melee weapons?

For those who live in areas where firearms are not an option and those that are smart enough to have a back up.

Moderator: ZS Global Moderators

User avatar
Valarius
* * * * *
Posts: 3231
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:42 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: Shaun of the Dead and many of Romero's films.
Location: Around Nevada.
Contact:

Re: melee weapons?

Post by Valarius » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:40 pm

mantis wrote:@neddog....Best argument ever against "melee" toys I mean weapons:

I see your argument and raise this one :awesome: :




Use what you like but get training. Plenty of untrained people--too many--accidentally shoot themselves or others. For real-world examples, watch the news.
See you around, HK. And remember folks: victory is surviving to watch another sunrise.

My female avatar is Saeko Busujima from High School Of The Dead. I'm a dude. :mrgreen:

Homeless survival techniques.

User avatar
mantis
* * * * *
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:56 pm
Location: Brantford, Ontario

Re: melee weapons?

Post by mantis » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:11 am

Valarius wrote:
mantis wrote:@neddog....Best argument ever against "melee" toys I mean weapons:

I see your argument and raise this one :awesome: :




Use what you like but get training. Plenty of untrained people--too many--accidentally shoot themselves or others. For real-world examples, watch the news.
Except of course there are no swordsmen or swords on the planet which can deflect bullets.
Doc Torr wrote:"Those who live by the sword get shot by those who see them coming a hundred yards away."
roscoe wrote:.....and don't plan on being The Humongous - it ain't happening.

NapTime
*
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:14 pm

Re: melee weapons?

Post by NapTime » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:47 pm

OMGTHISGUYISASAMURAI IBOUGHTABUDKSWORDIAMASAMURAITOO SPEEDINGBULLETS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzhs1Z8Rwnk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(a guy cutting a BB out of the air)

zenger
*
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:02 pm

Re: Re: melee weapons?

Post by zenger » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:57 pm

NapTime wrote:OMGTHISGUYISASAMURAI IBOUGHTABUDKSWORDIAMASAMURAITOO SPEEDINGBULLETS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzhs1Z8Rwnk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(a guy cutting a BB out of the air)

Alpha as hell

tapp tapp tapp tappatalk

User avatar
Neddog
* * *
Posts: 316
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:45 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: High School of the Dead
Juan de los Muertos
Land of the Dead
Zombieland
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: melee weapons?

Post by Neddog » Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:02 pm

ninja-elbow wrote:A broken broom stick in skilled hands (or hammer, or rock, or 1 inch rope, or a roll of nickels, or judo chop hands, or...) > than a $900 sword in unskilled hands.

I get your point Neddog, but getting an expensive piece (or quibbling over what it is called via price) does not mean one will train with it. I know plenty of people, up to and including me, that own multi-hundred $$ pieces that I don't train with. I buy them because the yare neat to have and look better than $30 wall-hangers.

I train with a Glock because that is what I have and carry for self defense. If I win the lottery and retire in my early 40s (so, like right now) than I'll go train with my sword/spear/axe. Until then I'm going to rely on the pistol and any martial arts training I have had in the past that has stuck in my muscle memory, including the years I have spent as a bouncer, to hold me through.

This is why I suggest "go to a karate dojo" over "buy X".
Very true, Ninja! :) But remember that my main point was not that a $900 sword buyer is highly likely to get training to use a sword. My point is that a $900 sword buyer is MORE likely to get training to use a sword than somebody else would be to train in using a hammer as a weapon. That's kind of an unrealistic expectation, so when the point was made of "An estwing framing hammer in the hands of someone that uses it like an extension of their body is much more frightening to me than someone with a sword that thinks they know what they are doing because theyve seen it in movies.", that is the specific quote I was responding to. Although I agree with the overall sentiment - How many people have gone through such rigorous martial arts training with an Estwing hammer that it becomes an extension of their body? :rofl:

Though personally, I find swordsmanship to actually be a very poor field to rely on for self-defense in anything but a full-out Zombie Apocalypse. You gotta use what you have, and I see very few people who keep a sword by their side ready to draw in this day and age. ;) Open hand combat I think is the most important training to have. I always carry a knife somewhere on me, as it is the most essential tool for daily chores. Yet I have been mugged and attacked many times by armed and unarmed assailants, always unsuccessfully, and have never once drawn a weapon or thought of drawing a weapon. My bare hands and reflexes have always taken down my opponent usually before I even realize what's happening.

So if you're training with a weapon... and this includes firearms as much as hand weapons... I think it's very important to be realistic about what will actually be available to you. Now, if you're a carpenter then seeking specific hammer-wielding training would be a good idea - if you can find it. :) Or in your case, you carry a glock as a sidearm so that is the best weapon for you to train in. For a Canadian, you probably don't want to train in firearms for self-defense as most Canadians won't be able to take one anywhere but hunting or the range. Or maybe you're more concerned about wild animals than muggers... in which case your training might consist of the machete and axe - your bushcraft tools.
Last edited by Neddog on Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ned Yeung, A.C.E.
cyclopsphoto.ca

User avatar
mantis
* * * * *
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:56 pm
Location: Brantford, Ontario

Re: melee weapons?

