Security guard issues.

Share a survival experience with us and explain what you learned from it. You might help someone.

Moderator: ZS Global Moderators

Headhunter441
* *
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:26 pm
Location: Oklahoma.

Security guard issues.

Post by Headhunter441 » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:24 pm

Well, I was at Target today, with my EDC on. Which includes a RAT 5 on my belt, overkill I know, but whatever. I went to look for a new baseball cap, and the Security guard came up, and told me to put my knife away. I'm not brandishing it, it is on it's sheath on my belt, handle under my shirt. I would have got mouthy, but I was in the store with my Mom/Sister. What you you have done here, and don't say you would have smacked him. Please give advice, other than don't bring it into Target.

Transcript;

Him: Hey bud, lemme talk to you.

Me: What's up?

Him: What kind of knife is that?

Me: A RAT, why?

Him: Well, can you please put that away? I haven't got any complaints, but we can't you you waving that around.

Me: *Mumbles obscenities and puts it in pocket.*
When the dead come a knockin' Mosin answers.

User avatar
JTNieman
* * * * *
Posts: 9409
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:22 pm
Location: Greater STL Area

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by JTNieman » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:25 pm

Pretty much what you did... was that a problem?

Headhunter441
* *
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:26 pm
Location: Oklahoma.

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by Headhunter441 » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:27 pm

^ I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.
When the dead come a knockin' Mosin answers.

User avatar
Confucius
* * * * *
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: The last, best place

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by Confucius » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:28 pm

Headhunter441 wrote:Please give advice, other than don't bring it into Target.
I don't know what you are looking for, that's probably the advice you'll get.
Either don't bring it into Target, or take your business elsewhere.

User avatar
JTNieman
* * * * *
Posts: 9409
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:22 pm
Location: Greater STL Area

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by JTNieman » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:29 pm

Headhunter441 wrote:^ I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.
I said I would have done what you did. Was there a problem with what you did?

Headhunter441
* *
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:26 pm
Location: Oklahoma.

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by Headhunter441 » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:31 pm

I said I would have done what you did. Was there a problem with what you did?
I don't see what I did wrong, I just wondered if fellow ZS members felt what I did was wrong, or if he was in the right
When the dead come a knockin' Mosin answers.

User avatar
JTNieman
* * * * *
Posts: 9409
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:22 pm
Location: Greater STL Area

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by JTNieman » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:35 pm

Headhunter441 wrote:
I said I would have done what you did. Was there a problem with what you did?
I don't see what I did wrong, I just wondered if fellow ZS members felt what I did was wrong, or if he was in the right
I was just saying that the situation seems to have gone in the best way it could have, and don't see that there's any issue to discuss about it. I think if you're giving it more than a few seconds of thought, you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

man in black
* * * * *
Posts: 1147
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:56 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: shaun of the dead
return of the living dead
28 days later
28 weeks later
Location: Pa

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by man in black » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:03 pm

be the grey man. the grey man never gets hassled. the grey man never open carries. the grey man wears his knife either in a pocket sheath or in a bag or strapped somewhere out of sight.

this is your new mantra : Be the grey man, I am the Grey man, what would the grey man do?
As we run into the house
The wall of dead surrounds
Tentacles of decay flesh
Tear and pull us down
Doors and windows boarded shut
But the pressure was too much
Zombie I, girl please run away


http://www.tumblr.com/blog/kevincurbstomp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; <- my tumblr

User avatar
Grey Mann
* * *
Posts: 765
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:37 am
Location: FT Hood, TX

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by Grey Mann » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:26 pm

Oklahoma knife laws are vague at best, but from what I surmised:

-Depending on which city you live in, there may be a statute limiting the length of a blade you can conceal (3-6 inches as it varies by my reading) on your person without a concealed weapons permit. So taking into account where you live, the security guard may have just requested you to commit a misdemeanor offense for the comfort of those around you.

