A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by JesterODX » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:49 am

RickOShea wrote:
DarkAxel wrote:
Protective masks degrade combat effectiveness.
That's why they invented double lens "thermal" goggles. But I dont' know if any gas masks have them.

No but there are tons of antifog sprays and solitions out there. And that particular mask isnt obstructing his field of view much. Now I will say the smoke grenades probably did...

Have they ever said he was using regular ole smoke grenades or had he cooked up some nasty shit grenades? I've never heard anyone say. I dont guess they sell OC and CS gas grenades to the public do they?
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:35 am

JesterODX wrote:
RickOShea wrote:
DarkAxel wrote:
Protective masks degrade combat effectiveness.
That's why they invented double lens "thermal" goggles. But I dont' know if any gas masks have them.

No but there are tons of antifog sprays and solitions out there. And that particular mask isnt obstructing his field of view much. Now I will say the smoke grenades probably did...

Have they ever said he was using regular ole smoke grenades or had he cooked up some nasty shit grenades? I've never heard anyone say. I dont guess they sell OC and CS gas grenades to the public do they?
Any mask obstructs your view, especially peripheral. I've used the M40, M50, and futzed with a few foreign ones. From what I've seen, his mask looks like an M50, not the Survivair. It's less restrictive, and even if it wasn't fogging up, he's losing peripheral vision, breathing poorly (I didn't see a canister, so either he was sucking the same gas/smoke he threw out, or the can was removed after the fact.

Regardless, even an ACH limits your FOV and reduces your effectiveness as a shooter. I stand by my informed opinion that a jackass liek this would have had to use the combo fo gas, limited access/egress, and panic to get close instead of being able to accurately and aggressively paint a real-time picture of the battlefield and engage. Single well-aimed shots would have shit in his cheerios as long as they were impacting. Misses, as usual, don't count unless you can drop them in strings of six or more while someone else maneuvers to flank.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by squinty » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:49 am

Slightly off topic but any conclusive word yet whether he had on an armored vest or just a load bearing/tactical vest? Reports vary.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by RickOShea » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:58 am

JesterODX wrote:
RickOShea wrote:
DarkAxel wrote:
Protective masks degrade combat effectiveness.
That's why they invented double lens "thermal" goggles. But I dont' know if any gas masks have them.

No but there are tons of antifog sprays and solitions out there.
How well do those work on a sealed gas mask? We tried the no-fog sprays on our protective goggles, and even with air-flow vent holes in the bottom and top of the goggles, they'd still fog up, just more slowly.

Heck, we even had little 9-volt fans that clipped to the top of the goggles to force air-flow throught the goggles. They'd still get condensation in the corners most days, and you had the sound of that quarter-sized fan "buzzing" on your forehead.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:53 am

Everything I've read after the fact says that nothing he was wearing was armor.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by JesterODX » Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:59 am

RickOShea wrote: How well do those work on a sealed gas mask? We tried the no-fog sprays on our protective goggles, and even with air-flow vent holes in the bottom and top of the goggles, they'd still fog up, just more slowly.

Heck, we even had little 9-volt fans that clipped to the top of the goggles to force air-flow throught the goggles. They'd still get condensation in the corners most days, and you had the sound of that quarter-sized fan "buzzing" on your forehead.
The design of the mask itself is suppose to prevent fogging. Its got the mouth and nose cover that is suppose to seal off and help prevent fogging from respiration. They work decently on the air packs when I was on the fire department. Which were Survivair. It was better then the old mask I used that didnt have them. But the kicker was fogging from body heat and you get the condensation like you said. Never used anti fog on a sealed mask, but it would probably be worse then the vented mask or goggles.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by RickOShea » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:14 pm

Doc Torr wrote:Everything I've read after the fact says that nothing he was wearing was armor.
There was another link somewhere (probably the thread that got locked) that had an interview with the store owner that sold him a non-ballistic tac-vest. It had a picture of the vest, too. Just looked like a vest with a bunch of pouches on it.