Post by mantis » Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:34 pm

NapTime wrote:OMGTHISGUYISASAMURAI IBOUGHTABUDKSWORDIAMASAMURAITOO SPEEDINGBULLETS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzhs1Z8Rwnk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(a guy cutting a BB out of the air)
That's a plastic airsoft BB fired from a toy gun. You can often see those things moving through the air - they aren't very fast.
Doc Torr wrote:"Those who live by the sword get shot by those who see them coming a hundred yards away."
roscoe wrote:.....and don't plan on being The Humongous - it ain't happening.

User avatar
mantis
* * * * *
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:56 pm
Location: Brantford, Ontario

Re: melee weapons?

Post by mantis » Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:41 pm

Neddog wrote:For a Canadian, you probably don't want to train in firearms for self-defense as most Canadians won't be able to take one anywhere but hunting. Or maybe you're more concerned about wild animals than muggers... in which case your training might consist of the machete and axe - your bushcraft tools.
100% absolutely incorrect. There is no law in Canada that says firearms may only be used for hunting. Indeed, non-restritcted firearms can be discharged anywhere it is safe and not prohibited to do so and restricted firearms MUST be used at a range only. Also, you cannot carry with you any object - a knife or otherwise for the stated purpose of self-defence. You can, however, legally use an object such as a firearm or a knife that you have in your posession for a lawful purpose in a self-defence situation should the need arise.
Doc Torr wrote:"Those who live by the sword get shot by those who see them coming a hundred yards away."
roscoe wrote:.....and don't plan on being The Humongous - it ain't happening.

zenger
*
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:02 pm

Re: Re: melee weapons?

Post by zenger » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:45 pm

mantis wrote:
NapTime wrote:OMGTHISGUYISASAMURAI IBOUGHTABUDKSWORDIAMASAMURAITOO SPEEDINGBULLETS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzhs1Z8Rwnk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(a guy cutting a BB out of the air)
That's a plastic airsoft BB fired from a toy gun. You can often see those things moving through the air - they aren't very fast.
Armchair commando. :P

Post a video show us how it is done.




tapp tapp tapp tappatalk

User avatar
Neddog
* * *
Posts: 316
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:45 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: High School of the Dead
Juan de los Muertos
Land of the Dead
Zombieland
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: melee weapons?

Post by Neddog » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:03 pm

mantis wrote:100% absolutely incorrect. There is no law in Canada that says firearms may only be used for hunting. Indeed, non-restritcted firearms can be discharged anywhere it is safe and not prohibited to do so and restricted firearms MUST be used at a range only. Also, you cannot carry with you any object - a knife or otherwise for the stated purpose of self-defence. You can, however, legally use an object such as a firearm or a knife that you have in your posession for a lawful purpose in a self-defence situation should the need arise.
Right... so if you're not on the way to the range or out to hunt, and you're not allowed to carry your firearm for self-defense... then what is the "lawful purpose" for an average Canadian to be wearing a firearm? That's the whole point. We do not have "the right to bear arms" like American citizens. You can't just get a CCW permit and carry around your sidearm in public. Most Canadians don't even have a PAL to obtain a firearm in the first place, at least not in the west. Hell, the majority of locals I know don't even know what a PAL is, nor would they have a reason to ask.

PS, I never once made mention of any laws in Canada or otherwise in the post you responded to.
Ned Yeung, A.C.E.
cyclopsphoto.ca

User avatar
mantis
* * * * *
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:56 pm
Location: Brantford, Ontario

Re: melee weapons?

Post by mantis » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:21 pm

Neddog wrote:
mantis wrote:100% absolutely incorrect. There is no law in Canada that says firearms may only be used for hunting. Indeed, non-restritcted firearms can be discharged anywhere it is safe and not prohibited to do so and restricted firearms MUST be used at a range only. Also, you cannot carry with you any object - a knife or otherwise for the stated purpose of self-defence. You can, however, legally use an object such as a firearm or a knife that you have in your posession for a lawful purpose in a self-defence situation should the need arise.
Right... so if you're not on the way to the range or out to hunt, and you're not allowed to carry your firearm for self-defense... then what is the "lawful purpose" for an average Canadian to be wearing a firearm? That's the whole point. We do not have "the right to bear arms" like American citizens. You can't just get a CCW permit and carry around your sidearm in public. Most Canadians don't even have a PAL to obtain a firearm in the first place, at least not in the west. Hell, the majority of locals I know don't even know what a PAL is, nor would they have a reason to ask.

PS, I never once made mention of any laws in Canada or otherwise in the post you responded to.
I'm not sure where you are getting your information from because it's just plain wrong. Whether you can get a CCW permit to carry a firearm in public is irrelevant to a discussion on weapons - you cannot carry ANYTHING - firearm or otherwise - for self-defence at all. There actually is no law that prohibits the non-concealed carry of a firearm (non-restricted) anywhere except to a public meeting. Having said that - carrying one in an inappropriate place such as down a city street will get you nailed for possession of weapons dangerous to the public - peace - the same charge you would get for carrying a large knife of a sword or anything else as a weapon. Also, let's see the proof that most Canadian firearms owners don't have a PAL....there are 2 million of us who do. You are saying most firearms owners don't so lets see some actual evidence that 2 million plus 1 (as a minimum) do not have their PAL/POL.
Doc Torr wrote:"Those who live by the sword get shot by those who see them coming a hundred yards away."
roscoe wrote:.....and don't plan on being The Humongous - it ain't happening.