-OK knife laws prohibit you from, among other things, carrying daggers, Bowie knives, and other "offensive weapons" unless you are in educational, recreational (hunting/fishing), or re-enactment uses without a CCW/CWP and will result in a misdemeanor charge.

So, depending on the officer's/judge's opinion, you could be guilty of a misdemeanor offense by having that knife in your EDC anyway.

Always check your local laws.
An armed man is a citizen; an unarmed man is a subject.
Image
Do not go gentle.

User avatar
airballrad
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 2838
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:16 am
Location: Sarasota, FL
Contact:

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by airballrad » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:37 pm

Regardless of the local laws, private security on private property can ask you to do just about anything (legal) and you must either comply or leave. Protest and you're now trespassing. Was the guy bored and looking for something to tell his boss he did during his shift? Possibly. Was it overkill for him to talk to you about it? Probably. Would you have been kicked out of the store, maybe banned from it if you had gotten self-righteous about the matter? Most certainly.

You can write a letter to corporate about it if you feel you were mistreated, but I doubt you'll get much more than a form letter apology if anything.

tl;dr: What happened is about the best case scenario.

P.S.: As was said above, gray is good.

spacecop
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 181
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:16 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: Zombieland, Shaun of the Dead.
Location: Slidell Louisiana
Contact:

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by spacecop » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:39 pm

Because Target is private property, they do have the right to make whatever restrictions they like. Once the ask you to comply with a request, if you do not either comply or leave, they can have you arrested for trespassing. At the end of the day remember, you are in their house.

I see where you are going with this. If you are legally carrying a knife and a cop tells you to put it up, do you have a right to say no. That is a different story than a property owner, or his representative, making the request.
Life is hard, it's harder if you're stupid.

User avatar
TacAir
* * * * *
Posts: 8022
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by TacAir » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:52 pm

You have a 5 inch, fixed blade knife as EDC?
Image

Like this? Not that it's any of my business - and it's not, may I respectfully ask why you carry such a large, fixed blade knide as EDC?

May I suggest that if you require that large a knife, you consider a large folder
Image
Gerber makes several and they are all but invisible in a belt pouch or pocket.

As for the security guy - there have been more than a few stories in the news of late of folks pulling out knives and having at it in public.... just say'n.


(EDIT)
Thanks for the post - upon tlaking with Mrs TacAir, we could not agree on what the local law covered. So, I check for most current. State of Alaska has no restriction on blade length or the type.
Anchorage ignores (specificaly) folding blades (quote - other than an ordinary folded pocket knife (blade stored in handle and requires a physical pull to open knife.)), but is silent on blade length.
Fairbanks, nothing over 3.5 inch, no matter that type and in Juneau, no more than 3.0 inch, no matter the type.
Gravity or switchblades are illegal - period - the sole exception I am aware of are switchblades "issued to active duty" (Airborne!) and you must be active as I read that bit. I assume they means one of these:
Image
or
Image

So, thanks!
I have been breaking the law, it would seem, in Fairbanks and Juneau when traveling - will now alter my travel kit.
Last edited by TacAir on Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
TacAir - I'd rather be a disappointed pessimist than a horrified optimist
**All my books ** some with a different view of the "PAW". Check 'em out.
Adventures in rice storage//Mod your Esbit for better stability

User avatar
jamoni
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 14985
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:50 pm
Location: st louis

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by jamoni » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:00 pm

If he'd never seen it, he'd never have spoken to you.
Carry concealed, legally of course.
JoergS wrote:Realistically, I think I can launch a nine pound chain saw at 50 fps from a shoulder mounted rubber powered bazooka...
squinty wrote:I reserve the right to yell "Dookyhole!" - or it's Hebrew equivalent if such a thing exists - whilst dispensing a barrage of palm strikes at my opponent.

