AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

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AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Greg Focker » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:20 am

To preface this thread, let me just say that adrenaline does funny things to your sense of time. I had some thoughts that typing out took twenty times longer than it did to experience it. I'm writing this as I experienced it, so a long paragraph may have taken only a second to unfold but twenty lines to explain. With that said...

At approx 0400 Dec 26th, I walked into my house via the front door. I live in a duplex, and I'm friendly with the guy who lives in the upstairs portion. I had taken a walk to go to the all-night diner a few blocks from my house and grabbed some take-out. My dog was left in his kennel, as he is just short of 9 months old and loves to chew everything, including furniture. As it is a duplex, we have a "shared" front door and then a "inside" front door, with separate keys for the inside doors. As I was walking up the porch steps, the dog was barking rather loud. I didnt think anything of it at the time, he gets really excited to see me when I get home and he might have heard me whistling on the way up the porch steps. After opening the "shared" front door, I opened the "inside" door. This is when everything went to shit, because immediately after opening the front door I realized two things: a.) my dog was not barking his "Happy to see you" bark, he was barking "When I get close enough, I'm going to fuck you up"; and b.) there was some dude I've never seen before sitting on my couch, which rather obviously was the cause of item "a.)".

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My first reaction was to ask the guy "Who the fuck are you?" He gave me some non-answer, exactly what it was I forget. I bellowed to my upstairs neighbor "Hey Justin, are you missing a buddy?" thinking he was visiting my neighbor and had wandered down from upstairs. Justin heard me through the floor and yelled back "What? No one's here but me". At which point we had a problem. I told him to get out. I told him to get the fuck out. I told him to GET THE FUCK OUT. After the third of my escalating commands, he charged me. I specifically remember him saying, and I quote: "I'm going to fucking kill you."

I had my 3.5" assisted opening pocketknife on my right hip. In my left pocket I had my Surefire with a Malkoff LED (~235 lumens, and the house was dark, I'm sure it would have disoriented/blinded him). To my left the latch to my German Shepherd's kennel, where he was fairly screaming for me to let him at the shitbird (while I heard him barking loudly from 12" to my left, my brain stupidly classed that as "non-relevant" and I hardly even recall hearing it). Did I think to reach for any of those while yelling at him to get out? No. This is one of many *facepalm*'s. I took the intruder's charge and threw him into the entertainment center. I then got position behind him and applied a chokehold while laying on top of him. He struggled for a while until I got the chokehold in good and tight, then went limp after a few seconds. During the struggle at one point I thought he might be about to get free, and I considered using my knife on him. However, I did not then and do not now know what diseases he might have, and since the chokehold is a relatively bloodless way to make him submit, I stuck with it. Winning the battle only to contract AIDS is not winning the war. I was aware enough to realize I was fizzing with adrenaline, and that I could have broken a major bone and not have known it, never mind acquiring a minor cut/scrape. During this portion of the fight I was yelling for my neighbor to call the cops, and heard him saying he was doing so.