User avatar
mantis
* * * * *
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:56 pm
Location: Brantford, Ontario

Re: Re: melee weapons?

Post by mantis » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:22 pm

zenger wrote:
mantis wrote:
NapTime wrote:OMGTHISGUYISASAMURAI IBOUGHTABUDKSWORDIAMASAMURAITOO SPEEDINGBULLETS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzhs1Z8Rwnk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(a guy cutting a BB out of the air)
That's a plastic airsoft BB fired from a toy gun. You can often see those things moving through the air - they aren't very fast.
Armchair commando. :P

Post a video show us how it is done.

tapp tapp tapp tappatalk
It cant' be done aside from with toys like airsoft...even in that case I'm not sure that he really does it.
Doc Torr wrote:"Those who live by the sword get shot by those who see them coming a hundred yards away."
roscoe wrote:.....and don't plan on being The Humongous - it ain't happening.

User avatar
Neddog
* * *
Posts: 316
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:45 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: High School of the Dead
Juan de los Muertos
Land of the Dead
Zombieland
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: melee weapons?

Post by Neddog » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:43 pm

mantis wrote: I'm not sure where you are getting your information from because it's just plain wrong. Whether you can get a CCW permit to carry a firearm in public is irrelevant to a discussion on weapons - you cannot carry ANYTHING - firearm or otherwise - for self-defence at all. There actually is no law that prohibits the non-concealed carry of a firearm (non-restricted) anywhere except to a public meeting. Having said that - carrying one in an inappropriate place such as down a city street will get you nailed for possession of weapons dangerous to the public - peace - the same charge you would get for carrying a large knife of a sword or anything else as a weapon. Also, let's see the proof that most Canadian firearms owners don't have a PAL....there are 2 million of us who do. You are saying most firearms owners don't so lets see some actual evidence that 2 million plus 1 (as a minimum) do not have their PAL/POL.
wtf are you talking about? This "just plain wrong" and "100% absolutely incorrect" information that you keep spouting about was never brought up by anybody but you in the first place. I don't know what you think you're responding to, but it sure as hell wasn't anything I said! :shock: Nothing was ever mentioned about what you just posted, so who are you talking to?

I have to say though... this statement is the funniest of all: "Also, let's see the proof that most Canadian firearms owners don't have a PAL....there are 2 million of us who do. You are saying most firearms owners don't so lets see some actual evidence that 2 million plus 1 (as a minimum) do not have their PAL/POL."

LOL, WTF? Of course Canadian firearm owners have PALs... or they wouldn't be Canadian firearm owners!
If you think I said otherwise, then you're hallucinating. What exactly did you think you were responding to?

What I did say is that most Canadians do not have firearms (and even added the caveat, "in the west"), which is a completely different discussion. And the point made about the CCW permit is that we don't have such an option - just like you said. Argue with yourself much?

Nobody is arguing with you about Canadian law or any of the things you mentioned. So please calm down and stop arguing for the sake of arguing. And also please stop stuffing random words into people's mouths for the sake of arguing with them. That is not appreciated.

Even when replying to your first response to me, I had to add a postscript to clarify that although I'm responding to your points, it was you who brought them up in the first place and these things were not mentioned by me. Now after this post I'm just flabbergasted. How much further will these made-up arguments carry on?
Neddog wrote:PS, I never once made mention of any laws in Canada or otherwise in the post you responded to.
I think you've argued with somebody else about Canadian firearms laws in the past, and you're confusing me with this person. Nowhere in this thread was there a discussion on firearm laws before you started one yourself and started calling me wrong about it.
Ned Yeung, A.C.E.
cyclopsphoto.ca

User avatar
mantis
* * * * *
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:56 pm
Location: Brantford, Ontario

Re: melee weapons?

Post by mantis » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:30 am

Neddog wrote:
mantis wrote: I'm not sure where you are getting your information from because it's just plain wrong. Whether you can get a CCW permit to carry a firearm in public is irrelevant to a discussion on weapons - you cannot carry ANYTHING - firearm or otherwise - for self-defence at all. There actually is no law that prohibits the non-concealed carry of a firearm (non-restricted) anywhere except to a public meeting. Having said that - carrying one in an inappropriate place such as down a city street will get you nailed for possession of weapons dangerous to the public - peace - the same charge you would get for carrying a large knife of a sword or anything else as a weapon. Also, let's see the proof that most Canadian firearms owners don't have a PAL....there are 2 million of us who do. You are saying most firearms owners don't so lets see some actual evidence that 2 million plus 1 (as a minimum) do not have their PAL/POL.
wtf are you talking about? This "just plain wrong" and "100% absolutely incorrect" information that you keep spouting about was never brought up by anybody but you in the first place. I don't know what you think you're responding to, but it sure as hell wasn't anything I said! :shock: Nothing was ever mentioned about what you just posted, so who are you talking to?

