Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by PistolPete » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:39 pm

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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by Trent » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:02 pm

Vicarious_Lee wrote:
Trent wrote:Wouldn't the EMP make leaving in a vehicle not an easily available option? Also, do the gamma rays irradiate the surrounding area immediately with impact, or do they take some time to spread from the impact zone?
Forget about EMP, it wouldn't do anything.
Why? I'd thought that an EMP was a side-effect of all nuclear blasts. Does it only occur in incredibly high detonations or something?

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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by Rev » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:05 pm

Trent wrote:Why? I'd thought that an EMP was a side-effect of all nuclear blasts. Does it only occur in incredibly high detonations or something?
Most studies are saying it won't kill your car.
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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by Browning 35 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:06 pm

Rev wrote:
Trent wrote:Why? I'd thought that an EMP was a side-effect of all nuclear blasts. Does it only occur in incredibly high detonations or something?
Most studies are saying it won't kill your car.
Most of the various reports and articles that I've read use words and phrases such as "may", "difficult to predict", "could depend on", "might be" and "could possibly".

So the only thing we have to go on is that EMP is a phenomenon that has happened when nuclear weapons have detonated.

In 1962 the United States conducted a high-altitude nuclear test above Johnston Island, 825 miles southwest of Hawaii; detonated 400 kilometers above the island, the resulting nuclear blast knocked out street lights across Hawaii and tripped circuit breakers, triggered burglar alarms, and damaged a telecommunications relay facility on the island of Kauai.

AFAIK testing after this ceased, so no one really knows what it'll do for sure.

Here's the report...
http://www.empcommission.org/docs/empc_exec_rpt.pdf

Also worth reading...

EMP threat should be kept in perspective (*Click*)

So it 'might' effect your car, then again it might not.

Neither side really knows what would happen.
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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by Rev » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:25 pm

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 42&t=92208

I invite us to reread this. It's been awhile and I will be reading it as calls allow.
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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by DarkAxel » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:47 pm

Trent wrote:
Vicarious_Lee wrote:
Trent wrote:Wouldn't the EMP make leaving in a vehicle not an easily available option? Also, do the gamma rays irradiate the surrounding area immediately with impact, or do they take some time to spread from the impact zone?
Forget about EMP, it wouldn't do anything.
Why? I'd thought that an EMP was a side-effect of all nuclear blasts. Does it only occur in incredibly high detonations or something?
EMPs are not a real big problem with surface or near-surface detonations. The air surrounding the explosion ignites from absorbing so much EM radiation, and that gets pushed away from the bomb as the blast wave. That energy barrier shields the surrounding area from the EMP. In essence, the EMP is localized near the detonation site. Nuclear EMPs that we have to worry about occur in low Earth orbit where the air is too thin to flash fry.

LBB, if a 20MT nuke went off in your city, you wouldn't even see the flash. A 2 MT weapon is enough to vaporize most of NYC immediately. The 20MT bombs were made to turn hardened command and control bunkers like Cheyenne Mountain into lakes. They were designed at a time before ground penetrating nukes were invented and missile accuracy was measured in miles instead yards. And to my knowledge, there are no Empty Quivers when it comes to the former Soviet warheads, at least not in any strategic range.

What would I do given the OP? Bug out against the prevailing winds.
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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by Browning 35 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:54 am

The problem comes when the nuke isn't detonated at ground level.

Many ICBM's have multiple independent reentry vehicles (MIRV's) that spread out the damage and burst a few miles up. The ICBM's with a single warhead can (and probably would be) Programmed to detonate a few miles up to maximize damage.
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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by LBB » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:55 am

DarkAxel wrote:
EMPs are not a real big problem with surface or near-surface detonations. The air surrounding the explosion ignites from absorbing so much EM radiation, and that gets pushed away from the bomb as the blast wave. That energy barrier shields the surrounding area from the EMP. In essence, the EMP is localized near the detonation site. Nuclear EMPs that we have to worry about occur in low Earth orbit where the air is too thin to flash fry.

LBB, if a 20MT nuke went off in your city, you wouldn't even see the flash. A 2 MT weapon is enough to vaporize most of NYC immediately. The 20MT bombs were made to turn hardened command and control bunkers like Cheyenne Mountain into lakes. They were designed at a time before ground penetrating nukes were invented and missile accuracy was measured in miles instead yards. And to my knowledge, there are no Empty Quivers when it comes to the former Soviet warheads, at least not in any strategic range.

