AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

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Greg Focker
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Greg Focker » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:03 am

Braxton wrote:What was your plan if the guy upstairs had not been there to call 911?
Plan? We don't need no stinkin' plans!

Seriously though, I was flying seat of the pants through most of this. Had my housemate not been home, it would have been time to release the dog after I initially subdued him and then call 911 and hope they could hear me over the screaming. Maybe whack him a few times with the barrel? I don't know how I would have reacted if I had needed to disengage in order to call 911.


Also, What are your thoughts on giving up control of the AR while he was still fighting?
I thought at the specific moment that I tossed the safed AR towards the couch that I had better be right about his current physical state and my ability to win. That was the biggest fuck up of the night, bringing a gun to a fist-fight and not using it :x :(

Anyways, gonna take a nap now. The physical excitement of the fight has officially screwed up my always precarious sleep schedule.
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by chills1994 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:07 am

how long did it take for the po-po to show up?
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by chills1994 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:18 am

I don't know how Ohio is, but over in Missouri they have "Missouri Casenet" where you can look up people's names to see what kind of trouble they have been in:

https://www.courts.mo.gov/casenet/base/welcome.do" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

that is, if you are that morbidly curious.

Good night! Sleep tight!
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Lambykins » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:20 am

I think the end result was good---bad guy behind bars and you and the pup in good health.

I see no problem in you NOT shooting the miscreant. That would have opened a huge can of worms for you to deal with.
I do think you need to be more attuned to your dogs barking. My dog is older and I have been around her in varied situations and she has very definite barks for different situations.
The "open the door and let me in before I freeze,you idiot" bark.The "we are just romping and playing here" bark.
Then there are her serious barks...."Someone is right outside the fence" bark and "OMG! I am about to rip chunks of meaty goodness out of this person" bark. (I have only heard her give the last bark there about 4 or 5 times...and she did get chucks of meaty goodness on two of those occasions)
Now that you have heard your dogs "Some asshole broke into the house, let me at him!" bark, you should be able to remember it!

My questions:
Are you going to change your home security in any manner after this experience? (alarm, security lights, bars on window, etc.)
Are you going to change the interior security of your house?(Leave dog out of kennel or confine dog to a room with doggie gates when you go out? Put knives in less visually conspicuous place?--the bad guy did not get a knife out of the knife block, but it was openly accessible---I shudder to think of the situation if the guy had grabbed a knife wandering through the kitchen)
Are you going to change your normal manner of entering your home?
Are you going to change the pups training in any manner?
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by jamoni » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:32 am

Yeah, tying someone up is easier said than done. Frankly, the easiest thing with paracord would be to make a bunch of figure 8s around the wrist, then wrap a bunch of turns around the middle of the figure 8, and finish up with a bunch of half hitches. Wouldn't hold Houdini, but for slowing down a crackhead, might be just the thing.
There's also tying the shoelaces together: Both effective and hilarious. :)
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by chills1994 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:34 am

duct tape?
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by duodecima » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:37 am

Greg Focker wrote:
Braxton wrote:What was your plan if the guy upstairs had not been there to call 911?
Plan? We don't need no stinkin' plans!

Seriously though, I was flying seat of the pants through most of this. Had my housemate not been home, it would have been time to release the dog after I initially subdued him and then call 911 and hope they could hear me over the screaming. Maybe whack him a few times with the barrel? I don't know how I would have reacted if I had needed to disengage in order to call 911.
I don't know what you've got for landline/phone - my plan for this would have been my landline cordless phone on speaker - it can be put down and I could still hear the dispatcher, if I yelled they'd probably still hear me. (It can be dropped behind a couch so it can't be hung up easily, as well...) I am not sure if the "speaker" function on some cell phones is clear enough for that to work as well if what you had was a cell phone.

For any after-action, it's always easy to see what could have been done better - but like you said, you didn't have that much time to think about it. Not shooting the guy is pure win. You are responsible for your actions - and only yours, not his in the future.

May you sleep well!
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by URBAN ASSAULT » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:40 am

Good job on not killing the guy. Besides the inevitable legal, social and psychic burden you would no doubt incur, blood can be a real bitch to get out of carpeting.

Glad you made it thru intact.

I'll hoist a cold one tonight in your honor, and send a toast your way.

Cheers.

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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by TCB Firearms » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:02 am

Great sitrep, and have no complaints with you actual situation as it turned out. That being said you asked for commentary so here goes:
My $.02....
- You came out ahead, and no one died. GREAT JOB.
- castle laws are nice, civil trials SUCK, and there is a large chance you would have had one if you shot. Nice thought process in the heat of the moment :D
- You presented and then released control of your weapon, worked out ok but rethink that in the future. When the gun comes out, it is bang time in most cases.
- Restraints----Zip tie cuffs, hell even the fuzzy me and my gal cuffs work and are quick to deploy. They are not as lock steady as TV believes, but are an alternative and quick.
- Fist fight...bad idea 99% of the time. Most people i hope realize you got EXTREMELY lucky size and position were on your side. I HATE physical fighting, I have trained for it, you just never know the ability of the opponent in the street.\
While you AAR and story are a good indicator of how fast an sideways life can get I know I have evaluated and changed some things in my routines based on it...

