Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby elricfate » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:12 pm

Quietus wrote:
I don't particularly disagree with any of this.
My point is simply that it is irresponsible and completely off the deep end when people advocate going straight to lethal force. And I will always maintain that picking up a firearm, is deciding to use lethal force. If people didn't want to use lethal force, they would be more likely to go for a taser or a canister of bear spray. Hell, Take one of each, you have two hands after all.
Both methods work pretty damn well.



There's a point to be made here, if I am being forced into a fight, in the middle of the night, in my own home, I'm going for unequal force. I plan on winning the fight, not breaking even.

I plan on being able to say I survived the fight because I was armed rather than saying "Well, I had a less than lethal (or less lethal depending on what you're armed with) defensive tool and used it because I didn't want to kill the guy who was breaking into my house in the middle of the night with no regard for my safety or well being and with no thought as to his intentions (takes a deep breath) and with risk to my loved ones"

Having said that, just having a firearm in your hand during a particularly dangerous situation (anyone at your front door in the middle of the night, regardless of the reason why, poses a threat to your safety), does not mean you're forced to use it. Having it and not needing it is better than needing it and not having it, because you wanted to choose a less than lethal (or less lethal depending on what you're armed with) response.

Having good faith in all humanity went out of style in the '50s, no matter where you live, unless you absolutely know the person on the other end of the door. And even then, there's still the potential for them suddenly snapping.

You can argue until you're blue in the face that people are generally good and you shouldn't want to come to the door with a firearm, I still will in those circumstances.
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby Quietus » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:10 pm

elricfate wrote:"Cut for length"


So you don't think a taser to the chest will stop a bad guy? Or a few to the nuts if you are in a really bad mood?
I think you will find that reality does not agree with you on that.

And to be perfectly clear. I have NEVER stated any idiotic belief that people are generally good, or to be trusted. But only a scociopath decides that the only action is to kill people if there is a non lethal option, that does not put oneself in greater danger.

Not to mention the potential dangers to your loved ones.
Pretty much the only way a firearm can be a viable option, is if you keep it loaded and somewhere easily accessible. If you have children you have to consider the number of firearms accidents each year, due to exactly such circumstances.

What would you rather have your 5 year old find by accident. Your .45 or a taser/similar?
And don't give me that "I know what I'm doing, so it will never happen" BS. The numbers tell another story, and I can assure you that there are many parents of dead kids out there, that have thought that exact thing. They were wrong and so could anyone else be.
Last edited by Quietus on Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby bigmattdaddywack » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:17 pm

Tazer puts one self in greater danger. It only delivers one or two shots at a very limited range.
I guess we are a bunch of sociopaths.
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby ZombieGranny » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:17 pm

You taze me or my husband, we will most likely die.
Tazers are NOT harmless, please stop referring to them as such.
The maker of that weapon claims they are nonlethal, but check with your local LEOs or doctors; the fellas around here anyway do not agree.
Too many folks have been killed by them.
Electricity is dangerous.
Last edited by ZombieGranny on Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:18 pm

First of all, home invasion is very well defined in the US, and has been in common law-enforcement use for at least 20 years. The website I quote form lists the Michigan statute defining home invasion. A quick googling reveals more.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/h/home-invasion wrote:Home invasion is generally an unauthorized and forceful entry into a dwelling. It is a crime governed by state laws, which vary by state.


Now, storytime with Doc!

When I was a wee lad of not yet three, we lived in a suburban neighborhood with a police station nearby. There was a series of home invasions in which the perps would come up with some excuse to be banging on the front door (flat tire, looking for (previous owner or fake name) and when the door opened, Bruno the Slugger would deck them with a Louisville Slugger once or twice and the robbery would commence. This happened several times, and did not end until a very different robbery occurred at my house. Long story, but my old man was an FFL, and one of the customers that was referred to him by a fellow FFL as a "rough guy, but clean" was (unbeknownst to anyone) a member of the smash and grab crew, as well as the honest face and clean rap sheet for a smalltime gang in the area. The entered peacefully, then drew while his back was turned, shot both of my parents, and looted the house of tens of thousands of dollars in firearms.

ATF got involved. When the gentlemen were arrested, they admitted to all the crimes (already looking at multiple life sentences for the weapons charges alone) and said "We knew we couldn't bust up [Papa Doc] like that. That crazy motherfucker prolly got a AK in the couch and a big ol' pistol up in his jacket."