What would I do given the OP? Bug out against the prevailing winds.
As we really didn't see any testing for or against EMPs but I know that all weapons systems I saw are highly protected against EMPs there must be a problem with any EMP.

Now to the 20MT, I believe I already wrote what the ranges are, and the OP said he isn't in the city but nearby. And yes 20 MT would be the right size to make sure no fleeing person from the city could make it and all underground bunkers will be gone.

You know that they have a couple of submarines in the former Russian fleet that are not accounted for. In case you didn't know, now you know.
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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by Bonecrusher Doc » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:59 pm

Shelter in place for the initial 24 hours. For one thing, that would probably be the time when there would be more strikes. If I experience some headache, nausea, diarrhea that is likely the immediate effects of radiation sickness, so as soon as I feel safe to drive after those 24 hours (during the latent phase) I would find a working vehicle and haul butt to the nearest hospital that I think is not likely to be overwhelmed so they can try to save me with electrolytes, etc. when the delayed symptoms of the radiation occur.
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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:02 pm

LBB wrote:
As we really didn't see any testing for or against EMPs but I know that all weapons systems I saw are highly protected against EMPs there must be a problem with any EMP.
I take issue with this. The military made me pack my gas mask all over the place on three deployments, even though there was absolutely zero NBC threat. Just because the military paid for EM protection from specifically EM weapons, lightning strikes, or other non-nuclear conditions doesn't mean that there's any credible threat of a nuke-based EMP. I'd go so far as to say that jsut because anybody's military or government buys a piece of kit, doesn't mean there's a threat or need for every spec on that sheet.

Back OT: assuming you have survived the initial blast, go ahead and hunker down for a bit. Let the dust settle (literally) becasue once that gamma wave passes, your biggest threat is likely going to be from particulate contamination. At least if you let the majority of the dust/fallout settle, then you can figure out which way to go, and decon becomes less of an immediate issue.
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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by Sins » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:14 pm

Based STRICTLY on the scenario the OP gave. I am getting the elevator to my floor level and hitting emergency stop, taking all the water I can and loading the elevator, shoving a mattress in the elevator, hopping on the elevator, hitting the lowest parking garage level on the elevator, pressing the emergency stop button, barracading the mattress against the elevator door, praying the door and mattress combined keeps out radiation, and hopefully bugging in the elevator for a couple of days.

Thats the best I can come up with, but generally I don't stay in hotels and keep away from cities as much as possible, so I don't see this as being a likely scenario for me personally anyway.

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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by Bahamut » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:19 pm

I was always taught that a nuke had to be detonated in the atmosphere to cause the EMP problem.
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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by DarkAxel » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:23 pm

Bahamut wrote:I was always taught that a nuke had to be detonated in the atmosphere to cause the EMP problem.
Not quite. When a nuke goes off, some energy is released as EM radiation. As I stated above, most of the EM radiation is absorbed by the air, which quite literally explodes from it. There will be some EM radiation that escapes from the detonation, but nowhere near the amount released from a low earth orbit detonation. The EM radiation that escapes can be a game-wrecker or a slight nuisance depending on many factors, like distance from the blast, size and type of nuke, any objects (like mountains, hills, buildings, or changes in overall elevation) between the blast and you, and whatever shielding you have on your gear.
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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by Orion Drive » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:02 am

If it's a surface burst, or otherwise relatively low altitude anything that's effected by an EMP has worse problems. Namely a massive pressure wave and a massive fireball.

But let's assume for the sake of this discussion that you're not killed by the immediate blast. In that case congratulations! All you have to do is survive indoors for the next two weeks. There's four forms of radiation you have to worry about;

Neutrons - These are generated by the initial blast. After the first microsecond you won't need to worry about these guys. And actually it'd pointless to worry about them anyhow since the only defense is distance, those suckers will penetrate pretty much anything.

Gamma Rays - First things first, Stan Lee is full of shit. Turns out gamma radiation won't make you like the Fantastic Four, it's far more likely to make you their demented parodies in the Venture Brothers. So stay away from these. The big issue with gamma radiation is that it takes a least a couple feet of concrete, or several of soil in order to stop it. This of course makes going outside a rather poor decision given that there's nothing you can wear that can save you. Although a suit of lead armor may give you a fantastic work out it won't be enough to stop gamma rays from a nuclear explosion, and you don't need to add lead poisoning to your list of problems. The good news is that like neutrons these tend to go away rather quickly after the detonation. If you've got warning prior to the blast it'd be best to get to a place with as much concrete and soil between you and the outside, for those of us who don't work at Cheyenne Mountain this means getting to a basement. Assuming you're not killed instantly there's still a rather good chance of you dieing later, but at least the rest of the radiation is manageable enough to make survival a possibility.

