What if something like Katrina happened again?

Post by **Fosgate** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:29 pm

This video has bothered me for some time and what has really got me concerned is the story of the guys who were walking through the dark and ran into guys geared up like swat who already had their guns leveled before they knew they were there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26 ... r_embedded" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Got me thinking a lot about how officers are trained and anticipate reactions. Put yourself in this situation. Ten minutes from now the power goes out and there are no communications whatsoever. Nobody knows what is going on so you figure it is time to crack out the guns and ammo to protect you and your family. Couple days into it your run low on water, toilet paper or whatever and decide to see if you can find out if there is any kind of emergency setup point that can point you in the direction of fresh TP/ Water/ Hair Gel whatever. Also you hope to get some info as to what happened and what is going on.

You've heard some wild noises of people raising hell and seems to be more people than usual out wandering around. You gear up and carry your trusty AR/shotgun/spit ball gun etc with a small load out. Leave the wife and kid at the house with the rest of your arsenal watching out. On the way your confronted very forcefully with five heavily armed men that could be police swat or not, they don't really have any identification. They beat you to the punch of leveling guns at you first and approach screaming to put it down.

Todays day and age tells you if they are cops and you point your gun, these 5 assholes are going to drop you before you get a round off. At the same time they are not identifying who they are or their intent. If they are cops based on Katrina, martial law could have been declared and you have no idea. For all you know they may have the intent to disarm you and find out where you live (Because you have your ID in your wallet) and then go to your house and take your weapons there leaving you and your family defenseless from who knows what. What do you do?

Pull on them to tell them their intent and that your not giving up your weapon knowing they may shoot your ass in the process. Who knows they may only want to check you out and send you on your way, they could be other members of the community with no intent to harm you as they didn't shoot your ass already. And if you successfully defend yourself by putting them down after martial law has been declared and you find out their cops. Who is going to believe you that you defended yourself? You are after all now a cop killer of five officers. You'll be lucky if they take you and your family alive at this point. Seriously what would you do in a similar scenario?

Post by **Tater Raider** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:46 pm

This is why having supplies that can last longer than 72 hours is important. The first 3 days is the most critical, but you have to be ready for the next 3 weeks as well. I'd call having to go out a prep fail. It happens, but it's to be avoided for the very reason you put it up in WWYD.

Having said that, they beat me to the punch. It doesn't matter what I'm carrying or if I'm carrying. Demand they ID so I know what I'm dealing with and go from there. If they ID as cops, comply. If they don't ID, comply but figure a way to signal to the house that they are not to let anyone back inside, me included. My kid comes first and if that means I get the snot pounded out of me or end up dead due to my own lack of preps then that's what it means.

Post by **Doctorr Fabulous** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:19 am

So, the simplified scenario is that I left the safety and security of my home, opnly carrying, and 5 guys in SWAT gear now have me at gunpoint?

Yeah, it's time for me to calmly ask for ID and start asking myself why the hell I left the house, or why I stayed bugged in when i didn't have enough supplies for a bug-in. Or why I'm on foot, in the dark.

Post by **raptor** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:49 am

Fosgate wrote:This video has bothered me for some time and what has really got me concerned is the story of the guys who were walking through the dark and ran into guys geared up like swat who already had their guns leveled before they knew they were there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26 ... r_embedded" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Got me thinking a lot about how officers are trained and anticipate reactions. Put yourself in this situation. Ten minutes from now the power goes out and there are no communications whatsoever. Nobody knows what is going on so you figure it is time to crack out the guns and ammo to protect you and your family. Couple days into it your run low on water, toilet paper or whatever and decide to see if you can find out if there is any kind of emergency setup point that can point you in the direction of fresh TP/ Water/ Hair Gel whatever. Also you hope to get some info as to what happened and what is going on.

You've heard some wild noises of people raising hell and seems to be more people than usual out wandering around. You gear up and carry your trusty AR/shotgun/spit ball gun etc with a small load out. Leave the wife and kid at the house with the rest of your arsenal watching out. On the way your confronted very forcefully with five heavily armed men that could be police swat or not, they don't really have any identification. They beat you to the punch of leveling guns at you first and approach screaming to put it down.

Todays day and age tells you if they are cops and you point your gun, these 5 assholes are going to drop you before you get a round off. At the same time they are not identifying who they are or their intent. If they are cops based on Katrina, martial law could have been declared and you have no idea. For all you know they may have the intent to disarm you and find out where you live (Because you have your ID in your wallet) and then go to your house and take your weapons there leaving you and your family defenseless from who knows what. What do you do?