User avatar
mystic_1
ZS Chapter Volunteer
ZS Chapter Volunteer
Posts: 4031
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:52 pm

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by mystic_1 » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:46 pm

This looks like a useful resource:

http://knife-expert.com/sta-law.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've been asked by security personnel to leave my EDC knife outside when entering premises such as bars etc, never had too much problem with it so long as they weren't jerkwads about it. After all, as said above, their property = their rules.

That's been pretty rare though, maybe twice ever in 25 years or more.

mystic_1
Image Image Image

ZS Chapter Volunteer
● Want to start a ZS chapter? ● Want to find other ZS members near you? ● Want to make your chapter more successful?
Email us at [url=mailto://chapters@zombiehunters.org]chapters@zombiehunters.org[/url]

See also: ● ZS Event CalendarZS Wiki

wagdhead
* * * *
Posts: 824
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:28 pm
Location: The Old Dominion

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by wagdhead » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:00 pm

"Never meet trouble halfway" John Ray, and imho carrying a large sheath knife around in public is doing just that. Enough people carry folders with a pocket clip that no one get excited about it anymore, so just go that route.

Also good on you for responding in the correct way to the guards polite request.
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.
H. L. Mencken

johndoe
* * *
Posts: 323
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:50 am

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by johndoe » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:15 pm

I agree you handled it right, but I probably couldn't have helped being a smartass and asking if the kitchen knives on Aisle 23 were being put up to avoid offending someone.

User avatar
Hiker72
* *
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:17 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by Hiker72 » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:20 pm

Headhunter441 wrote:Well, I was at Target today, with my EDC on. Which includes a RAT 5 on my belt, overkill I know, but whatever. I went to look for a new baseball cap, and the Security guard came up, and told me to put my knife away. I'm not brandishing it, it is on it's sheath on my belt, handle under my shirt. I would have got mouthy, but I was in the store with my Mom/Sister. What you you have done here, and don't say you would have smacked him. Please give advice, other than don't bring it into Target.

Transcript;

Him: Hey bud, lemme talk to you.

Me: What's up?

Him: What kind of knife is that?

Me: A RAT, why?

Him: Well, can you please put that away? I haven't got any complaints, but we can't you you waving that around.

Me: *Mumbles obscenities and puts it in pocket.*

Well....speaking as a security "guard" myself....

I wouldn't have said anything about waving it around, something more along the line of "Hey man, I haven't heard any complaints, but if you could do me a favor and hide it a little better? Just so it doesn't scare some soccer mom ok?"

So basically I believe he was in the right, but took a "bad" approach.

airballrad wrote:Regardless of the local laws, private security on private property can ask you to do just about anything (legal) and you must either comply or leave. Protest and you're now trespassing.
Pretty much.
There are no secrets to success. It is the result of preparation, hard work, learning from failure. - General Colin L. Powell

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. - Thomas Jefferson

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson

El Bandito
* *
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:01 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Shaun of the Dead, Resident Evil (are those zombies?) Dawn of the Dead (original)
Location: Grand Junction, Co.

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by El Bandito » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:24 pm

Headhunter441 wrote:RAT 5 on my belt, overkill I know*
I think you said it best right there.
Dodge this!

A lie is the refuge of weakness. The man of courage is not afraid of the truth. - J.C. Macaulay

User avatar
donjulio
* * * * *
Posts: 2154
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 11:52 pm
Location: Springfield, MO
Contact:

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by donjulio » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:52 pm

Having spent years doing security work myself, I cant imagine hassling someone over a knife. That is unless you really were waving it around. But you handled the situation as best you could. I agree with switching to a large folder. I just ordered a 4" CRKT m21 that looks perfect as an edc. My brother has carried a gerber gator in the past that would work just as well.
Image

User avatar
TravisM.1
* * * * *
Posts: 5316
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:29 am
Location: Earth, home world of the pizza bagel

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by TravisM.1 » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:56 pm

I probably would have told the guy that I didn't have it "out", it's been in it's sheath the whole time.