Soon after he went limp, I let go of the chokehold and ran towards my bedroom. I was on the lookout for other threats, but I figured the guy didnt have any friends with him, because we were fucking around in the living room long enough that a paraplegic could have gotten into there from anywhere else in the house. I grabbed my AR, quickly cleared my house**, and ended up back out in the living room. I put one boot on his shoulder/neck, and the muzzle against his ear (he was laying on his stomach, with his head to the side). About this time he started to come around, and started to (fuzzily) fight against my boot... and grabbed onto the barrel. I started yelling at him "Stop resisting, I've got a gun". He was still not lucid, but his struggles were getting stronger. I poked his head in the temple (or thereabouts, that's where I aimed for anyways) with the muzzle and repeated my command. He continued struggling, again while getting stronger. Now, a brief aside about my AR. I have a BAD lever on it, and typically store it with a loaded 30 round mag full of 75gr TAP rounds, but with the bolt back and the dust cover closed. I like to dry fire my AR, and Hornady warns people that trying to re-use a previously chambered round will result in a much higher chance of a FTF due to the dimpling of the primer caused by the repeated impacts of the AR's free-floating firing pin. I don't want each dry-fire session to cost me a dollar (aka the price of turning a TAP round into a practice round). So as a compromise of speed/frugality I keep it in the above state. At this I took my finger off the index position, swept the BAD lever on the way to the trigger, and flicked the selector to "fire" while jamming the muzzle into his head and shouting that "I have a gun, stop resisting!" while my finger started to take up slack on the trigger. No effect, he continued to stuggle. Fuck. Legally I believe I would have been in the clear had I shot him at this point*. I had a large potential problem in the court of public opinion for a couple of reasons, one being I would have shot a man while he was on the ground and the other being I'm white and he was black. I have no desire to see the "Reverend" Al Sharpton picketing my house.[/politics] I have no particular desire to shoot a man, for that matter. Some people may think I balked, that I couldn't shoot this guy. In truth, I didnt want to deal with the mess his corpse would have caused, both legally and physically. I was tiptoeing the line between turning his head into a canoe or not when I decided that I could just choke him out again. I safed the rifle, tossed it onto the couch, and threw an elbow into the back of the guys head while I dropped on top of him.

From this point it got somewhat less exciting. I would choke the guy out every time he would struggle with me, then relax while he was napping. We did that at least three times (I wasn't counting, it could have been a lot more) before the cops showed up. It was at this point my housemate was relaying the retarded dispatcher's questions, like "Is anyone hurt?". Bitch, we're STILL FIGHTING. It's a fluid situation. Send the fucking EMS anyways. I swear though, she must have asked a half dozen times before I told him to just say "yes". The cops showed up. I was just choking the guy out once again. The cops asked from outside if the dog was secured (he was definitely "in drive" and vocal about it). I said yes. I also told them I was the homeowner, I was on top of the intruder, and he was newly unconscious. I also mentioned the AR, as a LEO with a heads up is a less jumpy LEO. The cops entered the house, and I told them I would release him when they told me to. They gave me the word, I got up, put my hands above my head and took a couple steps back. The cops cuffed him, rolled the shitbird over, and one of them distastefully poked him with his shoe like he would a piece of roadkill (I admit it, I chuckled). They then gave him a sternum rub. When he came to, Cop #1 asked him if he knew where he was. Cop #2 laughed pretty good at that and said did he look like he knows where he is :lol: . Now, I'm not a doctor, but I'm fairly confident that repeated oxygen delivery issues is not going to help brain function. Speaking of which, during this entire encounter the intruder seemed to be on *something*, though whether it was booze or something stronger I don't know. One of the cops went into the kitchen and saw the glass from my rear window splattered all over the kitchen (aka, how the shitbird made entry).

To wrap it up, the shitbird got arrested, I BS'ed with the officers outside for a few minutes, thanked them, and then my housemate and I put a small dent in a bottle of Knob Creek special reserve. I've got some aches from muscles strained while grappling with the dude, but no visible injuries except for a tinny tiny scratch on my forehead that I didnt notice until today when it was brought to my attention. He's being charged with F2 Burglary. I talked to my buddy on the Cleveland PD and he said he'd expect the guy to also get charged with Aggravated Assault. We'll see. Also, a few of my friends who saw me tonight called me "Wayne Brady" :lol:

I can see at least a half dozen fuck-ups in this clusterfuck, from "not recognizing my dog's agitated barking on my way into the house" to "not letting the dog butt-fuck this shitbird's soul" to "bringing a gun to a fist-fight and not using it"... but overall I've got to admit I'm happy with the results. I walked away with nothing but muscle aches, he destroyed some property but didnt take anything that can't be replaced, he's in jail and I don't have the media circus outside my house that shooting him in the head would have started, and I've got a new "Well, at least this year wasn't as bad as that one time..." baseline for a successful Christmas.