Pull on them to tell them their intent and that your not giving up your weapon knowing they may shoot your ass in the process. Who knows they may only want to check you out and send you on your way, they could be other members of the community with no intent to harm you as they didn't shoot your ass already. And if you successfully defend yourself by putting them down after martial law has been declared and you find out their cops. Who is going to believe you that you defended yourself? You are after all now a cop killer of five officers. You'll be lucky if they take you and your family alive at this point. Seriously what would you do in a similar scenario?

You really need to read this thread.

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=60213" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seriously:

1.) Why would you be out and about walking around after a disaster looking for trouble?

2.) Do you really think that if you are armed and a LEO/NG tells you to drop the weapon and you fail to comply you are going to live long enough to play street attorney with them?

3.) Why are you choosing to stay and not bugged out long ago.

What you are discussing here is called suicide by cop.

Post by **Fosgate** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:52 pm

Why doesn't anyone answer the question instead of debating why your in the situation in the first place. Shit happens, tornado blew your roof off an suck up your supplies, you gave a bunch of your supplies to help a friend get his up, your concerned for your parent in a retirement home, you lost half your supplies to a asian hooker, your out looking for an asian hooker. For whatever reason you are armed and they are armed screaming at you much like the Katrina situation in the video. Do you give up and hope they are cops and that they will let you keep your gun or do you fight and risk a strong chance of not surviving on the principle that your not giving up your gun until "they pry it from your cold dead hand."?

Post by **raptor** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:09 pm

Fosgate wrote:Why doesn't anyone answer the question instead of debating why your in the situation in the first place. Shit happens, tornado blew your roof off an suck up your supplies, you gave a bunch of your supplies to help a friend get his up, your concerned for your parent in a retirement home, you lost half your supplies to a asian hooker, your out looking for an asian hooker. For whatever reason you are armed and they are armed screaming at you much like the Katrina situation in the video. Do you give up and hope they are cops and that they will let you keep your gun or do you fight and risk a strong chance of not surviving on the principle that your not giving up your gun until "they pry it from your cold dead hand."?

If you read the above link it describes in detail what to do and various situations.

The answer is simply stay indoors and away from LEO/NGs

Post by **Doctorr Fabulous** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:12 pm

Fosgate wrote:Why doesn't anyone answer the question instead of debating why your in the situation in the first place. Shit happens, tornado blew your roof off an suck up your supplies, you gave a bunch of your supplies to help a friend get his up, your concerned for your parent in a retirement home, you lost half your supplies to a asian hooker, your out looking for an asian hooker. For whatever reason you are armed and they are armed screaming at you much like the Katrina situation in the video. Do you give up and hope they are cops and that they will let you keep your gun or do you fight and risk a strong chance of not surviving on the principle that your not giving up your gun until "they pry it from your cold dead hand."?

I did answer the question. but to answer your second question:
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =31&t=9022

kyle wrote:If your new thread is about a specific disastrous circumstance or scene that you want to talk about how to better prepare for then you are in the right place.

Posting in WWYD means that you have this scenario in mind, therefore most of the focus is going to be on "back up, hold on, you done fucked up thrice" and essentially fixing the judgement errors that lead you to be outside, armed, with three guns drawn on you because you didn't prep in the first time.

That's why. If a hooker took off with my supplies, we'd discuss how the hooker got there, OPSEC, and security. if it was a tornado that took my supplies, we'd be talkign about secondary caches, contacting friends and neighbors, and most importantly, NOT wandering around in the dark in a clearly dangerous situation.

But to answer the question, if they look like LEOs, they outnumber me, and have guns drawn, it's time to ease down to the ground and comply, and request to see some ID, or ask what you are being detained for.

If it's 5:1 and they've already drawn, I don't care if they all have gang t-shirts with matching tattoos and signs that say "I will anally violate you and take your stuff" I'm still not going to try to out-draw and fire 5 guys who already have the drop on me. That's called suicide, whether by cop or chaps-wearing underpants forgetting raiders.

I'd suggest reading the (admittedly long) thread that raptor linked.

EDIT to fix code.

Post by **Mr.Pliskin** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:23 pm

Aside from under prepping, wrong place wrong time, whatever...isnt this scenario what body armor and friends are for?

Post by **polliedes** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:26 pm

If they are armed like a swat team and I am that out-numbered at that range, I am going to comply.
The world hasn't went to crap, just a small part of it.
Based on the limited information I have in the situation, odds are that they are the authorities and odds are almost certain that I am going to die if I do anything aggressive.
If they are not the authorities, odds are that if I comply I will survive. If they want to start something I am dead either way.

