TSA approved pocket knives?

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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by MaconCJ7 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:38 pm

For the utility uselessness of a small, non-locking blade, I would just as soon travel without one than bother. A decent tool will be checked, and if I need a cheap pos, I'll buy one at the destination. It doesn't make air travel any more dangerous to allow these than it is to allow ball point pens and, quite literally, carry on baggage. Bad guys intent on doing bad will find a way.

Yes, the decision to drive planes into the ground has already been made. In the future I expect the cockpits to be augmented with an emergency switch that has no override and lands the plane at the nearest airport. Basically putting it into drone mode. Of course, they might skip that altogether and just go with pilot-less cockpits. The technology is there to remove any threat to commercial airlines being overridden.

Now, TSA in general is nothing more than a feel good measure. People feel safe because they were violated, just like everyone else. Except for the ~25,000 breaches over 10 years. http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/1 ... -10-years/ Just like every other law, only good people abide by it.
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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by Dooms » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:02 pm

So they allow scissors with up to a 4" blade and screwdrivers up to 7" in total length, but limit knives to just over 2" and non-locking. :?

Oh well, I'll take what I can get. I'll just have to grind down the tip on my Victorinox Waiter a little bit. It's about 1/2 a cm too long.

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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by -Jason- » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:18 pm

74 or more wrote:
TacAir wrote:I wouldn't too far ahead on this this. The cabin attendants Union is threatening a 'work action' if knives are allowed again. Seems the change in rules isn't all the popular with the stews...
This article was posted on CNN today. Written by a former flight attendant. Just thought I'd share it.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/07/opinion/h ... ?hpt=hp_c2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The countless other threats that make it past the TSA and they are worried about 2.3 inch blades? :roll:

Case and point:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/03/08/u ... -in-pants/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by NapTime » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:34 pm

Image

Something like this or this might fit the bill. These, you will note, will need to be ground down a few cm, but they have handles big enough to really hold onto, unlike the micro ones with the cute bell. Just my 2 cents for anyone looking for another option to play around with that they wouldn't cry about losing ($19 & $24 respectively).

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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by JoergS » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:46 am

These would work just fine:

http://www.amazon.de/Haller-Mini-Tasche ... 88&sr=8-18" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At just over 4 Euros a piece, quiet affordable.
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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by Mikeyboy » Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:34 am

-Jason- wrote:
74 or more wrote:
TacAir wrote:I wouldn't too far ahead on this this. The cabin attendants Union is threatening a 'work action' if knives are allowed again. Seems the change in rules isn't all the popular with the stews...
This article was posted on CNN today. Written by a former flight attendant. Just thought I'd share it.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/07/opinion/h ... ?hpt=hp_c2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The countless other threats that make it past the TSA and they are worried about 2.3 inch blades? :roll:

Case and point:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/03/08/u ... -in-pants/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I don't know, a box cutter only has about a .75" inch exposed blade and it only took a team of 4 to 5 terrorist armed with box cutters to hijack each plane on 9/11. With armored cockpit doors, all 5 trained and in peak physical condition terrorist would simply use their longer blades and turn their mission into a "slice and dice" attack on the stewardesses and passengers. They could simply slash up and tourture a stewardess so that he/she will give in and open the cockpit door, or shove a stewardess or a child passenger against the cockpit door and let the crew hear their cries for help and demands from the terrorist to open the doors.

In reality though post 9/11 cockpit doors are locked, but "Armored and impenetrable" is not really the case. Certain airlines are better than others, but the sad truth is post 9/11 some airline cockpit doors can still be breeched with brute force.
http://www.secure-skies.org/fortifieddoors.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I was kind of excited about the ability of carry a small knife on board a flight, but now that I really thought about it, I rather have the ban on all knives on US flights stay enforced. With a team of well trained terrorist eached armed with 2.3" knives, it is very possible to have another 9/11 style attack.

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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by MaconCJ7 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:43 am

Mikeyboy wrote: I don't know, a box cutter only has about a .75" inch exposed blade and it only took a team of 4 to 5 terrorist armed with box cutters to hijack each plane on 9/11. With armored cockpit doors, all 5 trained and in peak physical condition terrorist would simply use their longer blades and turn their mission into a "slice and dice" attack on the stewardesses and passengers. They could simply slash up and tourture a stewardess so that he/she will give in and open the cockpit door, or shove a stewardess or a child passenger against the cockpit door and let the crew hear their cries for help and demands from the terrorist to open the doors.