ETA: I posted this to get critiqued as far as what I did and did not do, with the aim to improve going forward. So... let's hear it.



*I believe that it would have been a legal shoot because he attacked me in my house, and he was struggling for the gun (albeit feebly). Could a prosecutor argue that my fetching my gun was time I could have spent retreating? Maybe. I could argue that since I did run to my weapon and then search the house for other bad guys before ending up back in my living room I was still actively engaged in the situation the whole time.

**Due to the floor plan, if you are doing a balls out hasty "clear" of the house it can be done in a handful of seconds. I knew there was not going to be a safe method to clear the house, so I decided speed and explosiveness were the closest things I was going to get to safety and ran through it as quick as possible. I did not take the time to check closets, etc. OTOH, getting focused on the guy in my living room to the exclusion of all else wasn't very safe either...
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by carolinafan » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:44 am

I need to learn how to do a decent chokehold.......

First of all, glad you made it out of that OK. Second, I know first hand too how adrenaline can mess with your mind during a SHTF situation. I had a pothead break in to my house just looking for a place to sleep, and my dog(a little terrier, not a German Shephard lol) started barking all weird too. I had a baseball bat next to my bed, but instead of taking that out of the bedroom I had the fracking dog under my arm!

I think now you will be more attune to the sounds your dog is making. Maybe be quicker about grabbing your cell phone and calling the cops yourself(not sure if you had your phone with you or not)

Also, not sure if you have a concealed carry permit, but if you had a gun on you already you wouldn'tve had to run into the bedroom to get your AR. Granted, that might have meant the guy would've gotten shot as he charged you, but that's neither here nor there. All in all I think you handled yourself pretty well. At least you had the presence of mind to yell at your neighbor to call the police.
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by wee drop o' bush » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:47 am

First of all you successfully defended yourself & your dog!
Kudos for that.

Secondly you successfully used just the right level of force to contain the burglar safely.

I'll leave any major critique to those who know what they're talking about.

I must learn how to apply the chokehold you used. I doubt I'd have been able to in similar circumstances.
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by SwampRat » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:54 am

I couldn't have done any better man. No idea on the legality of the shot. Maybe in a castle doc state, maybe not. I for one have a young dog I almost have trained enough to leave out of her kennel. I'm going to step up that plan immediately. I had a conversation with my father a few months ago, He is a LEO. I have a few big heavy duty zip ties on top of my gun safe, he asked what they where for. I told him they where in case I got in a bad spot like you had and I managed to subdue a shit bag. I'd planned on using them to hog tie the shit bag and wait for the cops to arrive. He did some checking to make sure he was right, and said that the shit bag would then actually have some ground to stand on to charge me with holding him against his will. :roll: Doesn't mean it would go anywhere, but then again it might.

This is a perfect example of why you don't fuck with ZS. We will choke you straight the fuck out.

I see a new thread debate "AK versus AR15 versus choking a bitch"


Glad you and the pooch are ok. I really think this thread needs photos of both your rifle, and your dog. :D
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by engineer1371 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:22 am

Greg Focker wrote:
*I believe that it would have been a legal shoot because he attacked me in my house, and he was struggling for the gun (albeit feebly). Could a prosecutor argue that my fetching my gun was time I could have spent retreating? Maybe. I could argue that since I did run to my weapon and then search the house for other bad guys before ending up back in my living room I was still actively engaged in the situation the whole time.

This as you live in Ohio we have the castle law here. As long as you are able to prove it was forced entry and you feard your life was in danger you are lawfully able to use deadly force. You will not be prosecuted (will have to do the whole grand jury thing for a no bill), but you can still be sued civilly. I am not a lawyer, but I have researched this and asked my father about it since he has been an officer in Ohio for 26 years. I still recommend you look it up in your area (even though the state passed a law that said our gun laws are law of the land) Cleveland may have some crazy ordnance out there that would make your day crappy.