There were things that could have avoided the shooting, but the points I wanted to make were as follows:

1. Never open the door unless you know who it is and why they are there.
2. Never turn your back on a business acquaintance, especially if he's got an unfamiliar face with him.
3. You can have all the guns you could ever want, but if they're not in your hand or in easy reach, they are worthless.
4. There is no such thing as a safe neighborhood.

The thing about a home-invasion is that the invader is not burgling an empty house. Normally, the criminal knows the owner is home, and is willing to risk that in addition to the alarm system. Home invasions are some of the most violent and disgusting crime scenes, on par with some serial killers. Rape, torture, and the combination of the two while making family members watch are just a few examples of what a home-invader may attempt. We don't have Castle Laws because we cried out as a nation for the freedom to shoot every fucking mother fucker in the fucking head. We have them because too many times the legal repercussions for shooting the guy who was trying to kick in the front door with a crowbar in hand were worse than the legal repercussions for kicking in someone's front door screaming obscenities.

Lastly, no, I do not trust a taser, pepper spray, or an ASP baton to stop someone who is determined enough to get into my house and do FSM-knows-what that he has ignored the signs that I am home, and continuing to attempt to make entry. Meth/speed/cocaine/alcohol is a hell of a drug.
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby WY_Not » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:19 pm

Meh. Agree with it or not, your agreement is not required, nor wanted, in the course of my actions. You have your opinions and I'll have mine.

With a wife and three children in my home, it is one of my many responsibilities as a husband and father to ensure their safety. If someone is willing to break into my home, I will not waste much time trying to determine their intentions or feeling sorry for them and their stupid decisions in life. They've already made a pretty good statement of what their intentions are.

At 4am, there are damned few, if any, valid reasons to be banging on someone's door. At 4am, there are even fewer valid reasons to be breaking down a door to get into someone else's home. If someone doesn't want to get shot, then perhaps they shouldn't break into someone's home. I know that is a very novel idea for some, but they made their (bad) decision, let them bear the responsibility for their actions.

If you wish to enter my home, you will do so in a civilized manner. ie you will knock politely and wait to be invited in. If you insist on banging on the door and screaming and shouting, you will be dealt with as approriate. Yes, I will probably simply call LEOs and wait for them to deal with the problem. While waiting however, I will be armed and ready and I will do what I can, safely, to defuse the situation. If you insist on escalating the encounter by bypassing the locks through force or picking, you will be dealt with as appropriate. Yes, that probably means doing whatever is necessary to end the threat. At all times during this hypothetical situation, you are the one escalating the situation, I'm simply standing ready to end the threat to my wife and children in an efficient manner.

As for the decision to use lethal force over "less-than-lethal" options... It is not a decision of lethal vs "less-than-lethal". It is a decision to use what will end the threat to my wife and children in the most effective and efficient manner. Taser will not be effective against more than one opponant. That canister of bear-spray while it might be effective against multiple opponants, it may not be effective at all against them. In addition, depending on wind or in a small, enclosed space, it might just be more effective against YOU rather than your opponant.

If someone's life and the life of their family means so little to them that they are unwilling to defend it by any means necessary, then they have my pity and my scorn. As for me, my life and the life of my family is soooo precious to me that yes, I am willing to protect it by any means necessary.

If someone's life means so little to them that they are willing to risk it to break into someone else's home, then they have my pity and my scorn. If someone's life means so little to them that they are willing to impair their judgement (through the use of drugs or alcohol) to the point where they are capable of making such a horrible decision as breaking into someone else's home, then they have my pity and they have my scorn. They are responsible for their own actions. If those actions get them killed, they made their choice.

As for blind dismissals of these alleged peer-reviewed articles... They are just that, alleged. Until citations are given yes they will be dismissed out of hand. And no, I won't do your homework for you and go look for them. You want to bring them to the discussion, you bring the citations with you.

Quietus wrote:I don't particularly disagree with any of this.
My point is simply that it is irresponsible and completely off the deep end when people advocate going straight to lethal force. And I will always maintain that picking up a firearm, is deciding to use lethal force. If people didn't want to use lethal force, they would be more likely to go for a taser or a canister of bear spray. Hell, Take one of each, you have two hands after all.
Both methods work pretty damn well.
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby bigmattdaddywack » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:20 pm

Doc Torr wrote:First of all, home invasion is very well defined in the US, and has been in common law-enforcement use for at least 20 years. The website I quote form lists the Michigan statute defining home invasion. A quick googling reveals more.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/h/home-invasion wrote:Home invasion is generally an unauthorized and forceful entry into a dwelling. It is a crime governed by state laws, which vary by state.