What will/are you doing different now?

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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by phalanx » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:40 am

Good outcome, glad you're alive.

One thing I was told at the police academy was to never, ever hog tie someone. Not that the OP did, but it's come up a few times. Persons with larger frames will end up with their weight resting on their upper abdomen and can (and have) die as a result of respiratory failure. The perp sounds fairly scrawny and this may not have been an issue for this situation, but it's good to point out because of the civil lawsuit possibilities. I was reminded over and over again about those possibilities....
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by J.C. » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:41 am

I agree you did well with the decisions you made and very much agree with not shooting him, but I think RG is correct that the best decision by far would have been to retreat, even after subduing him though by that time I agree with your reasoning that another perpetrator would be unlikely to have stayed out of the fight so long. The other thing that was questionable are the unsecured weapons ... you mention knives, is the AR stored securely?
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Gingerbread Man » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:55 am

While reading through this again I noticed folks talking about restraints. You need to check your local laws about restraints. They're unlawful for possession by civilians in SC. Likewise, there are some legal issues in SC with using restraints such as cuffs or cordage. There are no issues as far as physically retraining, such as a bear hug or sitting on some one but using a restraining device is a very gray area. I'm not sure on the actual verbiage but it has something to do with unlawful arrest. You can be charged with kidnapping or sued in a civil court for false arrest even if the guy was totally in the wrong such as in this case. Something to do with being a unsworn law officer. I believe you become liable for the well being of restrained person once you put cuffs on them, so basically, you have to pay for any injuries suffered by them and can be sued for it.

All the more reason, in my book, not to engage if there is a possibility of avoidance. It's just not worth any of your stuff to tangle with an unknown element when it's really not necessary.
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by chills1994 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:53 pm

I guess chloroforming the bad guy is out too, huh?

(that was meant as a joke)

In some jurisdictions kicking somebody with (steel toe?) boots on bumps it from simple regular ol' battery to aggravated battery.

Regular Guy wrote:
All the more reason, in my book, not to engage if there is a possibility of avoidance. It's just not worth any of your stuff to tangle with an unknown element when it's really not necessary.
I couldn't agree more. It is better to swallow your pride or your ego and be non-confrontational or non-escalatory (and to have others or yourself think that you are a....hmmn...whimp )....to save yourself some money and to enjoy your freedoms like your Second Amendment rights another day.

I have been there, done that already. And had to fight an X, X "relative" in court as they tried to slap a restraining order on me, which of course would have invoked the Lautenburg Amendment...bad ju-ju all around.

Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you can or should go all Charlie Bronson on the bad guy.

Cooler heads usually prevail.

EDIT: added the whimp comment up above
Last edited by chills1994 on Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Paladin1 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:00 pm

Glad you and your dog are OK!!!

I would not have shot a man on the ground and groggy, you had already subdued him. I think shooting someone as the very last resort because there are no other options and I'm in immediate danger.

I prefer not to engage in hand to hand if possible, I have been in enough fights to know things go wrong very easily. And you never know if they have a knife to deploy while your choking them out.

My dog is not quite 7 months old and loves to chew too, but I decided not to crate for just this reason. His job is to protect, and be the first line of defense, he can't do that confined.
WWSD?

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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by chills1994 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:06 pm

TCB firearms wrote:
...castle laws are nice, civil trials SUCK, and there is a large chance you would have had one if you shot. Nice thought process in the heat of the moment...
Now don't hold me to this, but I think in a few states that have Castle Doctrine and/or Stand Your Ground laws, if there is a justifiable homicide in a self-defense or defense of others type situation and you are let off the hook criminally, you are then exempt from any civil wrongful death lawsuits.
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by DarkAxel » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:44 pm

About restraints: Maybe not a good idea. As Regular Guy said, they may be illegal in your AO, and the act of restraining a person, even a criminal, against their will might lead to a charge of unlawful imprisonment.

The only wrong thing I saw was not that you grabbed your rifle, but that you put the muzzle against the guy's head. Firearms give you stand-off ability.
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Hermit » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:11 pm

Well done. I enjoy reading these things the most - they're real, and a lot of good lessons get addressed. I think it's good that your dog wasn't out and about (since he's still a puppy) - how would you have reacted seeing your dog dead/injured while the guy was sitting on your couch? I would have lost my mind. So I think it's best that your pup was crated. I don't blame you for not leaving, I wouldn't have wanted to leave some drugged up guy in my apartment/condo/home with my dog; pets are family.

