Phony Cop Traffic Stop

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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by Kelvar » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:21 pm

AgentBlack wrote: Now for my look at the legal issues, which means nothing... But, False imprisonment is only if you prevent someone from leaving a confined space. That guy was free to walk in any direction, You were only blocking his car.
Please be careful with this sort of advice. He arrived in his car. If you prevent him from leaving by the same means, yeah, I think you've got a potential problem. The fact that he can walk away and leave his automobile is not a reasonable alternative. (I'm not criticizing the OP, just pointing out that often the law is not as literal as you might expect).
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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by Stercutus » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:32 pm

Murder isn't the only way to get killed on a traffic stop. Of 4 of our State Troopers killed, 3 were killed by cars while on traffic stops.
Yep, that is a completely different kind of threat, requiring a different kind of caution. But I can't think of a valid reason for a cop to draw down on you because he is trying to protect himself from traffic.

My point is that the police greatly overplay the whole "most dangerous time" to justify a whole litany of rights violations in different situations. Being a cop IS dangerous work. Any situation could turn problematic quickly. But the danger is often overstated to justify improper actions. This is a cultural systemic problem and not really in the purview of this board. So sorry for the thread derail.

When I was in High School we had a fake cop running around sexually assaulting women in out area. I doubt he was the first pervert around to pull this crap but they made a big deal about it at the time. Strange thing though. They never did catch him. He just kind of disappeared after a couple of years.
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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by Kutter_0311 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:36 am

@ Blacksmith: Are you in Chicago or NYC? Sworn officers have a lot more rights than you might think, provided they use them in the right way. I know certain jurisdictions have a rep for playing fast and loose with constitutional law, but I think this is an institutionalized "us vs. them" mentality not unlike that seen in some occupying armies.

The Supreme Court has largely chosen to back up cops fighting the good fight, provided there was some reasonable justification. On the other hand, should a cop step over the line, his whole career can evaporate, and he can even find himself in prison. Cops "live in a fishbowl" in a way that few others can really understand, but for good reason. I would posit that, if you live in one of those places where it is illegal to record cops on duty, you live in occupied territory.
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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by Stercutus » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:21 am

Currently I am in Iraq. For the police to get fired I am not sure what they have to do wrong, maybe kill someone powerful or connected?

Being in the Army I have lived all over the US and experienced a variety of LEAs. Although I have never lived in the big three (NYC, LA, CHI).
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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by squinty » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:31 pm

I think the point, on a forum about survival, in a thread about surviving personal experiences, is not the legality or appropriateness of a particular course of action by police (and not everything that is legal is appropriate), which we could debate forever as we've all got strong feelings one way or the other. The point is the likelihood of one course of action over another, and it's survivability. So just be aware that if you refuse to pull over right away for a real police officer, you may end up needing to defuse a tense situation when you finally do stop.
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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by epirider » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:25 pm

squinty wrote:The point being it's not a perfectly safe course of action to keep driving if a genuine LEO tries to pull you over. In this nurse's case, she might have pulled over immediately if she'd known why she was being pulled - if she'd been speeding, or knowingly ran a light or something. Since she didn't immediately know why she was getting pulled (tags? taillight? car fit a description?) she decided to be cautious and drive to a safer area before stopping.
A couple of things... As far as this ^, as a former LEO, she did exactly the right thing, AND is was the safe course. I say this because if it was a real officer and she waited till a safe place - then it is a safe place. If the officer was thinking she was being malicious in not pulling over, then he would call for another officer - thus safer. If it was douche-bag rapist bandit, then he has no back up and the last thing he wants is to be in a highly visible place. Officers are VERY aware that people may not know that unmarked cars are not real. This may be different in a marked car, if it is a local official car it is frustrating, but again LEO's are aware of the public's fear of the impersonator. Just my .02

The next thing is I have a friend that was in a local stop and rob convience store, with a mutal acqaintance. A guy comes in, gets a pre-made sandwich and a fountain drink and starts walking out the door. The clerk says to the guy that he needs to pay for it and this douche flashes a badge and says "I'm a cop, whatta ya gonna do about it?" Well...
Friend says to guy "That is pretty cool!" Acquaintace says "Hell ya!" Douche bag says "It goes with the job!" At this point my friend and acquaintance snatch him up and say "That is a pretty cool badge, lets see that... as one is putting REAL hadcuffs on douche bag the other is showing him a REAL badge. They both were off duty just happened to be in the store and ended up BSing. They both were LEO's but at different agencies. The douche-bag got charged with a misdemeanor (can be either felony or misdemeanor in this state depending on how it was used).