I have to say though... this statement is the funniest of all: "Also, let's see the proof that most Canadian firearms owners don't have a PAL....there are 2 million of us who do. You are saying most firearms owners don't so lets see some actual evidence that 2 million plus 1 (as a minimum) do not have their PAL/POL."

LOL, WTF? Of course Canadian firearm owners have PALs... or they wouldn't be Canadian firearm owners!
If you think I said otherwise, then you're hallucinating. What exactly did you think you were responding to?

What I did say is that most Canadians do not have firearms (and even added the caveat, "in the west"), which is a completely different discussion. And the point made about the CCW permit is that we don't have such an option - just like you said. Argue with yourself much?

Nobody is arguing with you about Canadian law or any of the things you mentioned. So please calm down and stop arguing for the sake of arguing. And also please stop stuffing random words into people's mouths for the sake of arguing with them. That is not appreciated.

Even when replying to your first response to me, I had to add a postscript to clarify that although I'm responding to your points, it was you who brought them up in the first place and these things were not mentioned by me. Now after this post I'm just flabbergasted. How much further will these made-up arguments carry on?
Neddog wrote:PS, I never once made mention of any laws in Canada or otherwise in the post you responded to.
I think you've argued with somebody else about Canadian firearms laws in the past, and you're confusing me with this person. Nowhere in this thread was there a discussion on firearm laws before you started one yourself and started calling me wrong about it.
Actually I misread your poorly worded post where you stated: "Most Canadians don't even have a PAL to obtain a firearm in the first place, at least not in the west. Hell, the majority of locals I know don't even know what a PAL is, nor would they have a reason to ask." You seemed to be inferring that most people obtained their firearms illegally. That statement is also dead wrong - some of the highest levels of firearms ownership in Canada is in the western provinces - in particular the prairies.

In any case, your interpretation of what is allowed (aka the law) in Canada is 100% wrong. You stated that "For a Canadian, you probably don't want to train in firearms for self-defense as most Canadians won't be able to take one anywhere but hunting." That is 100% ass-backwards wrong. You can carry a firearm with you in your vehicle all the time if you want as long as it is non-resricted and unloaded. There are no restrictions on when and where you can transport a non-restricted firearm, however common sense applis. Canadians who own firearms should train to use them for self-defence because that is a perfectly lawful use for them - that does not mean that you can carry them at will - nor can you carry sword or any other item for self-defence. Your advocating of training using "bushcraft tools" for self-defence is just as legally dangerous as carrying a firearm for that purpose.

Now get a grip, recognize the reality of the sitaution and stop spreading misinformation about what is and is not allowed in Canada - you know - the laws that you claim not to be talking about. Tell me, in discussing what is or is not allowed, WTF are you talking about if not the law?
Doc Torr wrote:"Those who live by the sword get shot by those who see them coming a hundred yards away."
roscoe wrote:.....and don't plan on being The Humongous - it ain't happening.

User avatar
Neddog
* * *
Posts: 316
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:45 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: High School of the Dead
Juan de los Muertos
Land of the Dead
Zombieland
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: melee weapons?

Post by Neddog » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:53 am

mantis wrote:Actually I misread your poorly worded post where you stated: "Most Canadians don't even have a PAL to obtain a firearm in the first place, at least not in the west. Hell, the majority of locals I know don't even know what a PAL is, nor would they have a reason to ask." You seemed to be inferring that most people obtained their firearms illegally. That statement is also dead wrong - some of the highest levels of firearms ownership in Canada is in the western provinces - in particular the prairies.

In any case, your interpretation of what is allowed (aka the law) in Canada is 100% wrong. You stated that "For a Canadian, you probably don't want to train in firearms for self-defense as most Canadians won't be able to take one anywhere but hunting." That is 100% ass-backwards wrong. You can carry a firearm with you in your vehicle all the time if you want as long as it is non-resricted and unloaded. There are no restrictions on when and where you can transport a non-restricted firearm, however common sense applis. Canadians who own firearms should train to use them for self-defence because that is a perfectly lawful use for them - that does not mean that you can carry them at will - nor can you carry sword or any other item for self-defence. Your advocating of training using "bushcraft tools" for self-defence is just as legally dangerous as carrying a firearm for that purpose.

Now get a grip, recognize the reality of the sitaution and stop spreading misinformation about what is and is not allowed in Canada - you know - the laws that you claim not to be talking about. Tell me, in discussing what is or is not allowed, WTF are you talking about if not the law?
When did I once ever use the term "not allowed", besides responding directly to the points you raised? YOU are the one who said anything about what is "not allowed". I did not mention anything about the law. I was talking about real-life... that Canadians simply don't walk around in public carrying a gun (nor do we have permits which allow us to do so). How difficult is it for you to understand that?

As I've both politely, indirectly, and directly asked many, many times already... PLEASE STOP STUFFING YOUR WORDS INTO MY MOUTH!