Beta Rays - As it turns out these can be stopped by approximately three meters of air. The issue is that the fallout is that you'll get stuck with localized sources of beta radiation well within three meters of you should you go outside. This is where bunkering down and waiting those two weeks is helpful if possible. So long as you can do a reasonable job of sealing off your new living quarters and filtering out radioactive dust you stand a very good chance of minimizing your exposure to beta rays. Once you go outside it tends to get a bit trickier, but in the event you're stuck going out it's not entirely hopeless. Your clothes, particularly if they're thick will help block some of the beta rays. Not all of them, but if you've been waiting for the freedom from the established order brought on by the apocalypse to live that nudist life style you've always wanted it certainly wouldn't hurt your odds of survival to put those plans on hold for two weeks. So if you do have to go outside, try to cover yourself up as much as possible. And it wouldn't hurt to wear layers, and possibly wrap some alluminum foil between layers if possible. You won't get complete protection from the beta rays, but you'll make a significant improvement over showing off your new speedo.

Alpha Rays - These guys can be stopped by a sheet of paper, and you know what's thicker than a sheet of paper? Your skin! What could you possibly have to fear from alpha rays you may ask. The answer is a lot, if they happen to get on the other side of your skin. This could be fallout getting in an open wound, alpha rays getting in through those severe burns you may have picked up, or you could breath in or ingest radioactive dust. This is where fallout's a bitch. Breath it in and suddenly you've got alpha radiation doing a real number on your respiratory system. Ingest it and not only is it going to be like chicken wing night at the Al Udeid Air Base chow hall, you're going to get that lovely sensation of radioactive particles getting into your bloodstream. Wondering what that feels like? Kind of like giving blood. You'll just be steadily getting weaker and weaker, and then unlike giving blood (hopefully this hasn't happened to you at your local blood drive), you essentially start falling apart. You'll loose your hair, teeth will fall out, you'll start coughing up or vomiting blood. Just like wing night at the Al Udeid chow hall. These aren't just the symptoms of poor cooking, this is the result of radiation poisoning. Radiation sickness in a nutshell is the result of radiation killing your cells faster than they can regenerate. And while gamma radiation and neutrons may kill a lot of your cells initially, your cells have a chance to recover from those. Your body doesn't get that chance if you've got radioactive particles inside your body providing a consistent source of alpha and beta rays.

So while gamma rays and neutrons get all the attention and do the most initial damage, it turns out that beta and alpha rays are sneaky bastards that kill you from within if you're not careful. The good news is that so long as you keep your wounds wrapped, keep yourself well clothed, and don't breath in too much dust you may just have a fair shot at survival. This is assuming your survive those initial superpower causing rays of course. So if you do find yourself having to leave your hotel prior to the radiation dying down (approximately two weeks) your best bet is to dress in layers, cover as much skin as possible, wrap some foil if possible, and keep a cloth over your nose and mouth. That said, be sure to check the wind direction prior to leaving. If you're going into a location that's downwind your situation had better be dire for you to leave shelter. I'd also suggest trying to move perpendicular to the wind direction. Going towards ground zero probably isn't your best bet, and you're not likely to outwalk the path of the fallout if you keep walking downwind.
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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by Orion Drive » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:18 am

Also, I forgot to mention something. The difference between a surface burst and an aerial burst. If it's a surface burst you have a much greater chance of surviving the initial blast, but the fallout is going to be substantially worse. Opposite goes for an aerial burst, lower probability of initial survival but higher chance of survival later on. Generally speaking aerial bursts are considered preferable since they have a better chance of destroying military facilities, industrial buildings, and other hard target. Inflicting civilian casualties is generally considered a secondary priority, and may be considered a bad thing depending on who's launching. In the event that the weapon is delivered by conventional means such as ICBM, cruise missile, or bomber chance's are it'll be an aerial burst. So if you do survive that you probably won't have as much fallout. Not saying there won't be a lot, but it could be worse. If it's a terrorist plot then chances are it'll be delivered by less conventional means, such as by semi-truck. In this case it'll almost certainly be a ground burst weapon, which is going to make survival trickier in the longer run. Of course if it's a terrorist weapon then there's a good chance that depending on who they buy/steal the weapon from it could be lower yield, or if they get it from North Korea chances are the thing won't completely fissile.