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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Greg Focker » Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:40 am

Regarding the choke hold: wee_drop, I don't think you could apply it effectively. I was easily 30+ pounds heavier than this crackhead. With your size, all joking aside, I don't think you could have made it happen.

I do have a CCW, but I was being a nice little citizen and not carrying after my buddy and I had a shot of single malt scotch before he went home. Ohio's legal limit for intoxication while carrying is anything over 0.00. I would have driven to the restaurant, but I got a new Carhart jacket for Xmas and wanted to try it out.

engineer1371 wrote:This as you live in Ohio we have the castle law here. As long as you are able to prove it was forced entry and you feard your life was in danger you are lawfully able to use deadly force. You will not be prosecuted (will have to do the whole grand jury thing for a no bill), but you can still be sued civilly. I am not a lawyer, but I have researched this and asked my father about it since he has been an officer in Ohio for 26 years. I still recommend you look it up in your area (even though the state passed a law that said our gun laws are law of the land) Cleveland may have some crazy ordnance out there that would make your day crappy.
Yes we have castle doctrine, but that isn't the magic wand some people think it to be. However, if someone breaks into your home and commits a violent misdemeanor and/or a felony, neither they nor their family can sue you civilly. So I'm clear on that. Also, if the city of Cleveland tries to prosecute me for breaking city gun laws, they can go pound salt AND get ready to pay my lawyer fees, as statewide preemption law explicitly says the local government that tries to enforce a local gun law is liable for the defendant's legal fees. :mrgreen:
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by the_alias » Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:04 am

I think you done good - no back seating from me really. You defended yourself, your property and have no court date!

I've more a general question - if you had hog-tied the crackhead whilst he was 'out' would that have been an issue when cops arrived?
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by elricfate » Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:06 am

Hey, glad to hear you're okay.

I have no critiques, it doesn't matter how it went down, to me, you came out of it relatively unharmed. That's a win.

If you need anything, let me know, I'm not that far from Cleveland.
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by chills1994 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:11 am

I gotta wonder...does or did your duplex mate from upstairs hear your dog barking?

He didn't hear the glass breaking?

If it wasn't for the dog's barking, your spidey sense wouldn't have been all tingley, and you could have been easily ambushed and things could have really gone south for you. So the dog definitely deserves some treats.

Was there any motive for the break in? Did he have a pillow case full of your expensive doo-dads or whatever?

Was he just looking for a place to stay warm?

I have heard some weird things about Ohio's gun laws...something about if you are CCW'ing, you also need to have the receipt for the gun on you as like proof of title. But that is just what I heard.

Yeah, be glad you didn't shoot the guy in your home. That would have been a legal and financial mess for you.
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by elricfate » Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:18 am

chills1994 wrote: I have heard some weird things about Ohio's gun laws...something about if you are CCW'ing, you also need to have the receipt for the gun on you as like proof of title. But that is just what I heard.
You misheard. :)
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Greg Focker » Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:21 am

chills1994 wrote:I gotta wonder...does or did your duplex mate from upstairs hear your dog barking?

He didn't hear the glass breaking?

If it wasn't for the dog's barking, your spidey sense wouldn't have been all tingley, and you could have been easily ambushed and things could have really gone south for you. So the dog definitely deserves some treats.

Was there any motive for the break in? Did he have a pillow case full of your expensive doo-dads or whatever?

Was he just looking for a place to stay warm?

I have heard some weird things about Ohio's gun laws...something about if you are CCW'ing, you also need to have the receipt for the gun on you as like proof of title. But that is just what I heard.

Yeah, be glad you didn't shoot the guy in your home. That would have been a legal and financial mess for you.
I asked the housemate about the dog barking. He said he had heard it, but then the dog got quiet. Personally, I have a suspicion that my housemate had a few drinks prior to this and didnt pay attention to the dog barking. Since the glass was broken on the opposite side of the house, if he was playing music when that went down he wouldn't have heard it. At least he was there for me when it got ugly.

