Security guard issues.

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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by Astrozombie138 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:08 am

Kommander wrote:I once heard a story, and can not verify its authenticity, that a mall guard once took it upon himself to sneak up behind and attempt to disarm someone who was legally carrying a concealed pistol. Said pistol owner, thinking he was under attack, shot and killed the guard. Fun stuff.

ETA: Damn it squinty ya beat me to it.
I really hope that story you heard is not true and only a rumor, because that is a really stupid reason to die.

Thanks for the jab Squinty, but no I am not a "badass motherfucker". Merely a regular mortal who thinks and responds quickly to stupid situations.
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by T-Boon » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:09 am

I'd suggest going down a slightly different route, some have comment on switching to a folder, perhaps something like this is for you?

Image

I EDC one and as I’m not a fan of the "Leatherman Style folder pliers" I find it’s awesome!

And it fits into the Multi tool category, instead of the evil stabby kombat death knife!
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by Nobody » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:26 pm

Kommander wrote:...took it upon himself to sneak up behind and attempt to disarm someone who was ILlegally carrying a UNconcealed pistol.
Carrying concealed is like being pregnant, you either are or you aren't. Once you aren't, you aren't legal.

I was in a coffee shop concealed carrying my Glock 19 when someone I knew came in with a chromed revolver in a front jeans pocket. I took it upon myself to sneak up behind him and take his revolver from him. I used it as a teaching point: Concealing arms minimizes the risk of arming an adversary through complacency.

If I had a knife on my belt, I would conceal it before entering Target. A shooting party I was in went to Big 5 to get more ammo. The clerk compelled us to check our arms. When I observed him fondling my gun to amuse a girl, I un-checked it. I've learned my lesson well. I don't do things that attract attention. I am the gray man... in a suit.
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by squinty » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:47 pm

Nobody wrote:
Kommander wrote:...took it upon himself to sneak up behind and attempt to disarm someone who was ILlegally carrying a UNconcealed pistol.
Carrying concealed is like being pregnant, you either are or you aren't. Once you aren't, you aren't legal.

I was in a coffee shop concealed carrying my Glock 19 when someone I knew came in with a chromed revolver in a front jeans pocket. I took it upon myself to sneak up behind him and take his revolver from him. I used it as a teaching point: Concealing arms minimizes the risk of arming an adversary through complacency.

If I had a knife on my belt, I would conceal it before entering Target. A shooting party I was in went to Big 5 to get more ammo. The clerk compelled us to check our arms. When I observed him fondling my gun to amuse a girl, I un-checked it. I've learned my lesson well. I don't do things that attract attention. I am the gray man... in a suit.
Ugh...
First off, open carry is legal in more places than it isn't in the U.S. If you have a CCW in most places, then it doesn't really matter - well, it matters plenty but the legality is the same - if your gun is effectively concealed or openly visible. So the patron in that (almost certainly an urban legend) security guard story wasn't, in all likelihood, carrying illegally just because the gun was visible. (Texas and Florida restrict open carry, I think Illinois does, as do some city and municipal governments throughout the country, Cali restricts open carry of loaded weapons but by and large open carry is legal.)

Sneaking up behind an armed acquaintance in a public place and trying to disarm him for a 'teaching point' is just criminally, inexcusably stupid and reckless. It takes a loaded firearm out of a holster (or pocket) and puts it up for grabs between two people, creating a hazard for the participants and any bystanders.
Make any argument you want to about the tactical soundness (or lack thereof) of open carry, but the actions you describe yourself performing in your post reflect a very immature and irresponsible attitude towards firearms, and a brutal disregard for you own safety and that of the people around you. The hypocrisy of doing something so glaringly irresponsible under the guise of "teaching" somebody a lesson in responsible gun handling is just...breathtaking. You fail.
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by Astrozombie138 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:34 pm

Completely agreeing with Squinty's above post. Your attempt at disarming that person put your life, his life, and the lives of the bystanders at serious risk. We need intelligent, calm, and rational firearms owners, the exact opposite of what you describe. If you wanted to help this person you should have quietly gained their attention and had a quick conversation away from other folks.

