City or country???

[tookieblueeyes]

Better yet, start teaching them to be constructive by teaching them the skills they need. Remember kiddies, as fun as it is to feel superior to everyone else, it's a lot more fun to remember the spirit of charity and outreach that ZS was founded on.

Building your community to be better and more resilient is easier than trying to hold them at bay when the lights go out for a month.

Sorry to say it... but there are just some people who just don't give a shit and would rather spit in your face and shit on your shoe than listen to one word you have to say let alone learn anything you would want to teach them, even if it was for their betterment.

I am in no way superior to anyone and I prefer to see myself as "equal" rather than more than or less than any other individual walking the face of this planet from a Juarez Cartel member who just shot 5 immigrants trying to cross the border while their coyote ditched them at the first sign of trouble, just because they happen to walk into an area where they are offloading their "product" into rafts to cross the Rio Grande.... nor am I less than the fella that just sold all his enron stock before SHTF on the market.

I have taken many a youngster who was willing and wanting to learn bushcraft and survival skills and taken them out on trips to do just that.

I have given my nephew all the keys that I have (which are by no means ALL the keys but are a GOOD BASIS to start from and progress from there) to ensure his survival in the woods when he ventures out on his own on a hunt, as have I also given him the knowledge I have about what little I know about prepping and being prepared for natural disasters and the ever looming possibility of long term survival in the event of a cataclysmic event or extinction event (depending on how you see it, what you call it or how you label it).

But I have also encountered more than plenty of youngsters (when I was their age and younger and even today as their 10 or more year senior) who would rather rip your head off and shit down your neck in the dark alley behind the La Bamba Bar than even ponder the possibility that there is a whole other world outside their gang, their clique or their city. I have had many people tell me that they would rather die than be caught dead in a tent on a camp out.

So tell me Doc Torr... what is the best way of reaching out to an inner city Mexican Mafia gang member with a 9mm in their waste band and a bad attitude hanging out of every pocket?

10 years ago I used to have a friend that I used to work with, Pam, and she had a brother who was basically a mule for the counties biggest cocaine dealer and she and I would try and talk him into leaving that lifestyle and we reached out to him. I took him on many fishing trips and he was a great guy to be around, fun guy, and he always liked to drink beer and play cards with us at Pams, until Rob would call and he would have to run off to run drugs. Eventually Rob met Ernesto who had just gotten out of prison and was Mexican Mafia. He took the place of James as Rob's right hand man only he got way more perks and was a little less like a little bitch to Rob. Pam and I tried even harder to talk some sense into him but Nada, he was willing to fight for his position with Rob, and so Rob's solution was like ALL his solutions... fight it out. He had a boxing ring set up in his back yard he used to like to spar in and run illegal fights occasionally and he set James up against Ernesto in this ring one night. I was down the street and Pams at the time with my girlfriend Jamie and we were just shootin the breeze and drinking some beer when Robs girlfriend Theresa busts in through the front door and tells Pam and I that we need to go down the block to Robs. When we showed up we found James laying on the hood of Rob's Impala bleeding all over that Aztec and his princess on the hood. Ernesto had lost the fist fight but he pulled a knife and when James had his back turned he stabbed James 6 times. Of course no one is going to call the police or an ambulance and call attention to this house! If you did... well, you better be looking over your back for the rest of your life. Rob pretty much ordered Pam and I to stitch him up and get him home. When I calmly tried to explain to Rob (I grew up with Rob) that the wounds weren't something amateurs and CNA's like Pam could just "Stitch" up. He needed to be seen in an Emergency room, he didn't care. He pulled a nice and shiny 380 semi-auto on me and shoved it in my face and basically laid the rules of this game down on me. That was one incident I chalked up as a life lesson and will hopefully never be faced with that kind of bullshit scenario again...

But my point is this... Some people DON'T WANT YOUR HELP AND THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT ANYTHING YOU HAVE TO SAY.

In their reality there is only one world. The world revolves around their gang and it doesn't matter how much you reach out to some of these people, they are gonna laugh you off the block if they don't just open fire on you for insinuating that they would be better off without La Familia (their gang).

I'm sorry if you mistook what I said and assumed that I think I am better than anyone, because that is not at all the impression I meant to make on anyone and everyone who knows me personally knows I am humble, quiet, shy and some might even say I have low self-image or low-self esteem. That is what my mother keeps telling me anyway... but I am realistic and I speak from plenty of experience since I didn't always live on this side of the tracks.

