A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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MacAttack
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by MacAttack » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:09 am

I have heard that there were a few undercover cops inside the building at the time. There to watch in case of gang activity.


What ever happened to them? What did they do?

Its not like they couldn't tell what theater the activity was in. What with everyone running out and screaming.



They were mentioned in the news, then promptly never mentioned again. Not even in a "sorry but that wasn't true" statement.


Learning what the police or security personnel on the seen did might give us a better idea if what we could have done.

Now the dealer that sold him the vest is claiming it was nothing more than a tach vest with attachments and pouches. Not armor.

Are you legally allowed to carry inside that theater? Here in Ohio if the owner posts a no guns sign then no you are not allowed and can be prosecuted by the state. It used to be that you could only be taken to civil court by the owners but anti gunners slipped the state prosecution line in last year. Don't know about there.
I would not have been carrying if it was here.


Just thought of this one.
While all of you who would have shot back are doing the best you can. What about all the panicking people right next to you? One of them might think your another shooter and decide he will play hero and take you down.
Or what if they just don't notice you have a gun and keep pushing you out of the way or just bumping into you? All of your good intentions could be for naught.

Honestly I don't know if I would play hero, and as some have said here,' at least stand up and play bullet catcher to save someone else'.
Its not my lifes long ambition to die a hero. Mine is to die very old and in dept, shot by the jealous husband of the 21 year old supermodel I got pregnant.
I honestly just don't know enough about the situation to say if I would take a shot or not. I would hope I would if given the chance.

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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by Tater Raider » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:46 am

I'm a law-abiding citizen. The theater has a "no gun" policy. I wouldn't have been shooting at the perp.

Iowa policy on private property and no guns allowed: You will be asked to leave. If you do not leave then you are committing a class D felony (I think, but I could be wrong). Federal Gun Free Zones are covered by Federal Law.

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Re: Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by Sins » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:48 am

RickOShea wrote: "Back-in-the-day", the LEOs would just walk right up to your window and start talking to you during "routine traffic stops". But for as long as I've been driving, they stop at the back corner of the vehicle, place their hand on their holstered duty pistol, and start giving you instructions to get your DL and proof-of-insurance out and in your hands where they can see them, before they approach the window.
I think I live in Mayberry, because they still approach my window. Usually with one hand holding the clipboard and the other holding a pen.
Anyway, in an attempt to get this thread off the tracks of LEO vs Civilian (who is better), and back on a WWYD, let me state my opinion.

How I would respond depend largely on where I was located. Using the recent Colorado shooting as an example.
Image
I think I would head for the middle area where it is more open and then take a shot at the shooter. Sure I know your thinking open area equals little cover, but honestly it looks like this guy was just randomly shooting wherever. What cover do theater seats give against an AR 15 anyway, and open area = less chance of friendly fire.
I figure the shooter's vision was probably just as limited as everyone else's with his mask on, and moving to the middle open area might help me get a cleaner shot. Just IMHO.

Now if we are talking stadium size..
If I am not in imminent danger and not close to the shooter, I am putting as much distance between me and the shooter as possible.

Really though, I don't think there is a definitive answer. There are so many variables.
Location
Motives of bad guy
Crowd size
Visibility
Weapons

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Re: Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by Tater Raider » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:16 am

Sins wrote:Really though, I don't think there is a definitive answer. There are so many variables.
Location
Motives of bad guy
Crowd size
Visibility
Weapons
FTFY

The motives of the bad guy will not affect my actions. His actions will affect them. There is no way to know his movites.

Thanks for the theatre seating chart. I'd have no cover as I like to sit back section, middle seats. My thoughts are do something, anything for my kids to get out - try to tackle, or at least distract, the gunman.

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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by chills1994 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:57 am

Blacksmith wrote:Geez, now we are doing Aurora instead of Columbine? I hate being right all the time. Changed location which was pretty significant. I am out, I refuse to chase goal posts.