I won't bother to go over the legality of concealed carry v. open carry, because I think Squinty made that fairly obvious.
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by Rev » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:57 pm

Nobody wrote:
Kommander wrote:...took it upon himself to sneak up behind and attempt to disarm someone who was ILlegally carrying a UNconcealed pistol.
Carrying concealed is like being pregnant, you either are or you aren't. Once you aren't, you aren't legal.

I was in a coffee shop concealed carrying my Glock 19 when someone I knew came in with a chromed revolver in a front jeans pocket. I took it upon myself to sneak up behind him and take his revolver from him. I used it as a teaching point: Concealing arms minimizes the risk of arming an adversary through complacency.

If I had a knife on my belt, I would conceal it before entering Target. A shooting party I was in went to Big 5 to get more ammo. The clerk compelled us to check our arms. When I observed him fondling my gun to amuse a girl, I un-checked it. I've learned my lesson well. I don't do things that attract attention. I am the gray man... in a suit.
Open carry is legal pretty much everywhere while taking a legally owned firearm from another person without permission is illegal everywhere.
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by squinty » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:22 pm

Rev wrote:
Nobody wrote:
Kommander wrote:...took it upon himself to sneak up behind and attempt to disarm someone who was ILlegally carrying a UNconcealed pistol.
Carrying concealed is like being pregnant, you either are or you aren't. Once you aren't, you aren't legal.

I was in a coffee shop concealed carrying my Glock 19 when someone I knew came in with a chromed revolver in a front jeans pocket. I took it upon myself to sneak up behind him and take his revolver from him. I used it as a teaching point: Concealing arms minimizes the risk of arming an adversary through complacency.

If I had a knife on my belt, I would conceal it before entering Target. A shooting party I was in went to Big 5 to get more ammo. The clerk compelled us to check our arms. When I observed him fondling my gun to amuse a girl, I un-checked it. I've learned my lesson well. I don't do things that attract attention. I am the gray man... in a suit.
Open carry is legal pretty much everywhere while taking a legally owned firearm from another person without permission is illegal everywhere.
Also not very greyman.
As for dtates like Florida that grant ccw licenses but restrict open carry, I would hope they would recognize the difference between an earnest attempt to hide a firearm that fails because of circumstance (you slip and fall or the wind blows your jacket open) or gets 'made' by an observant person, versus a deliberate attempt to display the firearm openly. No concealment strategy is %100 - there's always a chance your firearm will get noticed.

Though, really, I'd like to see them reform their laws wrt open carry. A gun IMO is no more or less a public hazard, and the carrier no more or less trustworthy with it, whether it's visible or not. (I would recommend retention holsters and training in retention techniques.)
As with guns, so with knives.

Like I said before, it's strange to me that for many years a gun was ok to carry around but a concealed weapon was considered a tool of criminals, but once states began allowing limited concealed carry, and the practice gained acceptance, suddenly the stigma shifted to open carry.
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by Rev » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:29 pm

squinty wrote:Like I said before, it's strange to me that for many years a gun was ok to carry around but a concealed weapon was considered a tool of criminals, but once states began allowing limited concealed carry, and the practice gained acceptance, suddenly the stigma shifted to open carry.
I still need to get my concealed carry license but I've been trying to get a day off that corresponds with a decent instructor instead of having a local bubba teach me. I am however uncomfortable with the idea of concealing a weapon and plan to open carry in my home area where it's not a big deal.

I'm a law abiding citizen. Why should I have to conceal my weapon like a criminal with something to hide?

P.S. I understand why most people conceal and I am in no way saying you are lesser people for it or in anyway like a criminal. This is just a personal feeling and probably antiquated in our modern world.
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by JTNieman » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:33 pm

It took me years to get my CHP (still gotta drop off the paperwork) because open carry is legal.

A CHP gives me a bit more freedom though, as well as a decent edumacation on the laws and what not. It's -hard- to open carry in some situations, depending on clothing.

If I want to open carry... I can't put on a coat! It's easier to have the permit and know I can do whatever the fuck I wanna do.