Seriously dude, you have a real chip on your shoulder about something, and I would really appreciate it if you stop using me as your punching bag to air out whatever is upsetting you. What we are talking about in this thread has absolutely nothing to do with whatever issues of "law" are bothering you. We are merely discussing the merits of hand/melee weapons, specifically in the times of the Zombie Apocalypse, which evolved a bit into the topic of weapons training, but never once touched upon legalities or "what's allowed" or any other topic that has you so riled up to take such an offensive stance.

Or perhaps I simply insulted your sensibilities by stating that most Canadians are not firearm owners, because you yourself are one and don't want to look like the "oddball"? If so... GET OVER IT. I do not know a single personal firearm owner in this city, even though I know a number of people with PALs. That's my experience, and that's my knowledge. Take it for what it's worth, but there's no reason to get upset over it.

When I said, "(at least not in the west)", I meant that as far as I know, being a resident of Western Canada, this is how people are. I know you're from the east, so for all I know maybe things are different there. That's why I only want to speak on MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. How the hell did you turn that into me claiming that statistically there are more gun owners in the east than the west? That's some really fucked up word twisting going on there.
mantis wrote:Your advocating of training using "bushcraft tools" for self-defence is just as legally dangerous as carrying a firearm for that purpose.
I seriously do hope you understand that "bushcraft tools" are carried on outings in the bush and not in the city, right? :? In the case of a "bug-out" and a "zombie apocalypse", these are tools which everyone has in their "bug-out bag". Do you realize that we are not talking about everyday situations in this everyday world we live in, governed by everyday law? Can you understand that we are not discussing anything that you are carrying on about?

Nobody is here to argue with you about law and politics, so please lay off.
Last edited by Neddog on Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ned Yeung, A.C.E.
cyclopsphoto.ca

User avatar
mantis
* * * * *
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:56 pm
Location: Brantford, Ontario

Re: melee weapons?

Post by mantis » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:26 pm

for f*cks sakes neddog....I am not putting words into your mouth...I am quoting your posts word for word. You keep making wildly inaccurate statements about what is and is not allowed in Canada. Perhaps you should re-read your own posts to clue yourself into what you actually said. Here is a direct quote in which is 100% incorectly stated that Canadians can only take firearms hunting:
For a Canadian, you probably don't want to train in firearms for self-defense as most Canadians won't be able to take one anywhere but hunting.
Rathern than admitting that you are wrong and clueless as to what you are talking about, you keep digging deeper and going on the defensive. What you really need to do is to get a clue about Canadian fireams laws - you know - the things that determine what we can and cannot do in this country - before you continue to spread misinformation.

It is pointless to argue with a person who will never let facts get in the way of their views. To the intelligent people reading this - neddog is absolutely clueless about fireams and what you can and cannot do with them in Canada.
I seriously do hope you understand that "bushcraft tools" are carried on outings in the bush and not in the city, right? In the case of a "bug-out" and a "zombie apocalypse", these are tools which everyone has in their "bug-out bag". Do you realize that we are not talking about everyday situations in this everyday world we live in, governed by everyday law? Can you understand that we are not discussing anything that you are carrying on about?
Guess what....you can legally carry firearms with you in the bush too. In fact, you can even get an authorization to carry restricted firearm such as a pistol if you are working in an aera with dangerous game such as bears.

What you fail to understand is that there situation in which you will not eventually be held to account for your actions. It's also hilarious that you are advocating Canadians eschew firearms because of legal restirctions on what you can and cannot do with them while claiming that you are referring to situations in which laws no longer apply. Do you even realize that you are jumping all over the place and not making the least bit of sense?

Bottom line melee weapons are for video gamers and mall ninjas. They are as pointless as they are useless in the real world.
Doc Torr wrote:"Those who live by the sword get shot by those who see them coming a hundred yards away."
roscoe wrote:.....and don't plan on being The Humongous - it ain't happening.

swordofthebreeze
* *
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:10 pm
Location: Space

Re: melee weapons?

Post by swordofthebreeze » Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:57 pm

This thread has drifted pretty far off topic, and you all need to relax a bit.

On the topic of melee weapons being useless, explain to me why every modern military and law enforcement agency trains to deal with, and use, non-firearms weapons? If they are useless, why even waste the time? Why are soldiers and police trained to deal with and/or use fighting knifes, batons, riot shields, and grappling?

Firearms are very powerful and effective weapons, and the have overshadowed other weapons quite a bit. But to say they are only toys for those living a fantasy is a bit out there.

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2
Sargent at Arms - ZS051
A new state of preparedness.
jamoni wrote:Zombie Squad, the things you have experience with scare me.
Doc J wrote:...my uncle george could kill a well trained group of taliban with a ruben sandwich and a box of tampons....

Doctorr Fabulous
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 12210
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:06 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Evil Dead, Zombieland, 28 Days/Weeks Later

Re: melee weapons?

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:22 pm

swordofthebreeze wrote:This thread has drifted pretty far off topic, and you all need to relax a bit.

On the topic of melee weapons being useless, explain to me why every modern military and law enforcement agency trains to deal with, and use, non-firearms weapons? If they are useless, why even waste the time? Why are soldiers and police trained to deal with and/or use fighting knifes, batons, riot shields, and grappling?