I was a hoodlum and I ran a muck and caused trouble, boozed it and ran with a tough crowd, had friends who were in gangs, friends who were criminals. I have friends in prison and have friends who have done time in prison. I have lived in slums and I have worked in seedy areas and have even been to jail a time or two on my own but not for anything seriously screwed up (DUI and Probation Violation and I refused to pay a $500 fine from animal control because he shot my dog and I wasn't paying for that, and contempt of court because after the court hearing the dog catcher whispered to me he enjoyed dragging my dogs carcass off to the dump where he burned it, when he said that I turned around and grabbed a hold of his uniform and proceeded to scream profanities at him in the aisle between seating inside the courtroom) My decisions were not always wise ones and some were down right dumb and I have been in bad places at bad times and put myself in bad positions.

So I am speaking REALISTICALLY.

Set up a teen center to reach out and help inner city teens and give it time... someone always shows up to burglarize it, trash it, use it to run drugs through or bring their beefs in to rivals. Not all young adults know how to behave properly or treat things like "help" with respect because they have only one known way of survival... the streets, their gang and crime.

SO if you think that just by reaching out to these people it's gonna save the world... good luck. I'll eat my socks and underwear after prolonged wear if that really comes to fruition.

People have to WANT to learn, WANT to change, WANT a different mind set, WANT a different life and if they don't want it... no matter what you do or what you say, it isn't going to make them change their mind and make them want to learn new skills and new ideas.

There are good kids out there and yes reach out to them, and yes try and reach out to even the tough cases but that still doesn't mean your gonna succeed in your mission, it just means it is worth a try.

The kids that took the helping hand and guidance isn't likely to run over your land and try and take your preps. The one's you can't reach are the ones who are going to overrun the barn and burn the shop while they pillage and rape their way through the family farm house. But these are also the people who aren't going to venture too far out of their comfort level! That is what I was trying to make clear in my previous post... not that I am superior.

My only point in what I said WAS NOT TO BE SUPERIOR it is that these people are not equipped with the knowledge or skills they need to avoid dying of exposure or dehydration before they even reach your home in the country! And if they make it that far... good for them, but they still didn't prepare like the person they are about to encounter did and they are not likely to have a whole lot of ammo to go up against another arsenal. Their guns are mostly for show and tell and to scare the shit out of anyone they point it at and their hope is usually to just scare you into letting them have their way with your preps but if you are prepared to defend your property, they don't have a whole lot of hope to succeed in overrunning you unless they came prepared and in numbers and if they were PREPARED THEN THEY WOULDN'T BE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE! the reason they are trying to take your stuff is because THEY WEREN'T PREPARED so how could they possibly be PREPARED TO TAKE YOUR PREPS IF THEY WEREN'T PREPARED FOR THIS DISASTER IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Long winded "I'm not a...because I..."

You start by not assuming that everyone inner city kid is a weed smoking gang member with a 9mm. Get involved with an inner-city outreach program and help get to the kids before they become gang members or drug addicts.

I have no illusions about the state of humanity, but I can't help but feel that the "All of (fill in the blank) are gonna die off while all of US (preppers/survivalists) survive" is a superiority complex in overdrive, is shortsighted, and has no place on the website of a charity outreach group with a focus on preparedness (ZS). It is wildly popular among the survivalist sub-set though.

/soapbox

[Turtlewolf]

Long winded "I'm not a...because I..."

You start by not assuming that everyone inner city kid is a weed smoking gang member with a 9mm. Get involved with an inner-city outreach program and help get to the kids before they become gang members or drug addicts.

I have no illusions about the state of humanity, but I can't help but feel that the "All of (fill in the blank) are gonna die off while all of US (preppers/survivalists) survive" is a superiority complex in overdrive, is shortsighted, and has no place on the website of a charity outreach group with a focus on preparedness (ZS). It is wildly popular among the survivalist sub-set though.

/soapbox

This is actualy why I like debating with this individual, although my predictions are doom and gloom I agree with this and have seen people change when they realize they actualy have a choice and don't have to do what the criminals tell them.
I second this motion.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I'll admit the doom and gloom predictions never sat right with me. humans are too ornery to just up and die. We as a race tend to improvise rather well, and by generation two we as a race tend to make some really interesting shit work.