In reality though post 9/11 cockpit doors are locked, but "Armored and impenetrable" is not really the case. Certain airlines are better than others, but the sad truth is post 9/11 some airline cockpit doors can still be breeched with brute force.
http://www.secure-skies.org/fortifieddoors.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I was kind of excited about the ability of carry a small knife on board a flight, but now that I really thought about it, I rather have the ban on all knives on US flights stay enforced. With a team of well trained terrorist eached armed with 2.3" knives, it is very possible to have another 9/11 style attack.
I have a higher faith in the resolve of the passengers these days. The 9/11 attack was unique in nature, and not expected by anyone. History has shown highjacks to never end in such a manner, and the .gov policy was to get the plane landed for refuel, and then do something on the ground. Even during 9/11, passengers forced one plane into a field. Not the desired outcome of course, but I have my doubts about passengers being complacent with bad guys using sharp objects to take over a plane. Again, I go back to TSA being nothing more than a feel good institution, as proven by the thousands of incidents where passengers have gotten stuff through security. I'm betting the vast majority of those incidents were by passengers with no ill intent, and might have even been ignorant of the fact that they did something "wrong". If there was a conspiracy to get something on a plane, there is no doubt that bad guys can do so. In the end, it will be up to the passengers to stop them, as shown by the underwear bomber and the shoe bomber.
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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by 74 or more » Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:55 am

Mikeyboy wrote:I don't know, a box cutter only has about a .75" inch exposed blade and it only took a team of 4 to 5 terrorist armed with box cutters to hijack each plane on 9/11. With armored cockpit doors, all 5 trained and in peak physical condition terrorist would simply use their longer blades and turn their mission into a "slice and dice" attack on the stewardesses and passengers. They could simply slash up and tourture a stewardess so that he/she will give in and open the cockpit door, or shove a stewardess or a child passenger against the cockpit door and let the crew hear their cries for help and demands from the terrorist to open the doors.
I've seen it said before (can't remember if it was on ZS or elsewhere) that it was always assumed that a plane hijacking was survivable. Just stay calm and you'll get out of it alive. And I think that's a big part of the reason they were so successful with the .75" box cutters. Since 9/11 that way of thinking has been challenged and I think people are more likely to fight back against someone wielding a box cutter post 9/11. A perfect example of that is the plane that went down in PA. Once they realized they weren't going to get out of this they fought back. Obviously I can't, with certainty, say how I'd react if I was on a plane with hijackers wielding box cutters but the mere thought of someone threatening me with a small knife (for example 2.36") doesn't exactly strike me with fear.

Mikeyboy wrote:I was kind of excited about the ability of carry a small knife on board a flight, but now that I really thought about it, I rather have the ban on all knives on US flights stay enforced. With a team of well trained terrorist eached armed with 2.3" knives, it is very possible to have another 9/11 style attack.
I won't lose any sleep one way or another. But like I said, post 9/11, I think a plane getting taken over by people with small knives is unlikely. All just my opinion though.
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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by 74 or more » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:10 am

MaconCJ7 wrote: I have a higher faith in the resolve of the passengers these days. The 9/11 attack was unique in nature, and not expected by anyone. History has shown highjacks to never end in such a manner, and the .gov policy was to get the plane landed for refuel, and then do something on the ground. Even during 9/11, passengers forced one plane into a field. Not the desired outcome of course, but I have my doubts about passengers being complacent with bad guys using sharp objects to take over a plane. Again, I go back to TSA being nothing more than a feel good institution, as proven by the thousands of incidents where passengers have gotten stuff through security. I'm betting the vast majority of those incidents were by passengers with no ill intent, and might have even been ignorant of the fact that they did something "wrong". If there was a conspiracy to get something on a plane, there is no doubt that bad guys can do so. In the end, it will be up to the passengers to stop them, as shown by the underwear bomber and the shoe bomber.
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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by ninja-elbow » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:00 am

I'm no hero but if I'm on a plane and it's getting hijacked in this day and age, I'm fighting to the death. Go ahead and stab me, I got hit points bro. Pre 9/11 - I'd stay calm and ride it out. They set a new bar with 9/11 though. I feel many others would do the same and I am not alone. Again, not a hero here. I watched that shit on TV and it was horrible.

That said, I 'aint got no issues with 2.3" knives on passengers.
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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by Mikeyboy » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:05 am

Unfortunately, I don't have that confidence.

Every one of those 19 hijackers had a certain job and trained intensely on their goal. Some learned how to pilot a plane, others were simply the "muscle".