Firearms are very powerful and effective weapons, and the have overshadowed other weapons quite a bit. But to say they are only toys for those living a fantasy is a bit out there.

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2
Show me a military that seriously trains with melee weapons? We get issued bayonets, which most units specifically avoided having them go outside the wire. Beyond that, most of tw in depth training was focused on using your body, your rifle, or an improvised weapon. Less-than-lethal is sort of a non-starter, since that's a different ballgame from a sword or axe.

By seriously train, I mean for combat use, not for group discipline and physical fitness. Most of the Asian militaries retain some type of martial arts trainign that incorporates martial weapons, but they aren't issued on the field of battle any more than western armies march in formation to cadence and form lines of battle at the adjutant's command.
Opinions subject to change in light of new information.
Image
http://i.imgur.com/wG6ZMjE.jpg

User avatar
mantis
* * * * *
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:56 pm
Location: Brantford, Ontario

Re: melee weapons?

Post by mantis » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:59 pm

swordofthebreeze wrote:This thread has drifted pretty far off topic, and you all need to relax a bit.

On the topic of melee weapons being useless, explain to me why every modern military and law enforcement agency trains to deal with, and use, non-firearms weapons? If they are useless, why even waste the time? Why are soldiers and police trained to deal with and/or use fighting knifes, batons, riot shields, and grappling?

Firearms are very powerful and effective weapons, and the have overshadowed other weapons quite a bit. But to say they are only toys for those living a fantasy is a bit out there.

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2
No military force that I am aware of trains with anything they call "melee weapons". Indeed, knives, batons, riot shields are not typically issued to military forces because trying to use them in a real battle would only get you killed within seconds. Police forces use them because, they are required to use non-deadly force as much as humanly possible. Police officers and soldiers are also more than likely trained to avoid getting into any kind of melee.

From Dictionary.com:
me·lee
1    [mey-ley, mey-ley, mel-ey]
noun
1. a confused hand-to-hand fight or struggle among several people.
2. confusion; turmoil; jumble: the melee of Christmas shopping.

Exactly the type of situation to be avoided.
Last edited by mantis on Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Doc Torr wrote:"Those who live by the sword get shot by those who see them coming a hundred yards away."
roscoe wrote:.....and don't plan on being The Humongous - it ain't happening.

User avatar
mantis
* * * * *
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:56 pm
Location: Brantford, Ontario

Re: melee weapons?

Post by mantis » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:00 pm

Doc Torr wrote:
swordofthebreeze wrote:This thread has drifted pretty far off topic, and you all need to relax a bit.

On the topic of melee weapons being useless, explain to me why every modern military and law enforcement agency trains to deal with, and use, non-firearms weapons? If they are useless, why even waste the time? Why are soldiers and police trained to deal with and/or use fighting knifes, batons, riot shields, and grappling?

Firearms are very powerful and effective weapons, and the have overshadowed other weapons quite a bit. But to say they are only toys for those living a fantasy is a bit out there.

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2
Show me a military that seriously trains with melee weapons? We get issued bayonets, which most units specifically avoided having them go outside the wire. Beyond that, most of tw in depth training was focused on using your body, your rifle, or an improvised weapon. Less-than-lethal is sort of a non-starter, since that's a different ballgame from a sword or axe.

By seriously train, I mean for combat use, not for group discipline and physical fitness. Most of the Asian militaries retain some type of martial arts trainign that incorporates martial weapons, but they aren't issued on the field of battle any more than western armies march in formation to cadence and form lines of battle at the adjutant's command.
EXACTLY! Well put Doc Torr.
Doc Torr wrote:"Those who live by the sword get shot by those who see them coming a hundred yards away."
roscoe wrote:.....and don't plan on being The Humongous - it ain't happening.

User avatar
Jeriah
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 18722
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:12 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Original Night of the Living Dead, Dawn of the Dead 04, and 28 Days Later are my top three, in that order.
Location: Chicago, IL
Contact:

Re: melee weapons?

Post by Jeriah » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:02 pm

Mr_Dove wrote:I'm curious what peoples thoughts are on melee weapons in general. They seem rather impractical in general but what man doesn't like to play with them.
As has been already been well-covered in this thread, ever since the development of the flintlock in the early 1700s (yes, yes, technically the snaphaunce was developed in the very late 1600s, now shut your pie hole), the melee weapon has been relegated to the status of a footnote in the chapter on "personal weapons," which since that time has been virtually synonymous with firearms. This has become more and more true with every subsequent development in small arms technology, while melee weapons have remained more or less the same: either replicas of ancient forms, or modern-day tools adapted to martial use. Therefore, the role of the melee weapon must be understood in terms of those cases in which firearms are a non-option. These can be broadly summarized as follows:
  • You don't own a firearm. ("Why not?" is a fair response.)
    Your firearm is out of ammunition.
    You require a less-lethal solution.
    You require a silent solution and do not have a suppressor.
    Your firearm is inaccessible.
These situations in which a melee weapon might be of use should be first and foremost seen as situations to be rectified. Don't have a firearm? Get one! Worried about running out of ammo? Stock more! Require a silent solution? Invest in suppressors for your firearms! Worried about your firearm being inaccessible? Keep it accessible! And regarding less-lethal solutions, consider pepper spray or a Taser so you don't end up fending off a harmless-but-harassing drunk with a broom handle.