I can't tell for sure, but in this picture it sorta looks like a soft vest laying at the foot of the agent in the foreground:

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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by JesterODX » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:38 pm

If it was a carrier, he could have gotten plates else where. Or if the vest in the pic is his and its armor, he might have had it on under a tac vest.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by RickOShea » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:59 pm

JesterODX wrote:If it was a carrier, he could have gotten plates else where. Or if the vest in the pic is his and its armor, he might have had it on under a tac vest.
Not a plate carrier....Just a Blackhawk "urban assault" vest: http://chesterfield.patch.com/articles/ ... o-10721386
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by JesterODX » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:02 pm

How is it crazy nut case mass murderers can afford a new Smith AR, and Black Hawk tac vest and bomb making materials and not have a darn job but I cant and work for a living...?

It always comes down to a mad scientist. Thank God he didnt get blown up in a lab accident or he'd have ended up with super powers.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by Uncle Chuck » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:10 pm

JesterODX wrote:How is it crazy nut case mass murderers can afford a new Smith AR, and Black Hawk tac vest and bomb making materials and not have a darn job but I cant and work for a living...?
When shooting/blowing up a bunch of innocent people seems like a good idea to someone, I'm sure maxing out and then defaulting on ones credit cards wouldn't seem like much of a problem.

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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:24 pm

Uncle Chuck wrote:
JesterODX wrote:How is it crazy nut case mass murderers can afford a new Smith AR, and Black Hawk tac vest and bomb making materials and not have a darn job but I cant and work for a living...?
When shooting/blowing up a bunch of innocent people seems like a good idea to someone, I'm sure maxing out and then defaulting on ones credit cards wouldn't seem like much of a problem.
Didn't he have a $23,000 dollar grant or something?

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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by squinty » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:42 pm

Tetra Grammaton Cleric wrote:
Uncle Chuck wrote:
JesterODX wrote:How is it crazy nut case mass murderers can afford a new Smith AR, and Black Hawk tac vest and bomb making materials and not have a darn job but I cant and work for a living...?
When shooting/blowing up a bunch of innocent people seems like a good idea to someone, I'm sure maxing out and then defaulting on ones credit cards wouldn't seem like much of a problem.
Didn't he have a $23,000 dollar grant or something?

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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by jor-el » Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:27 pm

RickOShea wrote:
Doc Torr wrote:Everything I've read after the fact says that nothing he was wearing was armor.
There was another link somewhere (probably the thread that got locked) that had an interview with the store owner that sold him a non-ballistic tac-vest. It had a picture of the vest, too. Just looked like a vest with a bunch of pouches on it.

I can't tell for sure, but in this picture it sorta looks like a soft vest laying at the foot of the agent in the foreground:

Image
Based on the photo it seems like a tac vest rolled up on the ground next to the vest laying flat on the ground. The flat vest looks like soft armor, but we'll probably have to await AAR to confirm.

Still, a vest only covers the chest. The helmet, if real and not an airsoft, only covers half the head. Arms, legs, lower torso NOT covered. Neck NOT covered. Assuming anyone were in a position to engage with a CCW, a groin/butt/hip shot might be the easiest thing IF the Tango even looks like he/she is wearing body armor and/or helmet.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by RickOShea » Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:11 pm

jor-el wrote:
Based on the photo it seems like a tac vest rolled up on the ground next to the vest laying flat on the ground. The flat vest looks like soft armor, but we'll probably have to await AAR to confirm.
That's what I was thinking: a soft pull-over lvl 2 or 3 vest, with the ammo carrying "assualt vest" over it.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by MacAttack » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:06 pm

It now seems the person he sent his notebook outlining his intended killings was also his on campus psychiatrist.
Whom he had been seeing professionally for a few months at least.


And as a PHD student he was in part an employee of the university, sort of. He was expected to help his professors in their work and at the same he was expected to do his own research which he was being paid to do.
Though he would normally be left alone to do his own research.