So while I certainly wouldn't suggest watching to see where it detonates if you know it's coming, if you can ascertain the approximate altitude at which it detonated it can help you make a more informed decision on whether or not you want to risk bugging out. If you can see where ground zero was the presence of a large crater should give you a reasonable guess as to whether or not it was a ground burst. Should you be unable to determine where it detonated if you can ascertain who delivered it and/or how that may give you an idea of which type of detonation was likely used.
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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by Herkemer » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:49 pm

Time-Distance-Shielding

Thats what they teach you in nucluuur school.

If you were not injured in the blast itself, Take every care to not ingest particles. I know it sounds dumbass, but don't breathe or swallow particles. Thats your biggest issue. Might not fuck you now, big problem later.
If you are sick after the blast, you're probably fucked. That big a dose usually kills.
Wait until the dust setles, then unass the track, leave. Hopefully there is the "Black Rain" thing that'll keep the dust down. I don't know if thats bullshit or not, But if it's true, you need to go after thats done.
If you can, put an extra set of clothes in a bag, when you are out of the area, shitcan everything, wash, put on the non-contaminated clothes, keep humping out of there.
You need to leave NOW.
Besides contamination, you will be in a city of the blind, glass chunks imbedded in them, broken, burned, busted, people. Haul ass baby. (I know it sounds callus, but if you're less than thirty, you need to leave. Folks pushing 50 like me, got a little more contamination wiggle room. It'll take 20-30 years for me to start shitting blood (from radiation that is). Fuck it, Marlboro's and Coor's will make me dead before then anyway)
The previous poster had it right, the simple breakdown is...
Alpha and Beta- Can't penetrate a piece of paper, just don't eat it or breathe it
Gamma and Neutron, Can penetrate anything, just don't be there when it happens and don't stay there while it is happening. Mostly a minute it happens thing, but, can still be ingested as a permantently emmitting particule.
Time= Limit stay times
Distance= Don't be there
Shielding= Something between you and it
And, don't eat or breathe it, duh....
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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by Bahamut » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:59 pm

Orion Drive, I would like to thank you for that informative and well written explanation. They way you explained it, I could teach my younger siblings and they would actually get it. Not to mention I have updated and corrected my own understanding of the different types of radiation.
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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by tookieblueeyes » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:40 pm

Trent wrote:You're sitting in a hotel room or apartment on the outskirts of the state capital. All of a sudden, a piercing white light fills the room and everything begins to shake. A massive roar of noise fills the air, and you fall to the floor. Looking out a window, you see a mushroom cloud several miles away at the city center. The city has been hit by a nuclear weapon. You do not know if this is an isolated attack or part of a full scale nuclear war, but in either case you're in trouble.

To minimize your exposure to radiation, would it be best to barricade yourself in a deep, central room with no windows; or to immediately focus on getting out of the area?
Well, Experts all seem to agree and urge people to blockade yourself in a sealed off room to reduce the likelihood of being exposed to radioactive material, the fallout, because, after all, the fallout is the worst part of a nuclear attack if you were lucky enough to survive the actual explosion. Fallout is scary! As you can clearly see in the photo I provided, it is not something I would like to mess with. I would rather die in the explosion than be subjected to the fallout and live the rest of my life like this...

Image
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Well... If I were in Washington D.C. when a bomb was dropped and I survived the explosion because I was in a hotel/motel room or apartment on the outskirts of the city then my next question would be... "Is it over?"

Larger governments and countries have numerous nuclear weapons to use against the U.S. whereas smaller terrorist groups may only have 2-5 nuclear bombs that they are capable of deploying, and at this stage... it is a big unknown, to me, in my room, as to who would be responsible for this attack. The only thing that i can be sure of, at this point, is that the bomb was strategically dropped on Washington D.C. for the soul purpose of dispatching with our nations President and crippling our government, whether or not this succeeded is another unknown.

It is possible, but highly unlikely, that another bomb will be dropped on the nations capitol, but other bombs could have been dropped on strategic locations around America. New York City, L.A., Miami, Norad, the possibilities are limitless depending on how many nuclear weapons were available to the group launching the attack and their ideas of where it would hurt us the most to drop these bombs. But at this point, in my little hotel/motel apartment room, I have no idea what is going on in the outside world and how far our attackers are willing to take their war on America.