Still, these solutions may leave some gaps. Residents of Illinois cannot lawfully carry concealed, but we can carry knives, walking sticks, and the chains we use to lock up our bikes. Suppressors aren't legal in all states. Some persons can't own firearms at all, either due to a legal status (convicted felon) or resident of a gun-unfriendly nation. And any ammunition supply, whether referring to that carried on your person, or your whole stash, can eventually be depleted. It is for these few, narrow circumstances that melee weapons may come into play.
Will it serve any purpose outside of an end of the world situation?
Do you prefer a pure weapon or something that will have duty as a tool as well?
Due to the non-primary nature of any melee weapon (tertiary assuming the primary is a rifle and the secondary is a pistol), and the interplay of preparedness and recreation (come on, be honest: this isn't JUST prudent planning, it's also a hobby), some kind of pre-apocalyptic role is inevitable. This is broadly going to fall into one of two categories: tools, and toys/decorations. In a bugout bag, I prefer weapons that double as tools: axes, knives, machetes, shovels, etc. At home, I prefer weapons that double as toys/martial arts equipment, and decorations that look bad-ass on the wall. I've recently acquired a number of decent swords, and also have some cool-looking blunt instruments etc.
What are people's favorite melee weapons?
What melee weapons would be considered the best?
For an at-home melee weapon that doubles as a cool decoration that I can also play/practice with, I'm currently enjoying my Italian Longsword. Specifically, this one:

Image

Mine's like the one on the left: sharp, not blunted for sparring, and with a central riser, not a fuller. I bought it used for $100, and am very, very, very happy with my purchase. I have other swords, but this is my favorite. Looks great on the wall, fun to cut stuff with, and having just completed a six week training course with it, I feel at least marginally competent with it. (I am still a baby-baby when compared to true swordsmen, but I've got a few basic moves.)

Windlass Steelcrafts' $35 Qama is also surprisingly good, is easy to use (works like a machete, unlike the Longsword which requires more finesse and technique), cheap as hell, handy in close-in spaces like hallways, and just in general is worth having. (Only drawback, factory edge is blunt so break out the file, then the sharpening stone.)

Image

I'm also strangely fond of my pick handle. Looks like this:

Image
I've been desiring a kukri style machete with a heavier tip or maybe a tomahawk but I'm having trouble justifying it as anything more than a toy.
The Cold Steel khukri machetes are fine for clearing brush, trimming small limbs, etc. You want one, buy one. They're cheap. They work. And it's okay to have toys. Live life, man.

Tomahawks are cool too, although in my experience the throwers and fighters don't tend to be good wood choppers.

This one's a fine thrower for $20; do order the replacement handle because the supplied one breaks easily: http://www.atlantacutlery.com/p-839-com ... ahawk.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It sucks ass for cutting wood (look at it, and if the reasons aren't obvious I'll explain), and it's not really what I'd want in a fight, either. But it's fun to throw, and cheap, so hey, why not?
Image

Redeyes
ZS Donor
ZS Donor
Posts: 1460
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 1:04 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: Night of The Living Dead 1968
Location: Augusta Georgia

Re: melee weapons?

Post by Redeyes » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:34 pm

sworbeyegib wrote: The assumption you make that everyone who owns a sword, or "sword like object" (ugh... budk... I hate them so...) Seeks out some sort of higher training, is amusing to me. I know many people who have done everything from kendo to SCA, but I have known many MANY more, personally and in passing, that are just sword fanboys(or girls), that tout the impressive feats their expensive swords can do, but have little to no formal training with them. I can't imagine that I'm the only one encountering these people.
I agree with you. Even if we are limiting the discussion to well made swords, damn near everyone in the U.S. has access to a quality sword maker via the internet. Far fewer people have access to decent sword training. I live in Augusta GA. The only sword 'training' we have in this city, is how to perform katas or forms to music for judges during karate tournaments.
Image

Team Beards&Irons MilCopp 2013

Browning 35 for ZS President 2016. Make Zombie Squad Great Again!

User avatar
Neddog
* * *
Posts: 316
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:45 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: High School of the Dead
Juan de los Muertos
Land of the Dead
Zombieland
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: melee weapons?

Post by Neddog » Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:00 pm

mantis wrote:for f*cks sakes neddog....I am not putting words into your mouth...I am quoting your posts word for word. You keep making wildly inaccurate statements about what is and is not allowed in Canada. Perhaps you should re-read your own posts to clue yourself into what you actually said. Here is a direct quote in which is 100% incorectly stated that Canadians can only take firearms hunting:
For a Canadian, you probably don't want to train in firearms for self-defense as most Canadians won't be able to take one anywhere but hunting.
Rathern than admitting that you are wrong and clueless as to what you are talking about, you keep digging deeper and going on the defensive. What you really need to do is to get a clue about Canadian fireams laws - you know - the things that determine what we can and cannot do in this country - before you continue to spread misinformation.