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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by Rev » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:35 pm

Ohio's current laws on open carry make it a bit impractical.
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by squinty » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:05 pm

Rev wrote:
squinty wrote:Like I said before, it's strange to me that for many years a gun was ok to carry around but a concealed weapon was considered a tool of criminals, but once states began allowing limited concealed carry, and the practice gained acceptance, suddenly the stigma shifted to open carry.
I still need to get my concealed carry license but I've been trying to get a day off that corresponds with a decent instructor instead of having a local bubba teach me. I am however uncomfortable with the idea of concealing a weapon and plan to open carry in my home area where it's not a big deal.

I'm a law abiding citizen. Why should I have to conceal my weapon like a criminal with something to hide?

P.S. I understand why most people conceal and I am in no way saying you are lesser people for it or in anyway like a criminal. This is just a personal feeling and probably antiquated in our modern world.
Well, I think discreet carry is preferable to open carry, and my few experiments in open carry have drawn hilariously awkward attention (I used to live in a university town) and won't be repeated. But I think it it's a personal choice, and find it ludicrous that laws would allow one but not the other. I'm not offended that your personal choice is different from mine.
As for your "antiquated ideas" - yeah that's exactly what I was talking about. Not many years ago, there was no such thing as concealed carry - almost every state had a law against it (Vermont and Alaska being the lone holdouts - very recently Arizona) but few places had any particular law against carrying a weapon, just against concealing it, the idea being that people around you had a right to know you were armed and act accordingly.

When states began allowing special exemptions - permits - for some citizens to conceal weapons, and the public got used to it, suddenly the attitude shifted. Instead of asking "What's he up to that he has to hide his gun-is he a crook?" it became "ZOMG why's he walking around with his gun uncovered! Is he trying to threaten or intimidate me?" What the two questions have in common is hoplophobia, the prejudicial idea that merely having a weapon, or carrying it a certain way, = violent intent.
Guns aren't good or evil whether you show'em or hide'em. Neither are knives.
I find it amusing too that one kind of weapon is considered somehow more dangerous than another. In my state an assisted-opening folder is a perfectly legal pocketknife, but a switchblade or butterfly knife is verboten because of course only the thugs from west side story and other "bad people" would ever carry them...Florida CCW licenses at least allow for the concealed carry of other weapons, whereas in my state, it's ok to carry a gun concealed if you have the permit, but woe to you if you're caught with an asp baton or sheath knife that isn't openly carried. The permit here is "guns only." Why should a NC permit make you trustworthy with a .357 but not a camp knife? Laws are weird.

Going back to the OP, I find it typical - and hilarious - that the guard had to exaggerate the open carrying of a weapon into "waving it around" in order to justify his opposition. I also like the idea that the weapon was somehow less dangerous hidden in a pocket than visible on a belt - I guess people were less likely to freak out over it, but again, the guard was the only person who did have any reaction. I think it was appropriate for the OP to comply politely with the guard's request. In his place I'd have made sure the manager knew I'd be taking my business elsewhere, and why.
I love the way opponents of ccw - or weapons in general - have to conflate carrying with other, less responsible activities. Words like "prancing around" or "strutting" or "flaunting" are used to describe open carriers, in an attempt to deride them or impute motives less respectable than a desire for personal protection.
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by Kommander » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:51 am

Nobody wrote:
Kommander wrote:...took it upon himself to sneak up behind and attempt to disarm someone who was ILlegally carrying a UNconcealed pistol.
Carrying concealed is like being pregnant, you either are or you aren't. Once you aren't, you aren't legal.
I don't know where this happened but where I live he would have been breaking no laws, concealed or unconcealed. Even if the place was posted no carry the security guard acted stupidly and beyond his legal authority. If the guard was that scared he should have just called the police. Otherwise he should have asked the guy to leave, not attempt to disarm him with no warning.
Nobody wrote:I was in a coffee shop concealed carrying my Glock 19 when someone I knew came in with a chromed revolver in a front jeans pocket. I took it upon myself to sneak up behind him and take his revolver from him. I used it as a teaching point: Concealing arms minimizes the risk of arming an adversary through complacency.
I'm sure the people in the coffee shop loved that. So much for your claims of gray man.
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by yale » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:57 am

squinty wrote: (I would recommend retention holsters and training in retention techniques.)
Agreed. My daily carry holster is an Uncle Mikes Pro-3 tripple retention holster. Handgun retention classes are available too if you look around. I've taken a couple of classes and am looking for more. You can never have too much training.
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by Istvan56 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:27 am

Some very good points have been made on all three pages but yeah, some really awful stories were added to the mix.