A good example is Mohammed al Qahtani, the 20th hijacker who was detained at Orlando airport by a smart US customs agent named José Meléndez-Pérez on August 4th 2001 and sent back to Saudi Arabia. While the fact that al Qahtani had improperly filled out his paperwork and seem to give conflicting statements was bad enough to have him pull for a secondary screening, Perez was quoted as saying that al Qahtani seemed very ripped physically and in a pre-9/11 world Perez go the impression that he was some sort of hitman. He was turned around and sent back home, and is the reason why flight 93 only had 4 terrorist, while the others had 5. Also understand how special the passengers were on board flight 93. Sitting near each other was Jeremy Glick a 31 year old ex-Nation collegiate Judo Champ, Mark Bingham a 31 year old fit rugby player, Tom Burnett a 38 year old ex high-school and college football Q-back, and Todd Beamer a 32 year old guy in decent shape who after commucating with people on the ground, was the one who said "Are you guys ready? Okay, let's roll" . Those are the guys who lead the charge on flight 93

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_ ... P%C3%A9rez" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Beamer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Bingham" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Burnett" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Glick" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

While the pilot terrorist trained to fly, the muscle were the most physically fit out of al Qaeda's soldiers. While the pilots trained at flight schools in the US, the muscle got additional training in knife fighting in martial arts schools in Europe and the USA.

A non-locking knife can be jury rigged into a locking one. A pre-9/11 team of 5 men, could now be a team of 10 to 12 men. Get a oddball flight that is no fully booked, with the wrong mix of passengers that are old, out of shape or simply not fighters and 9/11 could happen again.

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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by Jamie » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:11 am

I like the idea of traveling with my tiny-sized leatherman or SAK again.

I like having an EDC tool with me, even...especially when traveling.

TSA has been winning the fear/hassle war for Al Qaeda for years...it's high time that we took a little bit back.

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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by 74 or more » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:47 am

Mikeyboy wrote:Also understand how special the passengers were on board flight 93. Sitting near each other was Jeremy Glick a 31 year old ex-Nation collegiate Judo Champ, Mark Bingham a 31 year old fit rugby player, Tom Burnett a 38 year old ex high-school and college football Q-back, and Todd Beamer a 32 year old guy in decent shape who after commucating with people on the ground, was the one who said "Are you guys ready? Okay, let's roll" . Those are the guys who lead the charge on flight 93
I think the point we're trying to make (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that now, post 9/11, it wouldn't be just those 4 guys anymore. It's less likely that a plane full of people would comply now. I personally can't see 4-5 guys keeping control of a whole plane (again, post 9/11) with tiny knives no matter what their training is.
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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by Mikeyboy » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:23 pm

74 or more wrote:
Mikeyboy wrote:Also understand how special the passengers were on board flight 93. Sitting near each other was Jeremy Glick a 31 year old ex-Nation collegiate Judo Champ, Mark Bingham a 31 year old fit rugby player, Tom Burnett a 38 year old ex high-school and college football Q-back, and Todd Beamer a 32 year old guy in decent shape who after commucating with people on the ground, was the one who said "Are you guys ready? Okay, let's roll" . Those are the guys who lead the charge on flight 93
I think the point we're trying to make (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that now, post 9/11, it wouldn't be just those 4 guys anymore. It's less likely that a plane full of people would comply now. I personally can't see 4-5 guys keeping control of a whole plane (again, post 9/11) with tiny knives no matter what their training is.
And the point I'm making is a Airliners interior is a long narrow chokepoint. The Battle of Thermopylae is a good example of how a small but well trained force can hold a larger force back at a choke point. It wasn't just those 4 exceptional guys that rushed the 2 or 3 "muscle" terrorist on flight 93 on 9/11, a majority of the passenger and stewardesses also attacked. However if you now add more terrorist muscle like having say 10 or so terrorist shanking and slicing with small knives instead of box cutters , and you have a high ratio of passengers that are fat, out of shape, too old, or too young and just have no fighting skill set or drive, then the group of terrorist can not only hold back a charge where they are outnumbered 6 to 1, but the could move the line of slashing, stabbing and killing back toward the rear of the plane, and even though they never take over the plane, their terrorist act is simply the slaughter of ever passenger on board. Unfortunately, I fly coach a lot and while I would go "toe to toe" with any terrorist that starts something, even if it means I will die, I don't have confidence when I look around that the majority of other passengers could do the same, when I look around on a typical flight.