However:

I can't believe I have to explain why police shootings are different than civilian shootings. There are a whole host of reasons:

- Police chase bad guys, bad guys run away, CHL can not shoot may break contact, police will pursue
- Police get called out to deal with bad guys
- Police deal with more drugged out bad guys than civilian shooters
- Police see way more bad guys than nearly all civilian shooters
- Police want to go home at the end of the day
- Police want to make extra sure they go home at the end of the day
- Police know what happens when they don't make sure they go home at the end of the day
- Police make sure they go home at the end of the day
- Police stay until the fight is over and don't run away
- Police can continue to fight longer (vest)
- Police carry more ammo than most civilian CHLs
- Police carry long guns too, often ARs these days
- Police often don't have the benefit of surprise
- Police will keep fighting and win the fight when the CHL might already be dead and stopped shooting

That is just a primer. Give it some thought. Worlds of difference.
Let me see if I can put this into words succinctly enough....

all cop involved incidents especially shootings are highly documented and usually publicized events....that is to say that 100% of LE shooting incidents are recorded.

on the other hand, plain ol' "civilian" vs. "civilian" gun encounters are not going to be reported anywhere close to 100% of the time.

a "civilian" might be satisfied with just pointing at his still concealed carry piece on his hip, and the bad guy runs away...

or a "civilian" might have to draw and point at the bad guy, and the bad guy runs away....
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Re: Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by chills1994 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:15 am

Sins wrote: Image
I have a beef with that witness statement by Chris Ramos saying that the gunman was seen by the exit door momentarily, left and then came back.

Granted, the media has eff'ed about any and everything factual about this incident (remember they first said it was an AK? and a Tea Party member?), but I could swear the way the media first reported it was that some kinda sorta normal looking guy was sitting close to him, had a cell phone call, got up out of his seat, went out the emergency exit, and then the gunman Holmes came back decked out in his "costume" and guns.

Some other reports elsewhere said that the cell phone guy went out the door and then motioned to somebody outside.

Maybe guys with dyed orange hair are that prevalent in Aurora... I dunno... but I think if I was Chris Ramos I would remember if the cell phone guy had dyed orange hair, or NOT.

I'm with Jorel in his description of this being a Kobe-ashi Ma-rue type situation....yep, a shit sandwich for sure....

as far as getting back to the OP.

If scenario A and here in Illinois, the land with no CCW, my diversionary tactic would be to shit my pants, and hope that the bad guy slips in my trail.

Scenario B would never happen to me because I absolutely HATE! professional/college sports.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by jor-el » Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:17 pm

MY thanks to Sins for the schematic of the theater. Seat total is closer to 300 than 500. 25 yards seems to be the MAX range. The adversary's tactic of shooting straight down the rows negates any use of theater seats for cover. If the adversary stays by the exit door he came in from, he cuts off 1/2 the exits, forcing escaping bystanders out the one exit door.

To my view, this changes things slightly. With most of the bystanders crowding the left side, the adversary is clearing a field on the right. That works both ways.

So far, no one's brought up the one thing that might tip the scales. It's part of my EDC.

Image
And one of these.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alpha-G10-led-b ... 5647e97cb8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

About 400 lumens shined in anyone's eyes and they will be dazzled, especially in the dark.

Yeah, I already said family first. Best option for me would be to distract/engage from the rear area of the theater. A second's flash in his direction to get his attention, maybe a shot. I figure him looking for me means he's not looking at the exit door. Use an FBI hold and gamble he goes for the light and not my muzzle flash. I get him to close with me, that opens the second exit door, giving more people an opening to run.

Worst thing, I still get hit, but my family's out the door. He'll still have to waste time to confirm I'm out of action. Best thing, I nail him in the face ( a gas mask is not armor) and chest. He keeps moving, I keep shooting. I get the last laugh on the Joker.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by Czechnology » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:11 pm

Tater Raider wrote:I'm a law-abiding citizen. The theater has a "no gun" policy. I wouldn't have been shooting at the perp.

Iowa policy on private property and no guns allowed: You will be asked to leave. If you do not leave then you are committing a class D felony (I think, but I could be wrong). Federal Gun Free Zones are covered by Federal Law.
You're confusing Trespassing with the No Gun policy having the force of law. You're only committing a Class D Felony if you refuse to leave after they ask you to (for ANY reason). The same law applies to your property. It has nothing to do with firearms specifically.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by Tater Raider » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:23 pm

Czechnology wrote:
Tater Raider wrote:I'm a law-abiding citizen. The theater has a "no gun" policy. I wouldn't have been shooting at the perp.