It could have ended differently though, in retrospect. This is a town of 50k people and it LITERALLY has 13 different LEO agencies based out of this one town. He could have been a real cop, but he wasn't. Thought I would share that little story with you.
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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by Zombie Joey » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:57 pm

Have you heard about the fake cop that pulled over the real cop?

http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/dpp/news/03 ... r_Real_Cop" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MEMPHIS, Tenn. - A Memphis man who was allegedly pretending to be a member of law enforcement ended up trying to pull over a real police officer. Investigators say the man had a siren, flashing lights, handcuffs and that's not all.

The real officer was undercover.
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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by wguy00 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:33 pm

What about using your cell phone in California? It is illegal to talk on a cell and drive. I see a "cop" behind me that wants to pull me over. I'm not sure it's a cop, so I get on my cell phone and call 911 while I continue to drive to a safe location. Turns out it is a cop making a real stop. Not only am I getting pulled over for whatever I did to get lit up in the first place, but now the cop has watched me commit a second crime and he's ticked from me not pulling over immediately to begin with. Now what? Is it legal to use your cell while driving to call 911 in a situation like this (or, for that matter, any situation that requires you to call 911 while driving)?
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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by ais4122 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:49 pm

Since 9/11, the number of fake cop incidents have increased some 200%. I can't say for sure why. But impersonation of police officer arrests have become fairly common today.
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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by airballrad » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:50 pm

wguy00 wrote:Is it legal to use your cell while driving to call 911 in a situation like this (or, for that matter, any situation that requires you to call 911 while driving)?
Can't say for certain about California, but I would guess that there is an exemption for 911 calls. Using a hand-held cell while driving is illegal in Maryland too, and there is a 911 exemption.

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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by mantis » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:25 pm

airballrad wrote:
wguy00 wrote:Is it legal to use your cell while driving to call 911 in a situation like this (or, for that matter, any situation that requires you to call 911 while driving)?
Can't say for certain about California, but I would guess that there is an exemption for 911 calls. Using a hand-held cell while driving is illegal in Maryland too, and there is a 911 exemption.
It's like that here in Ontario - Using handheld devices while driving is prohibited except for emergency calls (911) on a cell phone.
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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by Sckitzo » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:28 pm

wguy00 wrote:What about using your cell phone in California? It is illegal to talk on a cell and drive. I see a "cop" behind me that wants to pull me over. I'm not sure it's a cop, so I get on my cell phone and call 911 while I continue to drive to a safe location. Turns out it is a cop making a real stop. Not only am I getting pulled over for whatever I did to get lit up in the first place, but now the cop has watched me commit a second crime and he's ticked from me not pulling over immediately to begin with. Now what? Is it legal to use your cell while driving to call 911 in a situation like this (or, for that matter, any situation that requires you to call 911 while driving)?
Or put it on speaker phone and leave it on your lap, doesn't make it quite as obvious to what your doing.

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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by Kutter_0311 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:27 am

mantis wrote:
airballrad wrote:
wguy00 wrote:Is it legal to use your cell while driving to call 911 in a situation like this (or, for that matter, any situation that requires you to call 911 while driving)?
Can't say for certain about California, but I would guess that there is an exemption for 911 calls. Using a hand-held cell while driving is illegal in Maryland too, and there is a 911 exemption.
It's like that here in Ontario - Using handheld devices while driving is prohibited except for emergency calls (911) on a cell phone.
Even without an exemption in the statute, it's almost a ringer for exigent circumstances, as long as you have some reasonable grounds to fear for your safety...
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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by epirider » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:33 pm

Seriously boys and girls, you are overthinking this just a shade. If it is a real cop and you are calling 911 to confirm he is a real cop, he will already know this. Dispatch will advise him / her that you are on the phone with them and are going to a safe place. Unless the cop is a real asshat, you probably wont get any more of a ticket then what you were being pulled over for in the first place. If the cop is an asshat, take the cell phone ticket and be happy you werent raped/killed or other...