Personally... I will opt for waiting out the fallout in a small windowless room for the next few days and hope that ground troops from our attacker are not dispatched to flood the D.C. area to look for and kill our President if he survived and other top members of our government. After the wait is over and I feel that the fallout has safely passed over, blown in another direction by the winds, or has settled... I am grabbing what gear would be useful to me, dressing appropriately and closing off the cuffs of my jeans and sleeves of my shirt with duct tape to prevent any left over fallout from coming into contact with soft tissue, and getting the hell out of town, staying away from highways and interstates and keeping to back roads, alleys, byways and 2 track roads winding through the countryside. Washington D.C. is no longer safe after the bomb goes off, not from our attackers, not from rioters, looters, thieves and degenerates of all types. Before leaving, I would try and get some news from the outside world that will give me information about where other bombs may have been dropped, is there a ground war on our own soil, and where the majority of pandemonium is centered. I will need to know what is going on before planning my escape... after the fallout.

***** I notice that there are some people who are saying things like: "I'm grabbing my respirator" or "I'm grabbing my BOB". That would be a dream come true in the scenario provided here but the problem I have with these answers is: "Are you all really bringing your Bug Out Bags and Respirators with you on your business trips or vacations?" First of all, that is a little far fetched in my case. If I knew that we were going to be attacked, then sure, I would have my BOB glued to my back everywhere I went outside of my home in Colorado, but that is not how the question was asked. The sense I got from the What Would You Do? scenario presented here was that it was a surprise attack on our nations capitol. That being said... I would not be with my BOB or a respirator handy, so that is how I answered the question. So am I the only person who doesn't check or carry on my BOB at the airport every time I travel outside my state? ******
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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by LBB » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:15 pm

But to answer what I would do, I would get to my vehicle and get my respirator out.
Put on a jacket, long pants and boots. And in case my vehicle still works, I would drive as far as possible away from the explosion. If I am in the wind path, I would drive 45 degrees to the wind direction and the explosion, to get distance between ground zero and it's wind stream at the same time.

If my place is in a similar direction great, if not, I will check on the map I carry with me what great location I could get to before I run on empty.

If this isn't possible as my vehicle doesn't start, I would get myself a different kind of vehicle and try the same.

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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by mariposa » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:56 pm

PistolPete wrote:
LBB wrote: In Texas, yes, who really cares about Obamatown right now?
Can it, you know better.
Thank you, from someone who lives in Texas.

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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by Griffworks » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:44 am

DarkAxel wrote: >SNIPPERINO!<

What would I do given the OP? Bug out against the prevailing winds.
^This!^

Presuming I'm in a hotel room outside of my home town and not at home, anyhow. If I'm at home, it'll take me a lil' longer, but

If the windows are intact and I'm capable of seeing, then I'm far enough to not be in immediate danger. Grab my stuff and GTFOOD! I'd immediately try COMMS and get in touch w/Wife, let her know I was heading home as quick as I could or - if I were too far away to relatively quickly get home - to head to our BOL.

When leaving the hotel, head opposite of the winds, even if that means I have to circumvent the city and/or go out of my way by a hundred or so miles. Preferrably on wheels, as the Heel Toe Express ain't all it's cracked up to be, lemmetellya.
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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by Vicarious_Lee » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:32 pm

I'm almost certain one of those disfigured pictures is a Thalidomide baby, drawing into question the validity of all the others.
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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by Browning 35 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:17 pm

Vicarious_Lee wrote:I'm almost certain one of those disfigured pictures is a Thalidomide baby, drawing into question the validity of all the others.
I'm not familiar with that particular disorder, but is it caused in part by the mother being exposed to excessive amounts of radiation?

Or is it compete bullshit and it has nothing at all to do with that whatsoever?

Edit : Nevermind. Looked it up, it's a drug some women took in the late 50's and early 60's to try to combat morning sickness that was linked to severe birth defects. Doesn't have anything to do with radiation that I can tell from reading a short article on it.
Last edited by Browning 35 on Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

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Re: Outskirts of Nuclear Strike- Flee or Stay?

Post by Gingerbread Man » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:23 pm

To respond to Tookieblueeyes,
The point of a GHB or a BOB is to have it near by at all times. If you go on a business trip or a vacation without it then you've killed the whole point of the bag.

Yes, mine goes with me to work, vacations, to the park, business trips, etc. It's why I have it, to get home, to survive disasters, etc.

Thanks for allowing me to clarify.
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