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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by firebee » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:58 pm

You could probably write a similar scenario for any given item that is presently allowed on planes, inclusive of the SkyMall catalog and possibly the bag of peanuts. Not to mention the humans themselves -- why is it that these hypothetical badass guys are unstoppable when armed with Swiss Army Classics yet of no account on their own? That, and at least as I recall them the 9/11 attacks were not primarily about knifing the passengers, there was also the tiny matter of gaining access to the cockpit and getting control over the plane which has also been made harder since 9/11.

It doesn't seem like a particularly convincing argument to me, especially when one considers that one could achieve equal or greater effectiveness by setting the same story in (totally random example here) a movie theatre or for that matter by selling us gasoline to put in our automobiles.
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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:15 pm

Statistically, you have a much better chance of dying when your giant kamikaze missile stops functioning/malfunctions/loses guidance (the pilot) in flight than by anyone trying to shank you with a tiny knife or bean you with a golf club aboard said flight, or trying to run your plane into a structure.

Just sayin' this whole derail seems kind of ridiculous. On par with, say, discussing limiting how much change a passenger could carry because they could pool pennies and make a kosh, or sedating in-shape or well-trained passengers (One Mind Any Weapon, anyone?) or preventing passengers from wearing belts.
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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by lowjohn19 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:07 pm

April 25th policy change postponed.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04 ... nives-rule
The Transportation Security Administration has decided to delay a controversial new rule that would have allowed small knives to be carried on passenger aircraft, the agency said Monday,

Bats, golf clubs and other sports equipment that was set to be permitted under the new rule, will also stay banned, for now.

The TSA calls this a temporary delay, but has not decided a new implementation date.

The new rule for mall blades —

shorter than 2.36 inches in length a


less than 1/2 inch in width — had been


set to go into effect April 25th.

"In order to accommodate further input from the Aviation Security Advisory Committee, which includes representatives from the aviation community, passenger advocates, law enforcement experts, and other stakeholders, TSA will temporarily delay implementation of changes to the Prohibited Items List, originally scheduled to go into effect April 25," said a TSA spokesperson.

"This timing will enable TSA to incorporate the ASAC's feedback about the changes to the Prohibited Items List and continue workforce training," they added.

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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by Mikeyboy » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:20 am

lowjohn19 wrote:April 25th policy change postponed.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04 ... nives-rule
The Transportation Security Administration has decided to delay a controversial new rule that would have allowed small knives to be carried on passenger aircraft, the agency said Monday,

Bats, golf clubs and other sports equipment that was set to be permitted under the new rule, will also stay banned, for now.

The TSA calls this a temporary delay, but has not decided a new implementation date.

The new rule for mall blades —

shorter than 2.36 inches in length a


less than 1/2 inch in width — had been


set to go into effect April 25th.

"In order to accommodate further input from the Aviation Security Advisory Committee, which includes representatives from the aviation community, passenger advocates, law enforcement experts, and other stakeholders, TSA will temporarily delay implementation of changes to the Prohibited Items List, originally scheduled to go into effect April 25," said a TSA spokesperson.

"This timing will enable TSA to incorporate the ASAC's feedback about the changes to the Prohibited Items List and continue workforce training," they added.
Makes sense. Post Boston Marathon Bombing, and the Toronto al-Qaeda Cell plot, threat levels have increased sharply for the TSA and DHS. To have a change in policy, and screener training regarding bringing on small knives during all this will just create aniexty and confusion right now. Give it a month or two, tweak a few things if needed, and if its all quiet, then do it.

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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by TacAir » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:39 am

TacAir wrote:I wouldn't too far ahead on this this. The cabin attendants Union is threatening a 'work action' if knives are allowed again. Seems the change in rules isn't all the popular with the stews...
New policy now on hold.

The Cabin Attendants Union has indicated they will not give up on their opposition...
(shrug)

So everything goes in checked baggage...
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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by NT2C » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:56 am

TacAir wrote:
TacAir wrote:I wouldn't too far ahead on this this. The cabin attendants Union is threatening a 'work action' if knives are allowed again. Seems the change in rules isn't all the popular with the stews...
New policy now on hold.

The Cabin Attendants Union has indicated they will not give up on their opposition...
(shrug)

So everything goes in checked baggage...
If airlines actually treated customers like human beings, instead of "walk on cargo", maybe the cabin attendants wouldn't be so concerned about passengers having knives...
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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by ZuluZK » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:20 pm

I won't hold my breath.

I haven't carried a knife that small or ineffective since I was about 10.