Now, storytime with Doc!

When I was a wee lad of not yet three, we lived in a suburban neighborhood with a police station nearby. There was a series of home invasions in which the perps would come up with some excuse to be banging on the front door (flat tire, looking for (previous owner or fake name) and when the door opened, Bruno the Slugger would deck them with a Louisville Slugger once or twice and the robbery would commence. This happened several times, and did not end until a very different robbery occurred at my house. Long story, but my old man was an FFL, and one of the customers that was referred to him by a fellow FFL as a "rough guy, but clean" was (unbeknownst to anyone) a member of the smash and grab crew, as well as the honest face and clean rap sheet for a smalltime gang in the area. The entered peacefully, then drew while his back was turned, shot both of my parents, and looted the house of tens of thousands of dollars in firearms.

ATF got involved. When the gentlemen were arrested, they admitted to all the crimes (already looking at multiple life sentences for the weapons charges alone) and said "We knew we couldn't bust up [Papa Doc] like that. That crazy motherfucker prolly got a AK in the couch and a big ol' pistol up in his jacket."

There were things that could have avoided the shooting, but the points I wanted to make were as follows:

1. Never open the door unless you know who it is and why they are there.
2. Never turn your back on a business acquaintance, especially if he's got an unfamiliar face with him.
3. You can have all the guns you could ever want, but if they're not in your hand or in easy reach, they are worthless.
4. There is no such thing as a safe neighborhood.

The thing about a home-invasion is that the invader is not burgling an empty house. Normally, the criminal knows the owner is home, and is willing to risk that in addition to the alarm system. Home invasions are some of the most violent and disgusting crime scenes, on par with some serial killers. Rape, torture, and the combination of the two while making family members watch are just a few examples of what a home-invader may attempt. We don't have Castle Laws because we cried out as a nation for the freedom to shoot every fucking mother fucker in the fucking head. We have them because too many times the legal repercussions for shooting the guy who was trying to kick in the front door with a crowbar in hand were worse than the legal repercussions for kicking in someone's front door screaming obscenities.

Lastly, no, I do not trust a taser, pepper spray, or an ASP baton to stop someone who is determined enough to get into my house and do FSM-knows-what that he has ignored the signs that I am home, and continuing to attempt to make entry. Meth/speed/cocaine/alcohol is a hell of a drug.


nuff said
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby elricfate » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:21 pm

Quietus wrote:
elricfate wrote:"Cut for length"


So you don't think a taser to the chest will stop a bad guy? Or a few to the nuts if you are in a really bad mood?
I think you will find that reality does not agree with you on that.

And to be perfectly clear. I have NEVER stated any idiotic belief that people are generally good, or to be trusted. But only a scociopath decides that the only action is to kill people if there is a non lethal option, that does not put oneself in greater danger.


I was cut for length, imagine that.

Back to the topic at hand, I've used a taser on someone and had one used on me. I've also been struck in hand to hand in nerve clusters and muscles, I've been pepper sprayed with police issued pepper spray --- and I can tell you that once that taser ride ends, you can be back up or pull it away. Once you're hit with pepper spray, you can fight through it. And once you've been kicked in the nuts the adrenaline drops into your blood for at least long enough to brutally murder the person who did it to you.

I'm not the voice of "maybe", I'm the voice of "been there, done that" for the betterment of my training and protecting other citizens.

And I'm gonna say this, but please don't take offense, because this doesn't only relate to you being from Denmark, but anyone being from a quiet town, or small town in the country, or anywhere else. Your AO dictates your levels of force. Period.

You can believe what you want about anything you want, it's a free country (as far as I know you're free in your country as I am in mine and no thought police will attack you), but you're going to have to realize that you're possibly one of the very few voices of dissent on this topic. And if it works for you, congratulations, I wish it worked for everyone. But it doesn't, and it never will.

So while I applaud your staunch beliefs, and even go so far as to congratulate you on your place in the world in believing that you can stop things with less than deadly force (the things I described) -- I simply choose to disbelieve your version of reality.

Good day. :mrgreen:


Edit to add:

This is what I keep seeing in this thread

Last edited by elricfate on Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby WY_Not » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:32 pm

There is no risk of my children finding my firearms by accident. They know exactly where they are and how to get to them. Hell, the two oldest (15 and 13) each own a couple of firearms of their own. That is why my children have all been taught the proper and safe handling of firearms. They know full well what they are capable of. They know full well what the consequences of their misuse can entail. They know full well that if they touch my fireams and survive, I will kill them. They also know that I will drop ANYTHING I am doing to get one of my firearms out and show it to them, let them handle it, or let them fire it.