Besides, between Man Vs Wild, Survivorman, Dual Survival, and Man Woman Wild everyone with cable should be good...right?

[ItsGonnaBeALongWalk]

I kind of disagree with the small town idea. I could very much see a cop-wannabe type rounding up other wannabes and trying to re-enact the feudal system. If you didn't want to participate in their power structure you'd be in trouble. The safest thing would probably be far, far out in the middle of nowhere with 10ish trusted competent adults for safety and to keep you from dying of boredom. Far away from any draw for other people like a mall or anything like that. Preferably off marked roads.

[Steve74]

I would choose country over city anytime.

Just think about riots, it's always in big cities, the rural areas are just quiet.

[MacAttack]

I never thought that idea "Make your community the type of community you would like" to mean that you should try to FIX every kid in the hood.

Sorry but some just can't be saved. There are a myriad of reasons for each bad kid and quite frankly I don't care to argue over it.
Find the neighbors in your local area who have the balls of can be talked into it to do their civil duty. Call the cops and be witnesses. Keep calling until the cops know you by name and do something just to shut you up. Use the press if you must or can.
If you can't fix them then get them out of your neighborhood.


If you would like to change the world then start that change with you.
Be the example of what you want the world to be.


Want to do it the easy way? Join the scouts and start a program to get money to help those troubled inner city kids into the scouts. Or start you own 'outdoors' program in your community center. Catch the kids young and don't let them go.

Fix what you can and remove what you must.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I never thought that idea "Make your community the type of community you would like" to mean that you should try to FIX every kid in the hood.

Sorry but some just can't be saved. There are a myriad of reasons for each bad kid and quite frankly I don't care to argue over it.
Find the neighbors in your local area who have the balls of can be talked into it to do their civil duty. Call the cops and be witnesses. Keep calling until the cops know you by name and do something just to shut you up. Use the press if you must or can.
If you can't fix them then get them out of your neighborhood.


If you would like to change the world then start that change with you.
Be the example of what you want the world to be.


Want to do it the easy way? Join the scouts and start a program to get money to help those troubled inner city kids into the scouts. Or start you own 'outdoors' program in your community center. Catch the kids young and don't let them go.

Fix what you can and remove what you must.

I agree with everything here.

[ineffableone]

I kind of disagree with the small town idea. I could very much see a cop-wannabe type rounding up other wannabes and trying to re-enact the feudal system. If you didn't want to participate in their power structure you'd be in trouble. The safest thing would probably be far, far out in the middle of nowhere with 10ish trusted competent adults for safety and to keep you from dying of boredom. Far away from any draw for other people like a mall or anything like that. Preferably off marked roads.

There are usually some pretty decent checks and balances in a small town to prevent this sort of situation. Like said cop-wannabe's family and friends. His mother telling him publicly to stop acting like an ass and behave like a good boy takes a lot of feudal lord power out of a guy. Also don't count out the regular folks in the town. They wont just accept some guy to be their feudal lord because he has a gun and a few thug buddies. A guy trying this might find a pretty rude wake up call from the citizens he thought to lord over.

While that sort of thing might happen, I think it a lot less likely than you might think. Definitely though you would see the warning signs in the small town ahead of what ever SHTF senerio started. Small towns tend to gossip a lot and everyone knows each other's business. A guy with dreams of becoming a feudal lord would be quickly recognised as a town bully or spoiled rich kid or similar such gossip about the trouble maker. So if your in such a town with a potential problem child, then you know ahead of time you will need to deflate this guys ambitions early or move to a better small town.

Small towns are decent places due to this self correcting community type environment. They have the ability to have more self sustainment in them and enough people in them to protect from out side threats. Yet aren't too large to be uncontrollable by a small governing body. I would guess most small towns would retain their already elected government as their leaders. Mayors, city councils, etc. Much like the TV show Jericho where they looked to the Mayor to lead them.

Heading off to nowhere with 10 other adults might sound good, but if your not already set up there, then it is a difficult idea to execute well.

First, you have the large potential of running into others who are bugging out to same general area. Some might be preppers, others week end warriors, or some even just people who are your average refugee who got lost while trying to flee the city. Remember other people will be thinking the same idea, flee to where no one else is. So those areas will be the places a lot of people will be heading to.