If it is a phony cop then he will probably peel off knowing that you are talking to the real cops about a phony one. It may end up (worst case scenerio) you getting an extra ticket but much better then the alternative. If you have any doubt about the validity of the officer or person pulling you over, it is better to be safe then sorry. You can use the old line: It is better to be tried by 12 then carried by 6. It very well could apply to this situation.
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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by BobtheBreaker » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:58 am

wguy00 wrote:...I see a "cop" behind me that wants to pull me over. I'm not sure it's a cop, so I get on my cell phone and call 911 while I continue to drive to a safe location. Turns out it is a cop making a real stop...
http://dmv.ca.gov/cellularphonelaws/ wrote: Q: What if I need to use my telephone during an emergency and I do not have a “hands-free” device?
A: The law allows a driver to use a wireless telephone to make emergency calls to a law enforcement agency, a medical provider, the fire department, or other emergency services agency.
One could consider it the basis of a de minimis defense. The amount of harm you are causing is negligible in light of the amount of harm you could be preventing with your action.
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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by Gaston » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:14 pm

Here's an exception to most of the posts.

I was dating a woman who had a big, mean ex-boyfriend, and he drove what was essentially a standard cop car without the lights and paint job - a big old Plymouth. I drove an old man's type LTD, even though I was a teenager. One night, as I turned into the crooked little road that led to my parents' house, a nondescript Plymouth similar to his started tailgating me and turned on the amber emergency flashers. I figured that it was the ex trying to pull me over to beat my ass, so I gunned it. My car only had a 302 engine, but I knew the road and it was raining, so I had the advantage once I got up to speed. I outran the "bad guy", drove right past my house, and onto a well-lit lot at the store where I worked, and as I stopped they caught up. Threw it in park and got out, preparing to run, when out stepped two state troopers in a bad mood. They asked me why I didn't stop sooner, and I said "because I didn't know you were cops, I thought you were someone trying to pull me over and give me a bad time". "Oh," one of them said, "you were right, we are going to give you a bad time". I had nothing illegal in my care and they could only write me a minor speeding ticket at the point they first glued themselves to my bumper and I sped up - they couldn't catch me to clock me after that.

It turns out that I sometimes hung out at a gas station that they claimed was a distribution point for illegal fireworks, and that's why they followed me. They couldn't give me an explanation of why they used the amber flashers all cars have, instead of blue lights and sirens. I think they just screwed up, but wouldn't admit it.

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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by WY_Not » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:51 pm

And that statement could be flipped around and be just as valid for citizens when confronted by a LEO. Cooperate/comply if you must but always know your rights.
Kutter_0311 wrote:Murder isn't the only way to get killed on a traffic stop. Of 4 of our State Troopers killed, 3 were killed by cars while on traffic stops. While 999 of 1000 traffic stops can be totally boring and non-threatening, that one can end your life in the blink of an eye. It's easy to drop your guard when you do it every day, and it's easy to blow off tactics that would saveyour life. Fortunately, good tactics keep the majority of officers alive despite the potential dangers.
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Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by raymay » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:15 am

So no shit there I was bobbing and weaving through traffic when I got pulled over for doing 95 in a 65 no ticket cop didn't care about the loaded pistol (Sig P250 .40) between the seat and the console he just wanted to yell and lecture me for driving craziness with an army sticker on by back windshield.

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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by Jeriah » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:23 am

raymay wrote:So no shit there I was bobbing and weaving through traffic when I got pulled over for doing 95 in a 65 no ticket cop didn't care about the loaded pistol (Sig P250 .40) between the seat and the console he just wanted to yell and lecture me for driving craziness with an army sticker on by back windshield.
A friend of mine had a cop pull her over because he wanted to know where she got the window kit for her Jeep.
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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by ZombieGranny » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:23 am

...
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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by bcvojak » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:28 am

Lived in Spokane WA ~11 years ago.