Like anything else that is potentially dangerous, they need to be taught the proper and safe handling of it. Rather than hide the object away in the closet, the taboo and temptation needs to be removed from the object. Why risk the wrath of Dad coming down on their heads when they can simply ask and know they will be allowed to see/handle/use the object?

Ad for your "I know what I'm doing, so it will never happen" BS comment. You are right. It is not a matter of me knowing what I'm doing. It is a matter of teaching your children so that they will know what they are doing. You know, like teaching them how to drive, how to use a fire extinguisher, how to perform first aid, how to swim.

Quietus wrote:What would you rather have your 5 year old find by accident. Your .45 or a taser/similar?
And don't give me that "I know what I'm doing, so it will never happen" BS.
Last edited by WY_Not on Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby whisk.e.rebellion » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:34 pm



Just sayin'
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby Quietus » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:56 pm

Right.. I give up.

Let me know if you ever wan't to hear from real world experience with these things.
Having actually experienced this kind of thing a few times, first hand, teaches you more than any amount of hypothetical internet "macho-ness" ever will.
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby bigmattdaddywack » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:57 pm

whisk.e.rebellion wrote:

Just sayin'

Fucking AWESOME!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby ZombieGranny » Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:03 pm

Quietus wrote:Right.. I give up.

Let me know if you ever wan't to hear from real world experience with these things.
Having actually experienced this kind of thing a few times, first hand, teaches you more than any amount of hypothetical internet "macho-ness" ever will.

What you are not realizing is many here HAVE "real world experience with these things."
There are many now and former military & LEO personnel here.

Personally - I DO know a tazer is likely to kill me or my husband - our doctors TOLD us so.
For us, I'd rather you shoot - we'd have a better chance to live, depending on where the bullet goes.
In my day, we didn't have virtual reality.
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby crypto » Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:07 pm

Ive been drive-stunned with a taser before but thats not the same thing as getting stuck with the probes and zapped.


Either way though, I dont think a taser is a solution for a home invasion / attempted home invasion.

If I start tasing him I have to continue to do it until the cops arrive, or risk him getting up and fucking me up when I stop.

I'd rather not have that option on the table. The bad guy either needs to turn tail, or be incapacitated until the police and EMS arrive on-scene, IMO.
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby elricfate » Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:10 pm

Quietus wrote:Right.. I give up.

Let me know if you ever wan't to hear from real world experience with these things.
Having actually experienced this kind of thing a few times, first hand, teaches you more than any amount of hypothetical internet "macho-ness" ever will.


You have no idea who I am or what I have done. But I can tell you, from real world experience, that you're wrong.

There, do you feel better now? Good. Cause I feel dirty. I didn't want to tell you you were wrong, I wanted you to feel like I was being fair and giving you a well thought out response, but all you do is argue your conjectures without any idea what you're arguing about.

Good day.
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby WY_Not » Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:13 pm

So does that mean we don't get to peruse those alleged peer-reviewed articles? :wink:

Quietus wrote:Right.. I give up.

Let me know if you ever wan't to hear from real world experience with these things.
Having actually experienced this kind of thing a few times, first hand, teaches you more than any amount of hypothetical internet "macho-ness" ever will.
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby Braxton » Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:20 pm

WY_Not wrote:So does that mean we don't get to peruse those alleged peer-reviewed articles? :wink:

Quietus wrote:Right.. I give up.

Let me know if you ever wan't to hear from real world experience with these things.
Having actually experienced this kind of thing a few times, first hand, teaches you more than any amount of hypothetical internet "macho-ness" ever will.



I would like to look at those myself.

I would also like to hear your first hand experiences.
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby jor-el » Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:24 pm

Quietus wrote:
elricfate wrote:"Cut for length"


So you don't think a taser to the chest will stop a bad guy? Or a few to the nuts if you are in a really bad mood?
I think you will find that reality does not agree with you on that.

And to be perfectly clear. I have NEVER stated any idiotic belief that people are generally good, or to be trusted. But only a scociopath decides that the only action is to kill people if there is a non lethal option, that does not put oneself in greater danger.

Not to mention the potential dangers to your loved ones.
Pretty much the only way a firearm can be a viable option, is if you keep it loaded and somewhere easily accessible. If you have children you have to consider the number of firearms accidents each year, due to exactly such circumstances.