I don't plan to start now.
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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by works4dhs » Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:57 pm

Knives still not allowed.
updates as available.

a TSA guy told me. a few times passengers have come thru with knives insisting they were now legal ('Didn't you guys get the memo?'). they ain't.
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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by Jeriah » Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:15 pm

If anyone tries to hijack a plane I'm on with a non-locking, 2.3" blade Swiss Army Knife, that motherfucker is going beat the fuck to death with a rolled up copy of SkyMall. Actually, I'd probably just smack him with it yelling, "Bad puppy!" until he drops the knife.
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Re: TSA approved pocket knives?

Post by Blitzen2k5 » Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:41 pm

Mikeyboy wrote:
74 or more wrote:
Mikeyboy wrote:Also understand how special the passengers were on board flight 93. Sitting near each other was Jeremy Glick a 31 year old ex-Nation collegiate Judo Champ, Mark Bingham a 31 year old fit rugby player, Tom Burnett a 38 year old ex high-school and college football Q-back, and Todd Beamer a 32 year old guy in decent shape who after commucating with people on the ground, was the one who said "Are you guys ready? Okay, let's roll" . Those are the guys who lead the charge on flight 93
I think the point we're trying to make (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that now, post 9/11, it wouldn't be just those 4 guys anymore. It's less likely that a plane full of people would comply now. I personally can't see 4-5 guys keeping control of a whole plane (again, post 9/11) with tiny knives no matter what their training is.
And the point I'm making is a Airliners interior is a long narrow chokepoint. The Battle of Thermopylae is a good example of how a small but well trained force can hold a larger force back at a choke point. It wasn't just those 4 exceptional guys that rushed the 2 or 3 "muscle" terrorist on flight 93 on 9/11, a majority of the passenger and stewardesses also attacked. However if you now add more terrorist muscle like having say 10 or so terrorist shanking and slicing with small knives instead of box cutters , and you have a high ratio of passengers that are fat, out of shape, too old, or too young and just have no fighting skill set or drive, then the group of terrorist can not only hold back a charge where they are outnumbered 6 to 1, but the could move the line of slashing, stabbing and killing back toward the rear of the plane, and even though they never take over the plane, their terrorist act is simply the slaughter of ever passenger on board. Unfortunately, I fly coach a lot and while I would go "toe to toe" with any terrorist that starts something, even if it means I will die, I don't have confidence when I look around that the majority of other passengers could do the same, when I look around on a typical flight.
I studied martial arts for 20 years. Goju Ryu, Aiki Jujitsu, Ia Jujitsu, and Escrima. I hate to fight. I try to talk my way out of a fight or even run if possible. But sadly I have had to resort violence a few times. The only real life fight that I was really worried in was when I was trying to remove a movie patron that didnt want to go when I worked at a movie theater. It became a fight real quick and he had zero training. He was just a belligerent customer that didnt like being kicked out for being noisy. And afterwards I thank my lucky stars I managed to get help with him. He was totally unpredictable. His telegraphs were completely wild. Crazy almost. He had no goal and his transitions were chaotic at best. He would do one thing then another completely out of whack. Now I have been worried in real fights. But not like this guy.

So you got 5 terrorists on a plane. Possibly trained in martial arts. And armed with box knives. And you got 100 or more passengers that remember 9/11 real well.... My money is on the passengers.

You used the battle of thermoplyae as an example. Dont forget the greeks still lost that battle. Yeah they held out a few days but in the end they lost. As would the 5 terrorists armed with box knives. Yah they got the bottleneck. But they cant hold out against over 100 passengers. They will fall eventually.

I will end this with an old story I tell a lot to people. I am paraphrasing it but it makes sense here....

Once upon a time (all good stories start with this), an old man was walking with his grandson in the woods. As they walked they happened on a fox chasing a rabbit. The old man looked to his grandson and asked "Which will win? The fox or the rabbit?"
The grandson thought for a moment "The fox will win." he replied. "Oh and why do you think that?" The grandfather asked. "Because the fox is hungry." the grandson answered.
The old man began to laugh. "That is why the fox will not win." The grandson looked confused so the old man explained further "You see grandson, the fox is only running for his dinner. The rabbit is running for his life."

The terrorists are the fox. They are going to be martyred either way. The passengers are the rabbit. They still have a chance to live.
Looking down at this barren land once known as home before. Destruction, all the world. It's an ending we have brought.
Wyatt Earth Lyrics

All the evil in the world can be seen in the eyes of a chicken.

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