I don't think this shit bird was trying to ambush me, he didnt have a weapon and he could have had his pick of the shit in my house. He definitely walked past the knife block without picking up a souvenir, so it wasn't like he didnt have an opportunity. But the dog got two venison steaks... then he got gas. BAD. :gonk:

CCWing in Ohio, you do not need to have a proof of title to the gun. I'm not sure who told you that, but their eyes are probably brown... :lol:
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Browning 35 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:43 am

Greg Focker wrote: Yes we have castle doctrine, but that isn't the magic wand some people think it to be. However, if someone breaks into your home and commits a violent misdemeanor and/or a felony, neither they nor their family can sue you civilly. So I'm clear on that. Also, if the city of Cleveland tries to prosecute me for breaking city gun laws, they can go pound salt AND get ready to pay my lawyer fees, as statewide preemption law explicitly says the local government that tries to enforce a local gun law is liable for the defendant's legal fees. :mrgreen:
Quick question on the Castle Doctrine in Ohio (I honestly don't know if all the States versions are the same).

Would the fact that Ohio has the Castle Doctrine have protected you even though the burglar/crackhead was lying face down on the ground and you were standing over him?

Personally I can understand why you didn't shoot him. Shooting a man who's standing up and trying to kill you is one thing, shooting a groggy man who's lying face down and trying to get up (even though he obviously poses much more of a threat once he gets up) in the back of the head and turning his head into a canoe is another.

To some that could have been viewed as an execution once you already had the upper hand. I don't know if the Castle Doctrine would mean that you'd be under a blanket protection if law enforcement tried to say that you shot him in the back of the head 'After he no longer posed a threat' or not.

With that set of exact circumstances I probably wouldn't have shot him either. I don't know if I would have gotten down on the ground and mixed it up with him again once the initial attack was over (I probably would have kicked him repeatedly in the head since it's easier to stay in a dominant position that way then being on the ground with the guy), but that may boil down to my personal preference of strikes rather than holds.

I guess you could have retreated once the initial attack was over and left the apartment altogether, but I can understand someone not wanting to do that (I probably wouldn't do that either).

All in all I think that you did fine except failing to recognize what type of bark it was.

What else is there? Quit drinking altogether so that you always have your pistol on you? Screw that!
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by hatchtrikk » Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:58 am

I'm glad you made out okay. I've never been in a situation like that, but I think you handled it just fine. Also, it is probably a good thing that you didn't have to off the guy. I'm very glad you were able to hold your own until the police arrived.


Are you sure you didn't know the guy? I ask because you said he was SITTING on your couch without any of your property in a bag or anything like that. Has it been confirmed that he was on something?

Is the dog kennel visible from the window that he entered from?


We have the same law about alcohol and CCW in Texas. That's why I don't drink unless I'm home.
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by jamoni » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:03 am

I think you did good. You could argue that you should have tied him up, but with adrenaline dump, and not being sure he was alone, getting the AR was reasonable.
I think it would have been a bad shoot. Not legally, but civilly, and emotionally. Congratulations on ratcheting down to a lower level of force. That's REALLY hard to do under pressure.Perhaps my only criticism would be that choking carries the danger of brain damage, so it might have been desirable to tie him at some point, just to avoid that. Still, you had boots on the ground, not me, so
I have to trust you did what seemed right at the time. :)
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by chills1994 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:08 am

Greg wrote:
CCWing in Ohio, you do not need to have a proof of title to the gun. I'm not sure who told you that, but their eyes are probably brown...
Like I said, it was what I had heard. But the guy I heard it from went on to say that it wasn't the whole state of Ohio, just maybe like one of the major jurisdictions there. And it wasn't so much a law as it was a procedure for the cops to follow if they encounter a person CCW'ing in that particular major metropolitan area....No receipt = the gun being confiscated.

The same dude who told me this then went on to produce laminated copies of the receipts for his pistols. They were about the size of a credit card. I will probably just send the dude an email to ask him where he got that information from.