Iowa policy on private property and no guns allowed: You will be asked to leave. If you do not leave then you are committing a class D felony (I think, but I could be wrong). Federal Gun Free Zones are covered by Federal Law.
You're confusing Trespassing with the No Gun policy having the force of law. You're only committing a Class D Felony if you refuse to leave after they ask you to (for ANY reason). The same law applies to your property. It has nothing to do with firearms specifically.
I was speaking only in terms of refusing to leave when asked, the why being the firearm. Thanks for the clarification (sometimes I don't say what I think I am saying)! :)

jor-el, thanks for the pro-tip on the flashlight. :ooh:

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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by RickOShea » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:24 pm

jor-el wrote:
So far, no one's brought up the one thing that might tip the scales. It's part of my EDC.

Image
And one of these.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alpha-G10-led-b ... 5647e97cb8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

About 400 lumens shined in anyone's eyes and they will be dazzled, especially in the dark.
Wow!!! 400 lumens!.....And I thought my Malkoff/G2 was bright. :shock:

I don't EDC a light, but I always take the G2 with me to the movies.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by Uncle Chuck » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:33 pm

According to the schematic, the shooter was moving up and down the right exit corridor as he was firing into the crowd. That's your first opportunity to engage: while his back was turned.

Also, he apparently engaged with the three weapons he was carrying in the following sequence: shotgun (until empty I assume - 5 shots since it was an 870), AR (until his rotary mag jammed - unknown how many rounds fired at this point), and finally his "Glock .40" (assuming he didn't reload the Glock, a max of 15+1 rounds if it was G22).

So...there were several pauses/transitions here...when he emptied the shotty and went to his AR...when the AR jammed (also assuming his apparently low level of proficiency with the AR, there was probably some period where he was fumble-fucking with the AR and mag trying to figure out WTF was wrong with it)...then the transition (presumably slow and clumsy) to Glock...and finally the slide-lock on the Glock. At this point all three weapons are either dry or in need of remedial action.

I count AT LEAST FIVE opportunities to engage him and/or tackle him when he would have been unable to return fire.

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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by jor-el » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:24 pm

RickOShea wrote:
jor-el wrote:
So far, no one's brought up the one thing that might tip the scales. It's part of my EDC.

Image
And one of these.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alpha-G10-led-b ... 5647e97cb8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

About 400 lumens shined in anyone's eyes and they will be dazzled, especially in the dark.
Wow!!! 400 lumens!.....And I thought my Malkoff/G2 was bright. :shock:

I don't EDC a light, but I always take the G2 with me to the movies.
Arctic trader's the Ebay merchant, he's changed his specs down from when he first intro'ed the bulb. He originally claimed 420. Mine's three years old, so I'm assuming degradation.
Even so, it's awfully effective on all subjects I've had to examine. To a man, they all complain about the intensity, and ask me not to illuminate them. I usually don't agree to do that until such people have been verified as to ID and purpose. My department considers it the least level of force possible.

Last I heard, flashlights are not illegal, nor are there restrictions on power levels.ANyone can have one, and I recommend getting a quality unit with a good supply of batteries or good rechargables.

Check out this Surefire Fury, claims 500 lumens.
Image
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by MacAttack » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:24 am

Thanks for the diagram.


If I was with my brother, and we were allowed to carry, we would have ended up in one of the the two upper corner areas. Those look like handicapped areas and hes wheelchair bound. He would have had his CCW also.

If in the left hand side area we would have been farthest from the shooter and out the door as soon as possible.
If in the right hand side we would have been right in front of the guy and both of us would have had clear shots. And more than likely taken them.

In any other situation I would have taken a seat as close to the middle as possible. Ans that would have left me hoping. Hoping he didn't shoot me first, hoping everyone kept their heads down and hoping I got a clear shot.