I am wondering why several PHD's and at least one psychiatrist didn't notice he was heading around the twist and got him more or better help, or at least alert the administration of their suspicions.
One gun clinging, undereducated(at least not to their standards), normal guy who owned a gun range noticed and was concerned. And seemed on the verge of calling the authorities on him.

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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by RickOShea » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:31 pm

Well, even if someone is required by a judicial authority to have a mental evaluation, or are even found to be mentally incompetent, a lot of the individual states are very lax about reporting that info to the Feds.......so that it would show-up on an instant background check for a firearms purchase.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by Tater Raider » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:31 pm

Figure those folk are people too and may focus in on one aspect of the particular patient and miss others.

I have run into massive problems in the past with treatment. One doctor I had focused on on suspected drug abuse (no, never had that issue) because at times my symptoms presented a certain way.

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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by duodecima » Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:42 pm

The "signs" are always "obvious" in retrospect - it's the predicting what human beings will do in the murky future that's tough.

Even if required reports are made to authorities - they're not always legally actionable at that point. I recieved a ominously threatening letter once, and it was reported. But there were no specifics, guy said when questioned (I assume, not like the police gave me a transcript) that he was just pissed off, and didn't mean it that way. Nothing further happened (to him, or anyone else). But, let's say he HAD gone on to commit some violent crimes - every single reporting rule had been followed and the police had followed up to the best of their ability.
It now seems the person he sent his notebook outlining his intended killings was also his on campus psychiatrist.
Whom he had been seeing professionally for a few months at least.

I am wondering why several PHD's and at least one psychiatrist didn't notice he was heading around the twist and got him more or better help, or at least alert the administration of their suspicions.
One gun clinging, undereducated(at least not to their standards), normal guy who owned a gun range noticed and was concerned. And seemed on the verge of calling the authorities on him.
(There seems to be an implication that generally people at that university would hold a gun range owner in some kind of disdain. I'm not sure where the data for that came from, or what the relevance to the discussion or chain of events would be...)

Um. So, there is no education or profession that makes somebody a mind reader or fortune teller. There's a number of odd ducks running around this world, inside and outside of academic institutions. It's not a crime to have other people think you're "off", nor do most of these people commit crimes. What I find astonishing is the number of people who actually DO tell their physicians, psychologists, and psychiatrists about violent thoughts of harm or self-harm. If they don't bring it up, or deny it when questioned, and their behavior doesn't demonstrate otherwise - guess what? Free country. (Yes, right now every body is looking back and saying "of course he was headed for this! I thought so at the time!" The retrospectoscope is the only instrument with supposedly perfect visualization...)

Alert administration of their suspicions (if they truly had any at the time, and he didn't just seem like a duck too odd to function in their department)? There are some huge legally privacy issues there. Since (correct me if I'm wrong) the psychiatrist is employed by the university, both HIPAA and FERPA might apply. And all administration can do is either take action such as forcing a medical withdrawl from the university (and he withdrew on his own), or call the cops. Who need something fairly specific to go on. Call them and they may go talk to him - but unless he gives them some further cause to act (like making stupid threatening statements or demonstrating that he has committed some crime) the police can't just arrest him because he made his psychiatrist or his department head really worried.

As far as I can tell, the timeline on which he sent the notebooks to his psychiatrist, when they were recieved, and the details that might be in them, are disputed, and I'd wait on the actual court proceedings to see what really happened there (there's gag orders on everybody in this, so we're not going to get hard info pretrial, I think.)
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by MacAttack » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:09 am

That boy needed a friend.
And not one single person there seems to have filled the bill.



Years ago a friend of mine was going for his doctorate. I got to meet his classmates and hang out with them a bit.
Well one decided to not show up for class for a week, My friend and I got worried. So we went over to his apartment. Who is sick for a week and doesn't call in or answer the phone?
It took us three hours to find the land lord and explain our situation. He kindly let us in because our friend was not answering the door or making noise for that matter. We got in and found the place a wreck, him sitting there in his underwear playing video games. Unwashed. He was out of it.
We found his personal phone book and called his family a thousand miles away. We stayed until his father flew in the next day. He was in for treatment the next week.