Then I probably would have been asked to leave the store.
I sold my soul to the devil for a .45, a black cowboy hat and a switchblade knife.......

User avatar
squinty
* * * * *
Posts: 5753
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:11 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: night of the living dead, shaun of the dead, pre-opening credit scenes from 28 weeks later and dawn of the dead remake

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by squinty » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:24 pm

I'm not sure of the legality of carrying a 5" fixed blade knife in Oklahoma. In some places, the open carrying of such a knife might be legal, but concealed carry of same, not so much. In which case you couldn't legally comply with the guards request to cover it.
As for "waving it around" I might have pointed out to the guard that the knife was sheathed, that it was not being waved around, and that the carrying of a knife was perfectly legal (if it is - what's the law in OK?)

If asked to leave the store, I'd have done so politely and promptly when asked, and bought a baseball hat online.

If it were legal to conceal a 5" fixed blade knife, I would have had it covered by a shirttail or otherwise more discreetly carried in the first place.

I remember not so long ago when concealed weapons were considered dangerous and unacceptable. With the greater acceptance of concealed carry, now it's open carriers who are considered scary and menacing.

I wouldn't choose to EDC that size fixed blade knife, because it would be cumbersome to me and larger than most of my daily cutting tasks demand. But you can carry whatever you want IMO, and a lot of people consider the folder I carry to be excessive or too big.

Here's some Oklahoma knife law info:
http://knife-expert.com/ok.txt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
UNLAWFUL CARRY

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry upon or about his or her person, or in a purse or other container belonging to the person, any pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle whether loaded or unloaded or any dagger, bowie knife, dirk knife, switchblade knife, spring-type knife, sword cane, knife having a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife, blackjack, loaded cane, billy, hand chain, metal knuckles, or any other offensive weapon, whether such weapon be concealed or unconcealed, except this section shall not prohibit:

1. The proper use of guns and knives for hunting, fishing, educational or recreational purposes;
2. The carrying or use of weapons in a manner otherwise permitted by statute or authorized by the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act{seems to only reference concealed handgun licenses}
Same sort of boilerplate as a lot of state knife laws. Pretty sure a DA could call the RAT a "bowie" knife if he/she wanted to, and make it stick. Regardless of the legality, if the management of the store asked you to leave and you refused, I believe you'd be guilty of "armed trespass" - and of being a dick.

Not sure what you could have done differently. Not especially impressed by the guards professionalism or courtesy.
George Orwell wrote:Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.

User avatar
Gingerbread Man
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 10834
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 10:05 am

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by Gingerbread Man » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:57 pm

Crazy, I went to Target tonight and was carrying a Spyderco Endura, a Glock 26 and a Ruger LCP. Walked right into the Toy section, all around the store, and had my two kids with me. All I got was a cash or charge.
Concealed, works every time.
Shrapnel wrote "nobody is trying to be a dick and give out warnings for every little thing" :|
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS1icEssOUM

Tuukka
* *
Posts: 194
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:44 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: 28 Weeks Later
Location: Mass

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by Tuukka » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:04 am

wagdhead wrote:Enough people carry folders with a pocket clip that no one get excited about it anymore, so just go that route.
Quoted for truth. I EDC a Smith and Wesson Bullseye at work. When I'm not working I carry a Smith and Wesson Extreme Ops. Both of which are folders and I've never been approached by someone saying that it was a problem. It's all about discretion and low profile ("gray man" as stated above).
Strike Hard, Strike Fast

1300/92FS/P71

User avatar
Rev
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 2645
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 2:54 am
Location: Huntington, West Virginia

Re: Security guard issues.

Post by Rev » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:43 am

We get people with belt knives that large at my Wal Mart all the time. No one says anything and I honestly think most people don't bother to notice.
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

Zombie Squad Forum Rules: Read Me!
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 44&t=19895

Post Reply

Return to “Survival Experiences”