It is pointless to argue with a person who will never let facts get in the way of their views. To the intelligent people reading this - neddog is absolutely clueless about fireams and what you can and cannot do with them in Canada.
I seriously do hope you understand that "bushcraft tools" are carried on outings in the bush and not in the city, right? In the case of a "bug-out" and a "zombie apocalypse", these are tools which everyone has in their "bug-out bag". Do you realize that we are not talking about everyday situations in this everyday world we live in, governed by everyday law? Can you understand that we are not discussing anything that you are carrying on about?
Guess what....you can legally carry firearms with you in the bush too. In fact, you can even get an authorization to carry restricted firearm such as a pistol if you are working in an aera with dangerous game such as bears.

What you fail to understand is that there situation in which you will not eventually be held to account for your actions. It's also hilarious that you are advocating Canadians eschew firearms because of legal restirctions on what you can and cannot do with them while claiming that you are referring to situations in which laws no longer apply. Do you even realize that you are jumping all over the place and not making the least bit of sense?

Bottom line melee weapons are for video gamers and mall ninjas. They are as pointless as they are useless in the real world.
Oh my f'cking God... I can't believe I'm still reading this bullshit. Every single time you supposedly "quote word for word exactly what I said" you interject your own meaning which is that something is "illegal" or "not allowed by Canadian law", when THESE STATEMENTS ABOUT LEGALITIES AND WHAT'S ALLOWED BY LAW NEVER CAME OUT OF MY MOUTH, AND DOES NOT EXIST IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM WITHIN THE QUOTES THAT YOU QUOTED OF ME, CLAIMING TO BE EVIDENCE OF WHAT I NEVER SAID!! Then you claim that you're not putting words in my mouth after you keep saying "you claim this and you claim that" then quote something completely irrelevant and different and in no way related to what you're talking about! w...t....f!?

What the hell is wrong with you? Hopefully this forum has a blocking function, I am now going to look for it.

I never once claimed to be knowledgeable or even caring about Canadian firearms law. Why should I? I don't own a firearm. This discussion has nothing to do with firearms laws, or why would I get involved in it? You're the only one arguing with yourself about firearms laws, as I have told you over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again!! When will you get that through your thick skull?

No, I'm not staying out of your crazy self-driven firearms law argument because I'm trying to hide the fact that I'm an ignorant idiot who knows nothing about it. I'm staying out of it because it's not something that I have any interest in! Why can't you get that? If somebody refuses to argue with you about something that only you want to argue about, it doesn't mean that they're wallowing in defeat because you're so much smarter than them. Not everybody is as crazed about gun laws as you. Please try to understand that.

*EDIT: Whew... thank God there is a block function. No actually, thank Zombie Squad. ;)

PS, are there no moderators on this forum? Is the zombie infection already spreading on here?
Last edited by Neddog on Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:27 am, edited 17 times in total.
Ned Yeung, A.C.E.
cyclopsphoto.ca

User avatar
Neddog
* * *
Posts: 316
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:45 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: High School of the Dead
Juan de los Muertos
Land of the Dead
Zombieland
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: melee weapons?

Post by Neddog » Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:09 pm

Redeyes wrote: I agree with you. Even if we are limiting the discussion to well made swords, damn near everyone in the U.S. has access to a quality sword maker via the internet. Far fewer people have access to decent sword training. I live in Augusta GA. The only sword 'training' we have in this city, is how to perform katas or forms to music for judges during karate tournaments.
Yes, this is true. I mean, fact is that this is a world where the sword is simply an archaic piece of history. But there isn't that much martial arts training for other hand weapons either. Maybe the knife would be most practical, but I can find that kind of training about as easy as I can find a sword dojo. By far the easiest martial arts training to receive is open-hand... and as I've stated before, that is probably the most important as well.
Ned Yeung, A.C.E.
cyclopsphoto.ca

User avatar
Jeriah
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 18722
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:12 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Original Night of the Living Dead, Dawn of the Dead 04, and 28 Days Later are my top three, in that order.
Location: Chicago, IL
Contact:

Re: melee weapons?

Post by Jeriah » Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:53 am

Redeyes wrote:
sworbeyegib wrote: The assumption you make that everyone who owns a sword, or "sword like object" (ugh... budk... I hate them so...) Seeks out some sort of higher training, is amusing to me. I know many people who have done everything from kendo to SCA, but I have known many MANY more, personally and in passing, that are just sword fanboys(or girls), that tout the impressive feats their expensive swords can do, but have little to no formal training with them. I can't imagine that I'm the only one encountering these people.
I agree with you. Even if we are limiting the discussion to well made swords, damn near everyone in the U.S. has access to a quality sword maker via the internet. Far fewer people have access to decent sword training. I live in Augusta GA. The only sword 'training' we have in this city, is how to perform katas or forms to music for judges during karate tournaments.
You could call this chick: http://historic-european-martial-arts.m ... a/augusta/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe you could combine forces and find/start something?
Image

Post Reply

Return to “Other Weapons”