To summarize:

1) Private property including publicly accessible places such as malls may restrict how you behave while on their premises. This means they can limit your "rights" since they are a private entity and not the gub'ment. You are free to exercise your right to shop elsewhere if you don't like their policies or manners.

2) Policies forbidding certain behaviors such as no CCW, knives, soliciting, horseplay, etc. do not have to be posted in most states. An employee or agent of the property owner informing you of the rule is enough to then enforce the rule. Yes, it can go something like this and be perfectly legal: "You sir offend my fashion sense. Take your business elsewhere immediately!" :lol:

3) Private security officers are agents of the property owner either employed directly (in house security) or by contract. Their authority is the same as that of the owner of the premises. The legal standard in most states is that a property owner or his/her/their agent may use reasonable physical force (not deadly force) to terminate a criminal trespass. In other words, you can be bounced out of a private establishment if you will not leave when asked. However, most private establishments fear litigation so they restrict the force that their agents can use to enforce policy.

4) Most states allow physical force to be used to effect a citizens arrest. Deadly force is authorizied when a person being arrested threatens unlawful deadly force against the private person making the arrest or a third party. (Basically making it a self-defense issue and not simply an arrest.) Shoplifters are commonly arrested this way by loss prevention personnel, basically store security. However, contract security are typically prohibited by their employers or by their contract from using physical force. (Not in every case, that's why you see armed security officers.)

5) Know your local and state laws. Knives are far more regulated than firearms. Knives are seen as more "evil" and therefore not considered good weapons of self-defense. It defies logic but yeah, that's the case. So be careful how you carry your "tool."

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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by Doctor_Zombie » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:45 am

http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/vie ... 26&t=40381" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Security guard today just tried to physically dis-arm me. Grabbed my right arm with his left hand and attempted to grab my pistol grip with his right. Elbow to the face and a back step rear kick/shin scrape to his right knee/shin...turned and hit him with a full body roundhouse punch. Knocked his butt out cold. Because the cops were called I can't give full details until everything is settled but it was at a big box store.

I knew he was there but he never said a word just walked right up and tried it.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by T-Boon » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:15 am

Doctor_Zombie wrote:/Snip
That has got to be the most retarded thing i`ve ever heard of!
goes to show where training to the point of reflex comes in handy.
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by squinty » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:19 am

Doctor_Zombie wrote:http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/vie ... 26&t=40381
Security guard today just tried to physically dis-arm me. Grabbed my right arm with his left hand and attempted to grab my pistol grip with his right. Elbow to the face and a back step rear kick/shin scrape to his right knee/shin...turned and hit him with a full body roundhouse punch. Knocked his butt out cold. Because the cops were called I can't give full details until everything is settled but it was at a big box store.

I knew he was there but he never said a word just walked right up and tried it.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
I think the vast majority of "guard snuck up to disarm me" stories on firearms forums are made up. Anyone call shenanigans on this guy later in the GeorgiaPacking forum?

(note: all of MY stories are the gospel truth, for I am the baddest mofo on the internet.)
Last edited by squinty on Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by the_alias » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:37 am

Subject: Not a sandbox!!!!
Doctor Jest wrote:Just a reminder...

This section of the forum is for posting reports of survival-related personal experiences. It is not a livejournal. This is not the place for topics like

"I'm being audited by the IRS!"

"3rd anniversary of my divorce"

"Almost busted while committing criminal mischief"

and so on.