Second, empty areas usually have a reason for being empty. While they might make good camping trip locations they are often very hard to survive long term. They usually have very limited resources spread out over a very large area. Weather in these areas tend to be extreme. Cold winters, hot summers, etc. It takes a lot of food to keep 10 adults alive. That means your going to need a lot of woods to range in to find the food.

Third, You said 10 trusted competent adults. How likely is it you get to just choose who you go with, unless you have advanced warning and can get out with your chosen few ahead of what ever.. More realistic in SHTF situations is your left with a random sampling of humanity who group together for mutual aid. Some you can trust, some your not sure (and may surprise you one way or other), and others your better off driving away from your group or they will be trouble.

Fourth, 10 adults is a decent sized group, but how do you organize? Are you the feudal lord of the group? If not how is it set up? Are some of these people couples? Are they families? Are there kids besides the 10 adults? How does all this get organized into an effective group that follows the same survival plan? People tend to look out for their own, so if there are couples, and kids, they will have higher priorities for them. Maybe hoarding food meant for the group for themselves? How do you deal with such issues in a small group?

A better option would be to already be living in the small town, if things get so bad you have to bug out of that town, then the small group in the middle of nowhere becomes your back up plan. But trying to stay in the small town and work with others for mutual survival tends to work out better than heading out to the woods expecting to survive there.

[rjm]

I can't imagine a scenerio where I'd rather be in a city than in the country in a disaster.

[rjm]

I kind of disagree with the small town idea. I could very much see a cop-wannabe type rounding up other wannabes and trying to re-enact the feudal system. If you didn't want to participate in their power structure you'd be in trouble. The safest thing would probably be far, far out in the middle of nowhere with 10ish trusted competent adults for safety and to keep you from dying of boredom. Far away from any draw for other people like a mall or anything like that. Preferably off marked roads.

I know this is a popular myth from hollywood about the small time sherrif rounding up a posse of slack-jawed yokels, but it's far from reality. Small towns and small town folk are remarkably stable people and I can assure anyone fearful of a redneck uprising, that there is no personality strong enough to rile enough of us good-ol-boys up to the point that we will enact some kind of hillbilly martial law on everyone in the community. If something were to happen, I assure you it would take the entire community to be behind it. Country folk, in my experience, have a natural aversion to being bossed around. Either that or its just a Texas thing. Either way, around here, we don't take kindly to dictators; big ones or little ones.

[MacAttack]

It all depends on your idea of city and country.


For some a city is a group of 1000 people with one stop sign on main street and only two cops, brothers.

For some this is also the country.


And for some a city just has to include public transportation and more than one court house.






And ditto to the above poster.

[rjm]

[quote="Doc Torr"]I'll admit the doom and gloom predictions never sat right with me. humans are too ornery to just up and die. We as a race tend to improvise rather well, and by generation two we as a race tend to make some really interesting shit work.quote]

Damn humans, the cock roaches of the animal world.

[ItsGonnaBeALongWalk]

I'm not basing my opinion off Hollywood. I'll give an example. In colleges where a woman is raped and the investigation is handled internally by the college, often the women is put under pressure to let it go. Nobody encourages her to go to the ED to get a rape kit. They definitely discourage her from filing a police report. Even when they decide a wrong was committed, often the punishment is laughably light (e.g. academic suspension). They'd much prefer the woman didn't complain about it at all (which is what usually happens). There is a federal law that forces colleges to disclose crime statistics because in the past colleges went out of their way to minimize incidence of crime on their campuses because they are more interested in saving face than keeping people safe. If a rape victim wanted to maximize their chance of justice their best course of action would be to insist that the investigation conducted by regular law enforcement.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =124001493

Random examples of the scary group psychology:
1. Slave owners raping their slave then showing up to church with their wife and nobody saying a word
2. People ratting out their Jewish neighbors during WWII, Tutsi neighbors during the Rwandan genocide to save their own necks
3. Gang rape and hate crimes
4. Spousal, child and elder abuse and nobody intervening
5. People covering for sexual predators
6. Bar fights and other stupid altercations
7. Frat boy thrill seeking forms of stupidity
8. Pressuring people to assume group identity (e.g. religion, heterosexual, etc)
9. Social acceptability and/or looking the other way for all of the above

In a stressful situation I would expect the worst of people.

That is not to say I would prefer to take my chances in a city. That has the all of the disadvantages of the above plus mob mentality.