What would you rather have your 5 year old find by accident. Your .45 or a taser/similar?
And don't give me that "I know what I'm doing, so it will never happen" BS. The numbers tell another story, and I can assure you that there are many parents of dead kids out there, that have thought that exact thing. They were wrong and so could anyone else be.


There is a tiny percentage of people that are NOT incapacitated by a taser. There are also many scenarios where a hostile is wearing sufficiently heavy clothing that the taser darts fail to reach skin. I imagine that to be the case right now in most of the CONUS as well as in your land of Denmark.

A kick to the nuts only works if you land the kick. Good luck trying that on three or four invaders. And it will be three or four. Nearly all of the home invasion incidents in the city involved at least that many entering the house/apartment, with at least one or more in a getaway car nearby.

Are you trying to get citizens to follow a FORCE LADDER? LEOs are forced to use such a methodology as prescribed by the governments that authorize them. Citizens are not really so restricted as they don't get trained daily/monthly/quarterly/annually to do so.
THERE IS NO TRUE NON-LETHAL FORCE IN THIS WORLD. Every force method has a legally significant number of cases that have caused death. Enough that people can be held liable for it.

I won't even bring up how many locales Tasers are illegal in like NYC.

Sad to say, but accidental deaths of children by guns is a training issue. The vast majority of parents just tell their kids to live in mortal fear of the gun, and forbid them to touch it, or even look at it.
All that does is make it forbidden fruit, much like The Apple. We all know how well that turned out.
Careful education of what a firearm is, and what it can do, would be a better way.

Where should the gun be? Mine, as I type, is in a secure holster. On my belt. On me. NOT in a box, not in a safe. I secure my gun. I have others, and they are unloaded in the safe. Mrs. El has hers in the safe, as she does not have the 50 state permit I do.

We have a plan as to possible home invasions. 911 figures prominently in that. As a LEO, many of our homes are on a list that gets special attention. Last week someone pulled a burg/home invasion on a LEO's mom's home. It probably made the list because the LEO lived at mom's in his salad days. Our CO called in ESU, K9 and had Aviation do a thermal scan for a three block radius. In the past, we've had criminals pull retaliatory home invasions on LEO homes, when they were able to trace an officer's name back to an address.

Perhaps, Quietus, you should not apply Denmark's situation and climate to the CONUS. It simply does not properly compare and to say otherwise is disingenuous at least, perhaps closer to ignant.
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby crypto » Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:43 pm

jor-el wrote:
We have a plan as to possible home invasions. 911 figures prominently in that. As a LEO, many of our homes are on a list that gets special attention..


Where would the public go to review this list?
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby jor-el » Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:55 pm

crypto wrote:
jor-el wrote:
We have a plan as to possible home invasions. 911 figures prominently in that. As a LEO, many of our homes are on a list that gets special attention..


Where would the public go to review this list?


Higher than my pay grade. You do realize mine is the department with Garcia advisors, and gets criticized by the FBI for using Garcia tactics and stragedies?
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby crypto » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:07 pm

No, I didnt realize that. I just wanted to know who to send the FOIA request to within the department. Generally, I disapprove of govt lists of private people.
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby jor-el » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:14 pm

crypto wrote:No, I didnt realize that. I just wanted to know who to send the FOIA request to within the department. Generally, I disapprove of govt lists of private people.


Maybe I wasn't clear about it. NYPD keeps a list of its employees and pertinent info, like their home addresses.
If you worked for McDonald's, they would have a record of your home address as a condition of employment.
Normally I would agree with you, but in this case its just due diligence.
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby crypto » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:18 pm

I'm terribly sorry, I was thinking you mean NYPD kept a list, I see now you're talking about the FBIs dog-shooting list. :(


Or, do you mean NYPD has it's own dog-shooting list?
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Re: Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

Postby whisk.e.rebellion » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:23 pm

jor-el wrote:We have a plan as to possible home invasions. 911 figures prominently in that. As a LEO, many of our homes are on a list that gets special attention.



jor-el wrote:NYPD keeps a list of its employees and pertinent info, like their home addresses.
If you worked for McDonald's, they would have a record of your home address as a condition of employment.


Yeah, but I think the point about the list (and the main difference) is that as a McDonald's employee, when I call 911, Mayor McCheese doesn't dispatch Officer Big Mac, Ronald, Grimace, Birdie, and the Fry Kids to put the hurt on Hamburglar and Captain Crook :wink:
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