If you have a lesson to share after coping with an emergency, disaster, or difficult situation, then please post.
Can't see how a security guard asking you to not carry a knife on your belt is an emergency, disaster or difficult situation. :roll:
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by Doctor_Zombie » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:51 am

squinty wrote:
Doctor_Zombie wrote:http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/vie ... 26&t=40381
Security guard today just tried to physically dis-arm me. Grabbed my right arm with his left hand and attempted to grab my pistol grip with his right. Elbow to the face and a back step rear kick/shin scrape to his right knee/shin...turned and hit him with a full body roundhouse punch. Knocked his butt out cold. Because the cops were called I can't give full details until everything is settled but it was at a big box store.

I knew he was there but he never said a word just walked right up and tried it.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
I think the vast majority of "guard snuck up to disarm me" stories on firearms forums are made up. Anyone call shenanigans on this guy later in the GeorgiaPacking forum?

(note: all of MY stories are the gospel truth, for I am the baddest mofo on the internet.)
They did have someone call shenanigans later in the thread, and the regular members vouched for the OP. Sounds like many of them know him personally and had no problem with the story. In fact, they jumped pretty hard on the guy who questioned. Don't know what that's worth....
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by squinty » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:21 pm

the_alias wrote:Subject: Not a sandbox!!!!
Doctor Jest wrote:Just a reminder...

This section of the forum is for posting reports of survival-related personal experiences. It is not a livejournal. This is not the place for topics like

"I'm being audited by the IRS!"

"3rd anniversary of my divorce"

"Almost busted while committing criminal mischief"

and so on.

If you have a lesson to share after coping with an emergency, disaster, or difficult situation, then please post.
Can't see how a security guard asking you to not carry a knife on your belt is an emergency, disaster or difficult situation. :roll:
Might belong somewhere on the forum, though, if not this section. The topic is relevant if only because so many of us tote knives around with our other gear, might as well discuss the social hazards of doing so.
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by squinty » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:24 pm

Doctor_Zombie wrote:
squinty wrote:
Doctor_Zombie wrote:http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/vie ... 26&t=40381
Security guard today just tried to physically dis-arm me. Grabbed my right arm with his left hand and attempted to grab my pistol grip with his right. Elbow to the face and a back step rear kick/shin scrape to his right knee/shin...turned and hit him with a full body roundhouse punch. Knocked his butt out cold. Because the cops were called I can't give full details until everything is settled but it was at a big box store.

I knew he was there but he never said a word just walked right up and tried it.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
I think the vast majority of "guard snuck up to disarm me" stories on firearms forums are made up. Anyone call shenanigans on this guy later in the GeorgiaPacking forum?

(note: all of MY stories are the gospel truth, for I am the baddest mofo on the internet.)
They did have someone call shenanigans later in the thread, and the regular members vouched for the OP. Sounds like many of them know him personally and had no problem with the story. In fact, they jumped pretty hard on the guy who questioned. Don't know what that's worth....

Yeah I remember very similar posts turning up on packing.org back in 2005 or so. Just sayin' I'm skeptical.
George Orwell wrote:Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.

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BobtheBreaker
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by BobtheBreaker » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:04 pm

the_alias wrote:Subject: Not a sandbox!!!!
Doctor Jest wrote:Just a reminder...

This section of the forum is for posting reports of survival-related personal experiences. It is not a livejournal. This is not the place for topics like

"I'm being audited by the IRS!"

"3rd anniversary of my divorce"

"Almost busted while committing criminal mischief"

and so on.

If you have a lesson to share after coping with an emergency, disaster, or difficult situation, then please post.
Can't see how a security guard asking you to not carry a knife on your belt is an emergency, disaster or difficult situation. :roll:
As a Private Security Professional, and a user of this forum, I can describe to you how this is a "teachable moment" for our community, but not as the OP had intended. Its actually been mentioned in this thread a couple times, and as a general topic quite regularly. The experience of Managing Perceptions and your preps.

Short lesson here, 5" fixed blade knife on your belt will draw the attention of Target Security. Which is, in and of itself, a way bad sign because those guys are 90% Loss Prevention. You really gotta try to get their attention away from people who are stealing merch.
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Re: Security guard issues.

Post by mystic_1 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:49 pm

Still not survival-related.

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