[DarkAxel]

I kind of disagree with the small town idea. I could very much see a cop-wannabe type rounding up other wannabes and trying to re-enact the feudal system. If you didn't want to participate in their power structure you'd be in trouble. The safest thing would probably be far, far out in the middle of nowhere with 10ish trusted competent adults for safety and to keep you from dying of boredom. Far away from any draw for other people like a mall or anything like that. Preferably off marked roads.

I know this is a popular myth from hollywood about the small time sherrif rounding up a posse of slack-jawed yokels, but it's far from reality. Small towns and small town folk are remarkably stable people and I can assure anyone fearful of a redneck uprising, that there is no personality strong enough to rile enough of us good-ol-boys up to the point that we will enact some kind of hillbilly martial law on everyone in the community. If something were to happen, I assure you it would take the entire community to be behind it. Country folk, in my experience, have a natural aversion to being bossed around. Either that or its just a Texas thing. Either way, around here, we don't take kindly to dictators; big ones or little ones.

While country folk generally do not like people trying to push them around or tell them what to do, in my area, corruption and cronyism are widespread. In the past our LEOs have been on the other side of the law in secret before getting busted for it. Back in the '80s, the DEA arrested a bunch of county sheriffs in the region for bringing in cocaine. This year my county's school board went through two board chairmen for vote buying, and the chairman that held office last year had to resign because he was misusing public property and double-billing the state. Our current sheriff can't carry a firearm because he was convicted of a felony.

If TSHTF in a big way down here, I expect the worst from just about everybody.

[Blacksmith]

I kind of disagree with the small town idea. I could very much see a cop-wannabe type rounding up other wannabes and trying to re-enact the feudal system. If you didn't want to participate in their power structure you'd be in trouble. The safest thing would probably be far, far out in the middle of nowhere with 10ish trusted competent adults for safety and to keep you from dying of boredom. Far away from any draw for other people like a mall or anything like that. Preferably off marked roads.

I know this is a popular myth from hollywood about the small time sherrif rounding up a posse of slack-jawed yokels, but it's far from reality. Small towns and small town folk are remarkably stable people and I can assure anyone fearful of a redneck uprising, that there is no personality strong enough to rile enough of us good-ol-boys up to the point that we will enact some kind of hillbilly martial law on everyone in the community. If something were to happen, I assure you it would take the entire community to be behind it. Country folk, in my experience, have a natural aversion to being bossed around. Either that or its just a Texas thing. Either way, around here, we don't take kindly to dictators; big ones or little ones.

While country folk generally do not like people trying to push them around or tell them what to do, in my area, corruption and cronyism are widespread. In the past our LEOs have been on the other side of the law in secret before getting busted for it. Back in the '80s, the DEA arrested a bunch of county sheriffs in the region for bringing in cocaine. This year my county's school board went through two board chairmen for vote buying, and the chairman that held office last year had to resign because he was misusing public property and double-billing the state. Our current sheriff can't carry a firearm because he was convicted of a felony.

If TSHTF in a big way down here, I expect the worst from just about everybody.

A drug dealer elected county Sheriff is a bit of rarity in the country. Talk about one stop shopping. He should move to the big city he would do well.

[GraphicWave]

Obviously county. It's the safest place if you know what you are doing.
If you live in a small city or a town it's pretty good I guess, but always think about your self before anything or anyone else.

[rjm]

I'm not basing my opinion off Hollywood. I'll give an example. In colleges where a woman is raped and the investigation is handled internally by the college, often the women is put under pressure to let it go. Nobody encourages her to go to the ED to get a rape kit. They definitely discourage her from filing a police report. Even when they decide a wrong was committed, often the punishment is laughably light (e.g. academic suspension). They'd much prefer the woman didn't complain about it at all (which is what usually happens). There is a federal law that forces colleges to disclose crime statistics because in the past colleges went out of their way to minimize incidence of crime on their campuses because they are more interested in saving face than keeping people safe. If a rape victim wanted to maximize their chance of justice their best course of action would be to insist that the investigation conducted by regular law enforcement.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =124001493

Random examples of the scary group psychology:
1. Slave owners raping their slave then showing up to church with their wife and nobody saying a word
2. People ratting out their Jewish neighbors during WWII, Tutsi neighbors during the Rwandan genocide to save their own necks
3. Gang rape and hate crimes
4. Spousal, child and elder abuse and nobody intervening
5. People covering for sexual predators
6. Bar fights and other stupid altercations
7. Frat boy thrill seeking forms of stupidity
8. Pressuring people to assume group identity (e.g. religion, heterosexual, etc)
9. Social acceptability and/or looking the other way for all of the above

In a stressful situation I would expect the worst of people.