You made it through a life threatening situation with as minimal defensive force as possible. Hard to argue the logistics too much if you ask me.
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Jaybow » Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:03 pm

Wow, scary situation...I have a young daughter and wife at home minus the dog so I'm especially wary of shit like this. I do live in a mostly white safe suburban neighborhood and luckily have had no problems at all. Lots of good old boys and deputies in my hood as well. I carry concealed daily and may have ended it with his initial charge. However, you came out unharmed and with clean carpets and walls. Bravo.

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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by SMoAF » Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:38 pm

Greg Focker wrote:Trying him up wasn't a viable option. I don't think my belt would have slipped off easily in the position I was in, and the only "rope" I had easily accessible is paracord, which is a little slick to be betting your life on the knot holding, at least the knots that I know and can tie quickly.
Duct tape is your friend, and you can never have too much of it laying around the house.

I think you did just fine. Good job on obeying the law regarding alcohol and guns. They don't mix.

As for not shooting him: Good call in your situation, as it worked for you that time. I know what my response would have been, but most likely for very different reasons than you had. Physically, I'm at the point that having a single fight go bad for me could result in my being confined to a wheelchair for the rest of my life. That's ignoring the chance that I'd lose the fight and get killed, of course. Consequently, getting into a fistfight is no longer a safe option for me medically.

It sucks being old.

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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Paladin1 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:42 pm

Hermit wrote:Well done. I enjoy reading these things the most - they're real, and a lot of good lessons get addressed. I think it's good that your dog wasn't out and about (since he's still a puppy) - how would you have reacted seeing your dog dead/injured while the guy was sitting on your couch? I would have lost my mind. So I think it's best that your pup was crated. I don't blame you for not leaving, I wouldn't have wanted to leave some drugged up guy in my apartment/condo/home with my dog; pets are family.

You made it through a life threatening situation with as minimal defensive force as possible. Hard to argue the logistics too much if you ask me.
Obviously your cuing off my post and while I respect your decision with your pets, I disagree completely.

1.) His GSD is 9mo old, while still a "puppy" he is probably 70lbs of puppy (GeggF?) And at that age his hormones and instincts are in full on "protect and defend" mode.

If it was a 15lb toy poodle puppy, it would be a different story. :lol:

2.) I love my pets, they are family, but if it ever came down to me, my kids, or the dog, I choose my family. My dog has a job, to protect. If you want a dog to cuddle on your lap that's fine, get that kind of dog. I presumed, (and perhaps wrongly?) that someone who has a GSD is aware of their protective nature and that went into the breed choice equation.

3.) I hate to play "what if", but the fact is (please don't make me post links to prove what is common knowledge based on many interviews with BG's) most bad guys, even those under the influence will avoid a angry dog. "shitbird" may have never been IN the apartment if the dog and been loose and got a hunk of hand as it reached through the broken window to clamber in.

My "puppy" turns 7 months old next week and has already displayed on more than one occasion his protective instincts. Which I expected, and chose the breed for. And for the record, I have had A GSD an am familiar with the breed.
WWSD?

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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by chills1994 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:33 pm

Sounds like the perp was high on something.

Who in their right mind would sit down in a dark apartment on some dude's couch with a dog barking its head off ten feet from him?

I'm not so sure getting bit when he was first trying to come through the window would have deterred him.
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by chills1994 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:36 pm

I have a year old Weim. He's 80 pounds, and STRONG!

And lately has become surprisingly territorial. He's a good watch dog. I'd rather not find out if he is a good guard dog.
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Hermit » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:55 pm

Paladin1 wrote:
Obviously your cuing off my post and while I respect your decision with your pets, I disagree completely.
I didn't read your post.
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Aikibiker » Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:06 pm

Shouldn't have gotten close enough for him to grab your rifle. Staying back enough to have time to react is the trick to holding people at gun point. IF the guy gets up and runs out the door so what, you are not a cop, you don't have handcuffs and backup. As long as he doesn't run towards you everything is cool Of course all this changes if he is running off with a weapon in his hand (this would be a good shoot since you don't know if he will turn and fire at you or use his weapon on someone else later) if instead of running out the door he runs toward a part of the house with other weapons in it (for instance the kitchen where all the knives are kept, or the bedroom where you have other loaded guns stored), or last and most frightening thought of all he jumps up and runs towards th eroom where your sleeping child is in bed or similar innocent life you have responsibility for.

Other then that good job. You communicated with your neighbor to get the cops on their way, you quickly dealt with the attacker, you remembered the very good possiblility that there could be more then one bad guy, and most important despite some mistakes and false starts at the end of the day you are alive and he is in jail. Good job.
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