Anywhooo....moving on....and back on thread....

normally, if you were to kill somebody in self-defense, and it went to trial and you claimed self-defense that is an affirmative defense which means you have to take the stand and testify (against yourself, possibly?).

With these Castle Doctrine Laws, would you still be required to take the stand?
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by chills1994 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:12 am

I don't suppose the duplex-mate heard any of the verbal exchange you had with this bad guy, especially the part where he said something like, "I'M GONNA FUCKIN' KILL YOU!"
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by oldsoldier » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:14 am

didnt read the responses, but I think you did it perfectly. I agree with you 1000% NOT shooting him-you exercised restraint, and it paid off in SPADES. You defended yourself successfully-and walked out unharmed. I think letting your dog out MAY have confused the situation. Getting the cops there ASAP is the most important thing-and that was done. Honestly, I really dont see a flaw in this-no one was killed, no legal ramifications (I am assuming here of course) for you, and a shitbag goes to jail. You have to replace a few material things-but, hey, everyone went home at the end of the day. You cant really do better than that.
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Braxton » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:23 am

Any time you can walk away from something like this, I call it a win.


Good Choke.
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Actually I think under some circumstances people sometimes don't even know themselves, but that's a bit existential for this thread. :lol:

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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Greg Focker » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:26 am

jamoni wrote:I think you did good. You could argue that you should have tied him up, but with adrenaline dump, and not being sure he was alone, getting the AR was reasonable.
I think it would have been a bad shoot. Not legally, but civilly, and emotionally. Congratulations on ratcheting down to a lower level of force. That's REALLY hard to do under pressure.Perhaps my only criticism would be that choking carries the danger of brain damage, so it might have been desirable to tie him at some point, just to avoid that. Still, you had boots on the ground, not me, so I have to trust you did what seemed right at the time. :)
Trying him up wasn't a viable option. I don't think my belt would have slipped off easily in the position I was in, and the only "rope" I had easily accessible is paracord, which is a little slick to be betting your life on the knot holding, at least the knots that I know and can tie quickly. The only other option I can think of would have been to kick the everloving crap out of his head with the steel toed boots I was wearing, but that's probably going to result in a lot of bleeding, some of which might have even been outside his cranium.



Next time I think I'm going to go old school: "fix bayonets!" :lol: :shock: :mrgreen:
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by chills1994 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:29 am

^^^ exactly what he said.

the only thing that would be lagging in my mind if I was the OP's shoes would be:

A. if I were to find out that this "bad guy" had a mile long rap sheet of assorted crimes and was just a customer of what is our current revolving door legal system

and/or

B. if this "bad guy" were to go on at a future date to kill or rape someone.

but you/we will be playing the "what if" game for a lot of things for the rest of our lives.
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Greg Focker » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:38 am

hatchtrikk wrote:I'm glad you made out okay. I've never been in a situation like that, but I think you handled it just fine. Also, it is probably a good thing that you didn't have to off the guy. I'm very glad you were able to hold your own until the police arrived.


Are you sure you didn't know the guy? I ask because you said he was SITTING on your couch without any of your property in a bag or anything like that. Has it been confirmed that he was on something?
I'm 100% sure I don't know the fucker. I've now got his name, and it rings zero bells for either me or my housemate. My PD buddy said he was probably smoking "wet", which is marijuana mixed with either formaldehyde or PCP, I forget which. Apparently they're known to break into houses and zone out. :?

Is the dog kennel visible from the window that he entered from?
No, but it's sure as hell audible from that window.

chills1994 wrote:the only thing that would be lagging in my mind if I was the OP's shoes would be:

A. if I were to find out that this "bad guy" had a mile long rap sheet of assorted crimes and was just a customer of what is our current revolving door legal system

and/or

B. if this "bad guy" were to go on at a future date to kill or rape someone.

but you/we will be playing the "what if" game for a lot of things for the rest of our lives.
"What ever you do, you'll regret it and wonder 'what if'" - one of my high school teachers, almost certainly drunk, on graduation day.