That is not to say I would prefer to take my chances in a city. That has the all of the disadvantages of the above plus mob mentality.

Sorry if I misread any of this but you must really think small town people are the scum of the earth if you are equating small town life with date-raping frat boys, bar fighting, slave rapeing (really??!!), child beating, brainwashed, homophobic, hatemongering sexual preditors. I'm probably wrong, but it just sounds like you have a titanic sized chip on your shoulder about small towns and the people in them.

And as far as the corrupt small town cop goes, I'll happily direct your attention to the fine members of the Metro-Dade and the City of Miami police departments. Back in the 80's and 90's they set an all time record for indictments and prosecutions of officers for crimes ranging from extortion to drug dealing to racketering to murder. There was also a little incident a few years ago of several New Orleans cops getting busted for operating a murder-for-hire business. If you really dig into just about any department's (big or small) past you will find someone who disgraced their office and the community.

[Tater Raider]

Not to mention the troubles in Atlanta's PD.

Bad people are everywhere, good people are everywhere. Cities have infrastructure while the country has resources.

A scenario where living in a big city is better: anything involving mass casualties. Guess where the hospitals are.

[Blacksmith]

I'm not basing my opinion off Hollywood. I'll give an example. In colleges where a woman is raped and the investigation is handled internally by the college, often the women is put under pressure to let it go. Nobody encourages her to go to the ED to get a rape kit. They definitely discourage her from filing a police report. Even when they decide a wrong was committed, often the punishment is laughably light (e.g. academic suspension). They'd much prefer the woman didn't complain about it at all (which is what usually happens). There is a federal law that forces colleges to disclose crime statistics because in the past colleges went out of their way to minimize incidence of crime on their campuses because they are more interested in saving face than keeping people safe. If a rape victim wanted to maximize their chance of justice their best course of action would be to insist that the investigation conducted by regular law enforcement.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =124001493

Random examples of the scary group psychology:
1. Slave owners raping their slave then showing up to church with their wife and nobody saying a word
2. People ratting out their Jewish neighbors during WWII, Tutsi neighbors during the Rwandan genocide to save their own necks
3. Gang rape and hate crimes
4. Spousal, child and elder abuse and nobody intervening
5. People covering for sexual predators
6. Bar fights and other stupid altercations
7. Frat boy thrill seeking forms of stupidity
8. Pressuring people to assume group identity (e.g. religion, heterosexual, etc)
9. Social acceptability and/or looking the other way for all of the above

In a stressful situation I would expect the worst of people.

Sounds like a big city to me.

[duodecima]

Sorry if I misread any of this but you must really think small town people are the scum of the earth if you are equating small town life with date-raping frat boys, bar fighting, slave rapeing (really??!!), child beating, brainwashed, homophobic, hatemongering sexual preditors. I'm probably wrong, but it just sounds like you have a titanic sized chip on your shoulder about small towns and the people in them.

I would frame the take home message as, small town folks are no worse and no better than city folks (since there's been a bit of less dramatic bashing of city folk in this thread also.) Or, city folks are no worse and no better than country folks. Whichever way you care to put it.

If you really dig into just about any department's (big or small) past you will find someone who disgraced their office and the community.

Yep. The small town I moved out of had a former sheriff who'd just been convicted of bilking demented folks out of their money, he'd been threatening his own family members, (his lawyer had cocaine fall out of his brief case in court, I shit you not, it was Springer stuff but no TV cameras in sight...). Again - people are people, no better and no worse.

Now, you can see behavioral "sink" and breakdown more often in cities - but if us vs. them or cronyism has gone too far in a small place, the ability to avoid it or deal with it is much more limited. I think TR summed it up well :

Bad people are everywhere, good people are everywhere. Cities have infrastructure while the country has resources.

[RickOShea]

A scenario where living in a big city is better: anything involving mass casualties. Guess where the hospitals are.

I don't know....Seems like a lot of them can get just as overwhelmed by a slightly more active Friday night, as any suburban or rural hospital.

[duodecima]

A scenario where living in a big city is better: anything involving mass casualties. Guess where the hospitals are.

