down a rung on the technology ladder and dust off the old recurve, which is only about 35 pound so I'd have an excuse to make that osage longbow I've been putting off for years! Arrows are easy. As a last resort weapon I could use the atlatl/darts I made last year.
This reminds me, I've got a 12-foot trebuchet in the backyard, I need to get that thing back in working condition!
As for melee weapons, I've made a few simple spears, plus I've got a number of tommyhawks, hatchets, axes (large and extra-large), adzes, machetes, and dozens of hammers lying around, plus a longsword and my cricket bat. If worst comes to worst, I could always knap out some flint hand-axes.
Okay, can I come join up with you when the world starts to end?
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by EricinVirginia » Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:22 pm

A trebuchet! Awesome.

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Re: All out of Ammo in the PAW

Post by ninja-elbow » Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:25 pm

I wanna see the trebuchet! Got pics? Not trying to call you out - I just want to see a trebuchet :)

I never messed with anything close to "real" sized ones but I've built scale models of them before and they are interesting.
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