An aside, for the guys who were at the last MilCopp ZS class outside of Columbus. Do any of you remember the stickers I was passing out at the end of Day 2? Guess who had one on his rifle when this shit went down? :mrgreen:
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Braxton » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:39 am

What was your plan if the guy upstairs had not been there to call 911?

Also, What are your thoughts on giving up control of the AR while he was still fighting?
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Jeriah wrote: you are NEVER completely certain of any other human being: not your parents, not your brother, not your wife, nobody.
Actually I think under some circumstances people sometimes don't even know themselves, but that's a bit existential for this thread. :lol:

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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Czechnology » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:49 am

jamoni wrote:I think it would have been a bad shoot. Not legally, but civilly, and emotionally.

This, a hundred times this. You did absolutely the minimum that was necessary to control the situation and keep you and yours safe. That is the definition of a win in this situation.

I know too many people who are fucked up over killing someone who was murdering their friends with automatic weapons fire in the middle of a sandy shithole, to want to deal with the psychological repercussions of shooting a subdued man in the temple on my livingroom floor with 75 Gangsta.

Also, re: Wet/Boat/etc: it's PCP. Drug users are notoriously bad at discerning bullshit/urban legend from reality (shocker). Nobody "does" formaldehyde. They just think they do, along with LSD in your spinal fluid, the various supposed applications of vitamin c, and pot seeds making you sterile. Bullshit abounds.

The fun part about PCP is that it can do everything from knock you out drooling on the floor for 10 hours, to the stereotypical "I can fly, lets jump out this 30 story window" bit. Even the user has no idea what it's going to do to them each time. I personally think simply using PCP should be some kind of felony reckless endangerment charge, given the complete unpredictability.
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Re: AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

Post by Gingerbread Man » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:50 am

Well done, appropriate force was used however, I think you made some potentially deadly errors. Don't take this as me quarter backing you but just hear me out.

1. You should have exited the house the moment you saw someone was there. Typically folks that break into homes break in with 2-3 people. Even in small apartments it's very easy to hide that extra person. Unless they are actively engaging you, retreat unless you have a very good reason to stand your ground such as retrieving a loved one. This isn't being a coward, it's smart, this could have easily been a gang leader baiting you in by sitting on the couch. While you engage him here comes Tom 'wanna be' with a crow bar to the back of your head from the bathroom. You said it yourself, adrenaline does funny things, couple to those things are tunnel vision, auditory exclusion and target focus. Adrenaline would have made you only see the dood on the couch and not heard the foot steps of someone else.

2. Introducing the AR-15, while this is not a bad thing, standing over him with it is. If this guy had his crack or alcohol rage come on he could have easily gone after your legs or flipped and grabbed the muzzle. Now your either grappling or fighting standing up with a loaded gun off safe while someone is latched onto your muzzle. Doesn't sound like fun to me. If you engage them with a rifle, stay at rifle distances. Say 15 ft or more, you have time to engage or disengage. If you're going to subdue him, have a pistol with a good retention holster. If you have to go hands on, put the gun away. Tossing on the couch was bad, if this guy over powers you he could have grabbed it, who knows, maybe this guy had military experience. That would suck. Doc and Dave drilled having a sling on the rifle, one of the functions of the sling is retention. Also, what happens if his buddy was just outside the whole time and decided an AR without a person attached to it was a good time to enter the melee.

3. After getting you AR, you went back to subdue him, that was a potential deadly error. Many criminals carry knives. If someone pointed a rifle at you and they were in arms distance and you had a knife, what you your response be. Yeah, you upped the scales and he could have felt the need to defend himself.

After the first choke out, you should have retreated, let the cops search and subdue.

Now what you did was full win but I don't think catching this guy is worth your life. A knife in your body is never worth going hands on with a crack head, call the cops and wait out side unless you have a loved one that needs your help in the residence.

I'm really glad this worked out and you're unharmed and this guy is going to jail.
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