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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by Czechnology » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:31 am

MacAttack wrote:
In any other situation I would have taken a seat as close to the middle as possible.
I do this too, but I tend to shoot for the top/back row whenever possible. I feel safer with my back to a wall and the capability to see the entire room.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by RickOShea » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:42 am

I'm a creature of habit.....I try to go for the very top row (or no more than one or two down from it), and the aisle seat on the left side of the center section, when facing the screen.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by RomeoRockwell » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:30 pm

When i was younger i worked at a movie theater. Whats been really bothering me is the fact that reports say the shooter left through the emergency exit. Well when someone exited the movie theater through the emergency exit, an alarm would go off and we would have to go in and manually chck the door. Why didnt someone check and lock that door at the time of the shooters exit? That security feature helps prevent people from sneaking into the movie theaters.

And OT I live in Chicago so ccw is not an option. I typically sit in one of the last 4 rows towards the back because i to prefer a wall to my 6 and the rest of the room in front of me. If im going to see a movie at that time of night i would either be going with family or friends mostly women with the exception of my best friend, brother in law, and uncles. For the exception of those three im the primary line of defense and i would give my life for them. Honestly wouldnt know what else i would do except to draw fire away from my loved ones while they manage to escape. Difficult situation to be in especially being from chicago. :roll:

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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by MacAttack » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:42 pm

Its easy enough to fix the alarm.

He obviously planned this out so I see o reason he didn't pick the theater ahead of time. He could have been there a dozen times in the last month and at any time he could have ripped the wires out of the alarm.

Do it once to see if the alarm goes off when they are ripped out or not. If it goes off then wait to see how long they take to turn it off. Then watch to see how many days it takes to fix.
If you didn't already notice the kids in the neighborhood using one of the doors while you watched from inside in your car.

The alarm is the simple part of this plot.

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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by RickOShea » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:09 pm

RomeoRockwell wrote:When i was younger i worked at a movie theater. Whats been really bothering me is the fact that reports say the shooter left through the emergency exit. Well when someone exited the movie theater through the emergency exit, an alarm would go off and we would have to go in and manually chck the door. Why didnt someone check and lock that door at the time of the shooters exit? That security feature helps prevent people from sneaking into the movie theaters.
Is that just a Chicago/Cook County/Illinois thing?

Around hear, the exits on either side of the screen aren't necessarily "emergency exits".......They're "access controlled egrees doors". At the couple of multiplexes I go to, about half the audience uses those as the exit to get to the side and rear parking lots after the flick is over with.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by Czechnology » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:37 pm

RickOShea wrote:
RomeoRockwell wrote:When i was younger i worked at a movie theater. Whats been really bothering me is the fact that reports say the shooter left through the emergency exit. Well when someone exited the movie theater through the emergency exit, an alarm would go off and we would have to go in and manually chck the door. Why didnt someone check and lock that door at the time of the shooters exit? That security feature helps prevent people from sneaking into the movie theaters.
Is that just a Chicago/Cook County/Illinois thing?

Around hear, the exits on either side of the screen aren't necessarily "emergency exits".......They're "access controlled egrees doors". At the couple of multiplexes I go to, about half the audience uses those as the exit to get to the side and rear parking lots after the flick is over with.
Yeah, just like "Assault Rifle" and "Ballistic Armor", they seem to go with whatever term for a door sounds the scariest.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by jor-el » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:15 pm

jor-el wrote:
RickOShea wrote:
jor-el wrote:
So far, no one's brought up the one thing that might tip the scales. It's part of my EDC.

Image
And one of these.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alpha-G10-led-b ... 5647e97cb8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

About 400 lumens shined in anyone's eyes and they will be dazzled, especially in the dark.
Wow!!! 400 lumens!.....And I thought my Malkoff/G2 was bright. :shock:

I don't EDC a light, but I always take the G2 with me to the movies.
Arctic trader's the Ebay merchant, he's changed his specs down from when he first intro'ed the bulb. He originally claimed 420. Mine's three years old, so I'm assuming degradation.
Even so, it's awfully effective on all subjects I've had to examine. To a man, they all complain about the intensity, and ask me not to illuminate them. I usually don't agree to do that until such people have been verified as to ID and purpose. My department considers it the least level of force possible.

Last I heard, flashlights are not illegal, nor are there restrictions on power levels.ANyone can have one, and I recommend getting a quality unit with a good supply of batteries or good rechargables.