Some guy was "pulling over" women, and then robbing and assaulting them. Got so bad that the Spokane PD & SO said "Don't pull over for unmarked vehicles". Eventually they caught him when he tried to pull a real cop over. Which seems to be the way that most of these bozos get caught!
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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by Rev » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:43 am

Out here we know pretty much all of the police. I know them a bit better than most because of all the times I get pulled over. I don't receive more tickets than anyone else I just get pulled over all the time. Dad has the same problem. Apparently long hair and a beard + torn to hell junker = person of interest.

I'm also NOT pulling over for an unmarked car out here, especially on a rural road. You don't get cellphone reception in half the county so I'd be driving a good eight or ten minutes at least before I found a place I'd be comfortable with to see if it was a real cop. If I got charged I'd have to try and make an argument that they cannot expect instant compliance using an unmarked car. I doubt I'd succeed.
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Re: Phony Cop Traffic Stop

Post by Beanhead » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:00 am

Blacksmith wrote:
For drivers, this is all fun and games, but for a cop, this is one of the most dangerous parts of his job. Many officers know someone killed conducting a 'routine' traffic stop. Everyone wants to go home at the end of their shift, so don't be surprised when they say that you're all under arrest, order you out of the vehicle at gunpoint, and arrest you all.
I am not so sure about all that. At least the first art any way.

There are an estimated 80,000,000-120,000,000 traffic stops a year. Of those less than 15 result in a fatality through homicide every year. A cop making a traffic stop is actually much safer than flying (at least for the cop). The odds of a cop being killed in a traffic stop are much along the lines of winning the lottery.

This article examines the topic with quite a bit of valid research:

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/jbs/Criminal%20 ... aulted.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know what a lot of police "believe to be true"; however that does not actually "make it true". So now in the name of "officer safety" it seems "ok" to do whatever is necessary. Weird, paranoid behavior with a valid examination of the facts if you ask me.
Wow, way to take an already shit report, and pervert it even further to suit your agenda.

First, the report uses other reports and "estimates" for an unknown amount of traffic stops that don't result in citations. To it's credit, at least it gives a low/mid/high range of estimates (of which, I noticed that you used the mid range option of 80-120mil per year. Without mentioning the low range.

Second, the report doesn't include Felony traffic stops, and only accounts for routine stops. In other words, it doesn't take into consideration traffic stops where the officers knew there would be danger before the stop.

Third, Blacksmith, you completely glossed over ASSAULTS during traffic stops, which was 1/8200 stops. Assaults range from being spit on to attempted homocide. Being stabbed, shot, run over, bit by dogs, hit with a door, punched all suck too, and is something that will ruin your day and make you grumpy. While this report all to easiIy guesstimated about how many stops occured but were not reported, I saw no estimate in this report about how many assaults officers sustained, were not reported. I guess they left that for a different report, huh?

Fourth, and perhaps the largest error of the report, was that it does not take into account how many police officers are actually conducting those 60-180mil stops per year. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there were approximately 662,000 sworn LEOs in the US in 2008 (not including federal agents). If you use the high estimate provided by the report of 180mil stops, and assume that every sworn officer is conducting traffic stops, then every officer in the US would have to conduct 271 stops per year, *remember* not including felony stops! Since we know that not all officers are conducting traffic stops (for the most part), for instance Chiefs, adminstrative officers such as LT's and Sgt's, investigative officers like detectives and CSI, special units like SWAT, SRT, etc. Then that leaves considerably less people doing traffic stops.

I would suggest a better way to gather a statistic would be to determine how many officers actually conducted traffic stops, and how many of those, sustained an injury during a traffic stop.
I would also suggest a breakdown of the location because it doesn't matter if some guy in rural Idaho does 1000 stops per year and doesn't have shit happen when a guy in NY or LA goes home with sore muscles and a black eye once a month.
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