I don't know....Seems like a lot of them can get just as overwhelmed by a slightly more active Friday night, as any suburban or rural hospital.

Well, that depends on what "overwhelmed" means. If it's wait times? My experience has been that wait times are better in smaller, more rural hospitals most of the time. But that's the miserable-but-not-acutely-dying folks doing the waiting. Which sucks, but medically speaking isn't "overwhelming."

If it's a true mass casualty - go urban. If you've got 60 injured folks (10 critical, meaninging trying to die right fucking NOW, and 50 serious but easily stabilized), the urban/suburban area is going to soak that much better than one little 25 bed hospital in the middle of nowhere - in a little place, your transport times to the next nearest hospital could be anywhere from 20-70 minutes, you probably only have 2 local ambulances - you're going to be calling mutual aid from surrounding areas but it will take some time to get there. The urban/suburban area will have multiple hospitals and ambulance/rescue services to get people to those hospitals.

In rural-focused trauma courses, we still talk/teach triage - basically, when you have to choose make the most injured person the lowest priority, because 3 less injured people will die while you maybe save that one person, even if a bigger hospital could probably have saved them.

TL;DR - Tater's right. And it's a damn good thing Aurora is practically in Denver, as opposed to 2-3 hours away out in the plains or up in the mountains.

[RickOShea]

A scenario where living in a big city is better: anything involving mass casualties. Guess where the hospitals are.

I don't know....Seems like a lot of them can get just as overwhelmed by a slightly more active Friday night, as any suburban or rural hospital.

Well, that depends on what "overwhelmed" means. If it's wait times? My experience has been that wait times are better in smaller, more rural hospitals most of the time. But that's the miserable-but-not-acutely-dying folks doing the waiting. Which sucks, but medically speaking isn't "overwhelming."

If it's a true mass casualty - go urban. If you've got 60 injured folks (10 critical, meaninging trying to die right fucking NOW, and 50 serious but easily stabilized), the urban/suburban area is going to soak that much better than one little 25 bed hospital in the middle of nowhere - in a little place, your transport times to the next nearest hospital could be anywhere from 20-70 minutes, you probably only have 2 local ambulances - you're going to be calling mutual aid from surrounding areas but it will take some time to get there. The urban/suburban area will have multiple hospitals and ambulance/rescue services to get people to those hospitals.

In rural-focused trauma courses, we still talk/teach triage - basically, when you have to choose make the most injured person the lowest priority, because 3 less injured people will die while you maybe save that one person, even if a bigger hospital could probably have saved them.

TL;DR - Tater's right. And it's a damn good thing Aurora is practically in Denver, as opposed to 2-3 hours away out in the plains or up in the mountains.

Some copypasta:

In 2006, the Institute of Medicine (IOM) released a report titled “Hospital-Based Emergency Care: At the Breaking Point,” which identified weaknesses in the nation’s ability to respond to large-scale emergency situations, whether disease outbreaks such as pandemic influenza, naturally occurring disasters, or acts of terrorism (1). Over the last several decades, the role of emergency departments (EDs) has expanded from treating seriously ill and injured patients to providing urgent unscheduled care to patients unable to gain access to their providers in a timely fashion and to providing primary care to Medicaid beneficiaries and persons without insurance. EDs are now frequently overloaded. One of the most common factors related to ED crowding is the inability to transfer ED patients to an inpatient bed once a decision has been made to admit them (2). As the ED begins to “board” patients, the space, the staff, and the resources available to treat new patients are further reduced. A consequence of overcrowded EDs is ambulance diversion, in which EDs close their doors to incoming ambulances. The resulting treatment delay can be catastrophic for the patient. Approximately 500,000 ambulances are diverted annually in the United States (i.e., one ambulance diversion per minute) (3).

Although large EDs (annual visit volume greater than 50,000) in metropolitan statistical areas (MSAs) comprised 17.7 percent of EDs, they accounted for 43.8 percent of all ED visits. The implication is that small EDs (annual visit volume less than 20,000) may not experience crowding and, therefore, have little need for some of the techniques suggested in the IOM report. The IOM recommendations are particularly important for large, urban EDs, which experience higher visit volumes.

Also, I'm not saying that a bus crash that injures 50 people will be easier to handle in Scratch Ankle, AL than it would be in say, Atlanta, GA. But in a large scale SHTF scenario, does it only make sense that areas with larger populations will most likely have proportionally larger casualty numbers?