Post by **JesterODX** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:27 pm

If five bad guys have the drop on me, I'm a gonna do what they say. You cant out gun five men with rifle leveled. At this point you say woe, hold up, yes sir. I mean it is what it is. If they want you dead, you are dead. They can kill you as easily as not. Co-operating may keep them from needing to kill you if you have something they want.

Hope not to ever find myself in a situation like that.

EDIT:
polliedes, You beat me to it, but you said it the way I see.

Post by **majorhavoc** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:33 pm

Fosgate wrote:Why doesn't anyone answer the question instead of debating why your in the situation in the first place. Shit happens, tornado blew your roof off an suck up your supplies, you gave a bunch of your supplies to help a friend get his up, your concerned for your parent in a retirement home, you lost half your supplies to a asian hooker, your out looking for an asian hooker. For whatever reason you are armed and they are armed screaming at you much like the Katrina situation in the video. Do you give up and hope they are cops and that they will let you keep your gun or do you fight and risk a strong chance of not surviving on the principle that your not giving up your gun until "they pry it from your cold dead hand."?

I'll answer your question. Since you surrendered the huge tactical advantage you had remaining inside your home, you're now outgunned and outnumbered by five armed individuals of unknown intent who have the drop on you.

What do you do? You f-ing surrender, that's what you do.

You comply with their demands and hope to hell they really are cops. Either way, you'll probably lose your gun right there. Do you have the full force of the US Constitution backing up your right to walk away from that encounter with your weapon? Absolutely. But in a Katrina-like situation, don't count on that to protect you from being disarmed under the guise of "martial law".

The very best you can hope for in your scenario is to not get shot, hopefully not get arrested on suspicion of armed terrorizing, resisting arrest, looting, or whatever other trumped up charges these stressed-out and adrenaline-addled cops care to come up with. And hopefully be allowed to get back empty-handed. Where you can explain to your family why you went out dressed up like Rambo, nearly got shot and lost the primary means to defend home and hearth.

Fantasizing about the wild and wholly world of post apocalyptic surivival is fun to do. But the frustration you're detecting in everyone's responses is because in an actual disaster involving civil unrest, unless your home is being directly threatened, you stay the f*ck inside, hunker down, and keep a low profile until you know it's safe. Especially if you have a wife and kid. You are absolutely no good to them arrested or dead. You sure as hell don't gear up with a tactical load out and go looking for the sources of "wild noises of people raising hell".

If you absolutely must go out for water, medicine or Rice Krispy Treats, you go out quietly and inconspicously, armed with nothing beyond a well concealed pistol or knife.

Post by **bae** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:33 pm

Post by **JesterODX** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:36 pm

bae wrote:

Yes indeed. No win scenario.

Post by **Murph** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:40 pm

"Any problem on earth can be solved with the careful application of high explosives. The trick is to not be around when they go off."

Post by **Doctorr Fabulous** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:41 pm

Post by **Tater Raider** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:03 pm

Mr.Pliskin wrote:Aside from under prepping, wrong place wrong time, whatever...isnt this scenario what body armor and friends are for?

Body armor don't protect from a headshot, and a friend who decides that he needs to draw down when the others have weapons already pointed at me will end up with me dead. Not that I much care at this point - I'm pretty much vulture food anyways in this scenario.

A bigger stockpile, not body armor, is the correct solution to this problem - that is prep to avoid the problems created by lack of preps.

Example: take a look at my avatar. The canoe and bike are back-ups for the Jeep in case the Jeep breaks down - prepping my bug-out so I can keep moving at a decent pace.

Post by **Red Two** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:24 pm

Kobyashi Maru, indeed!

1)What are you doing "armed up" going off into the night looking for a fight? I think you've watched too many EOTW Hollywood movies.
2) All that fancy tacticool gear you have? Politely given to the "gang of 5 who have the drop on you"
3) Fancy tacticool gun? Gone. Politely given away too. If you act nice, you might be able to walk away.
4) Best you can hope for is that these 5 heavily armed guys don't ask you to lead them back to your home where you left your wife and kid/s.
5) I understand this is just hypothetical, but what would YOU do, original poster?