Check out this Surefire Fury, claims 500 lumens.
Image
Something I'm rolling the dice on. If as advertised, this should be pretty effective.

http://shop.hidcountry.com/1600-lm-cree ... lashlight/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by RickOShea » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:50 pm

jor-el wrote:
Something I'm rolling the dice on. If as advertised, this should be pretty effective.

http://shop.hidcountry.com/1600-lm-cree ... lashlight/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Holy priceless collection of Etruscan snoods, Batman!....I'd be afraid that I'd accidentally have it turn on in my pocket or pouch and set myself on fire. :shock:

I have almost a dozen G2s, and a couple of them have the 250 lumen Malkoff heads. I see that they also make a 300 lumen Malkoff, but I don't know if anyone makes anything more powerful than that for the G2.
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Sumdood wrote:Welcome to 2020. I would list all the rules here, but there are too many and most of them are made up as we go. Just be prepared to be punished for something.

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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by jor-el » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:16 pm

RickOShea wrote:
jor-el wrote:
Something I'm rolling the dice on. If as advertised, this should be pretty effective.

http://shop.hidcountry.com/1600-lm-cree ... lashlight/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Holy priceless collection of Etruscan snoods, Batman!....I'd be afraid that I'd accidentally have it turn on in my pocket or pouch and set myself on fire. :shock:

I have almost a dozen G2s, and a couple of them have the 250 lumen Malkoff heads. I see that they also make a 300 lumen Malkoff, but I don't know if anyone makes anything more powerful than that for the G2.
There's another retailer that used to mod 35 to 50 watt automotive bulbs into a Maglite body to make 2000 and up lumen counts. They included leather or Kydex holsters just to avoid anything hitting the switch by accident.

I think 4-500 lumens is the limit for a G2. The nitrolon bodies aren't much of a heat sink, and mine does get hot after a few minutes of use. Still, by all means, carry one as much as possible. Ya never know...
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by Czechnology » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:17 pm

RickOShea wrote:
jor-el wrote:
Something I'm rolling the dice on. If as advertised, this should be pretty effective.

http://shop.hidcountry.com/1600-lm-cree ... lashlight/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Holy priceless collection of Etruscan snoods, Batman!....I'd be afraid that I'd accidentally have it turn on in my pocket or pouch and set myself on fire. :shock:

I have almost a dozen G2s, and a couple of them have the 250 lumen Malkoff heads. I see that they also make a 300 lumen Malkoff, but I don't know if anyone makes anything more powerful than that for the G2.
My 240l Fenix accidentally switched itself on in my front pocket last week. I thought sitting in the sun had warmed it up a bit so I shifted it in closer to my... uh... "attached equipment" to get it away from the sun.

:ooh: Bad move. That sucker was HOT.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by DarkAxel » Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:05 pm

duodecima wrote: Me? Like I said, not in that league. I would likely not take the same shot (assuming I could and was CCing) because I know what I am (and am not) capable of. Does that mean somebody like me should just never bother CC'ing? Don't think so, just because I'm not good enough to use it in this one particular Kobayashi Maru situation doesn't mean it's useless in other situations. Does any of this mean somebody like Doc shouldn't start shooting when, in his judgement, it's the least bad of all the shitty options? Hell no.

My concern would be somebody who shoots as badly as I do, panicking like the guy who ran but just shooting wildly instead. Them, I'm gonna have trouble forgiving...
This has got to be the smartest responses I've read. I've heard a lot of chest-thumping and e-penis wagging from folks claiming that one Concealed carrier could have put a stop to the shooting spree. Not many stop to think that many of the folks with CCLs found "rubber-stamp" instructors that only gave the most cursory safety training, and many of those folks can barely fire a gun without shooting their dick off because they don't train.

I've yet to meet a CCW instructor that actually teaches students how fight with a gun when bullets are flying around them. There's a big difference between range-time and a gunfight, and there's a wide gulf between the minimum training required for a CCL and the training needed to win a gun battle.

I've never been in a gunfight, and God willing, I never will be. I honestly don't know what I would do if I ever found myself in the middle of someone's field of fire. I train to shoot from cover and from odd positions, but I've never had any formal instruction. If I had a good shot I like to think I'd try to take it, but if I know that I'm going to do more harm than good I'm going to try to keep my weapon down and escape or help others.
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