If the cops had just knocked on his door for a simple noise complaint (or anything) they would have been able to gain a visual of the place. Not one person was even friends enough or concerned enough to try that trick.
The police don't have to arrest someone. Often a simple look around and a talking to is enough for them to further investigate. Or decide all is well.

Anything that could have delayed him 24 hours might have removed his compulsion to commit the crime. Opening night would have been over and the best day would have been gone to him.

A friend could have asked him out for a beer. Just to talk. The friend could have then found out about the compulsion and done anything.

The smallest of acts could have the largest of impacts.

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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:28 am

MacAttack wrote:That boy needed a friend.
And not one single person there seems to have filled the bill.



Years ago a friend of mine was going for his doctorate. I got to meet his classmates and hang out with them a bit.
Well one decided to not show up for class for a week, My friend and I got worried. So we went over to his apartment. Who is sick for a week and doesn't call in or answer the phone?
It took us three hours to find the land lord and explain our situation. He kindly let us in because our friend was not answering the door or making noise for that matter. We got in and found the place a wreck, him sitting there in his underwear playing video games. Unwashed. He was out of it.
We found his personal phone book and called his family a thousand miles away. We stayed until his father flew in the next day. He was in for treatment the next week.

If the cops had just knocked on his door for a simple noise complaint (or anything) they would have been able to gain a visual of the place. Not one person was even friends enough or concerned enough to try that trick.
The police don't have to arrest someone. Often a simple look around and a talking to is enough for them to further investigate. Or decide all is well.

Anything that could have delayed him 24 hours might have removed his compulsion to commit the crime. Opening night would have been over and the best day would have been gone to him.

A friend could have asked him out for a beer. Just to talk. The friend could have then found out about the compulsion and done anything.

The smallest of acts could have the largest of impacts.
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:59 am

MacAttack wrote:That boy needed a friend.
And not one single person there seems to have filled the bill.



Years ago a friend of mine was going for his doctorate. I got to meet his classmates and hang out with them a bit.
Well one decided to not show up for class for a week, My friend and I got worried. So we went over to his apartment. Who is sick for a week and doesn't call in or answer the phone?
It took us three hours to find the land lord and explain our situation. He kindly let us in because our friend was not answering the door or making noise for that matter. We got in and found the place a wreck, him sitting there in his underwear playing video games. Unwashed. He was out of it.
We found his personal phone book and called his family a thousand miles away. We stayed until his father flew in the next day. He was in for treatment the next week.

If the cops had just knocked on his door for a simple noise complaint (or anything) they would have been able to gain a visual of the place. Not one person was even friends enough or concerned enough to try that trick.
The police don't have to arrest someone. Often a simple look around and a talking to is enough for them to further investigate. Or decide all is well.

Anything that could have delayed him 24 hours might have removed his compulsion to commit the crime. Opening night would have been over and the best day would have been gone to him.

A friend could have asked him out for a beer. Just to talk. The friend could have then found out about the compulsion and done anything.

The smallest of acts could have the largest of impacts.
Well said. The military has been trying to get names for a program like this for years. There are several, some for suicide prevention, some for mental illness. What it basically boils down to is having the balls to yoke up your buddy and say "Hey dickweed, what's up?"
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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by Tater Raider » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:25 am

Also to ask for help when you hit the point where you know something isn't right and to pitch a fit if you aren't getting the right help. Not to take away from the excellent point just made because I completely agree with it, but right or wrong the final responsibility lies with the person with the issue.

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Re: A Cape Scenario 1: The Movie Theater and other

Post by Murph » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:17 am

Czechnology wrote: I do this too, but I tend to shoot for the top/back row whenever possible.
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