Preparing for a riot doesn't mean you're going to be able to John Wayne you self out of an overwhelming odds situation.

red two

Post by **Fosgate** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:47 pm

Tell you what I'm not going to do. I'm not going to flop on the ground and let them lead me away quietly to ether take away my gun or torture me into giving up where I came from. My women are alphas and can handle their own without me, but I'm not going to lead trouble to them. I'm not going to put my hands on my gun unless they are already there in which case I'll be sure not to point it in their direction. Cop or not, nobody is simply going to take my guns from me without objection or a fight. In the event of martial law they could very well be essential to staying alive. I would initially try backing up asking to identify and intent (they want to disarm you either under orders, for their safety to talk, or for their own stash and they don't want their new gear all shot up.) Both will lie to you and tell you that they will give them back. It's up to you to determine if you can trust their word or not and to know their tactics so you can employ your own to counter. This is where preparation is essential and not just food and water but study of tactics. When hostile govt takeovers happen and oppression occurs within a system such as the Nazi's oppressing the Jews, most often it is first the police that go door to door. Not that I don't like the police as I have a few close friends in law enforcement but you have to realize they could very quickly become your enemy in the right environment and series of scenarios. IE: The officers convicted of shooting unarmed civilians like New Orleans was a third world country after Katrina. I could only hope a take one or more with me in a case like that.

Post by **raptor** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:28 pm

Fosgate wrote: Cop or not, nobody is simply going to take my guns from me without objection or a fight. In the event of martial law they could very well be essential to staying alive. I would initially try backing up asking to identify and intent (they want to disarm you either under orders, for their safety to talk, or for their own stash and they don't want their new gear all shot up.)

...snip....

I could only hope a take one or more with me in a case like that.

I have read similar comments quite often. Perhaps too often.

At the risk of being a churl (no offense intended); in the circumstance you described; you would be dead before you knew what hit you at the first sign of noncompliance.

If you were lucky, your body would be taken to a first responder. If you were not lucky your body would be found in a burned out car or in the rubble.

You need to rethink your plan a & plan b to come up with something that is at least survivable.

Post by **Boondock** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:44 pm

Yup. Bangkok Rules. Either that or whistle Dixie ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQt5WPQTwN0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **Murph** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:08 pm

Fosgate wrote:Tell you what I'm not going to do. I'm not going to flop on the ground and let them lead me away quietly to ether take away my gun or torture me into giving up where I came from. My women are alphas and can handle their own without me, but I'm not going to lead trouble to them. I'm not going to put my hands on my gun unless they are already there in which case I'll be sure not to point it in their direction. Cop or not, nobody is simply going to take my guns from me without objection or a fight. In the event of martial law they could very well be essential to staying alive. I would initially try backing up asking to identify and intent (they want to disarm you either under orders, for their safety to talk, or for their own stash and they don't want their new gear all shot up.) Both will lie to you and tell you that they will give them back. It's up to you to determine if you can trust their word or not and to know their tactics so you can employ your own to counter. This is where preparation is essential and not just food and water but study of tactics. When hostile govt takeovers happen and oppression occurs within a system such as the Nazi's oppressing the Jews, most often it is first the police that go door to door. Not that I don't like the police as I have a few close friends in law enforcement but you have to realize they could very quickly become your enemy in the right environment and series of scenarios. IE: The officers convicted of shooting unarmed civilians like New Orleans was a third world country after Katrina. I could only hope a take one or more with me in a case like that.

You just Godwin'd yourself, dood. Good Job, Classy.

Post by **squinty** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:10 pm

Fosgate wrote: They beat you to the punch of leveling guns at you first and approach screaming to put it down.

This quote ^ is about the only thing you need to consider at this point. If you are outgunned and beaten to the punch as you describe, can you expect to offer any successful resistance even if they aren't cops? You just lost. There probably isn't any winning move at this point. If you'd made different choices a few moves back, or if your luck had broken a different way, you could have won. But you didn't, and it didn't, so you lost.

Post by **Tater Raider** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:10 pm

Quoting myself from another thread.

NSFW - Actual Shooting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSfOBPlY2n0

Note they started shouting after they began breaking down the door. 1 unarmed man dead. The shooting was found justified under Utah law.

I'm not passing judgement on that no-knock warrant being served, just pointing out the futility of resisting folk when they have the drop on you and how little it takes to justify a LEO who does to consider you resisting and be absolved of blame.

This is why you avoid crap like going out during a disaster at night, why they have cerfews, and so on.

Post by **jor-el** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:32 pm

bae wrote:

And how did James Tiberius Kirk solve this? He altered the scenario so that it was possible to survive.

We're telling you the best, possibly the only way to win this encounter is to never have this encounter.

If this were NYC before July 2015, odds are I'd be one of those five, and we'd be LEOs. We would be in uniform and you would have absolutely no chance of beating five of us, let alone me. Best reason? It wouldn't be five, number six would be on overwatch covering our movements. More likely, I'd be number 6.

Unless you normally walk around with rifle at low ready, you're gonna have a real hard time going from slung to aimed fire on five aimed rifles.

Guess you really didn't think this through.

Zombie Squad

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