Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

[chills1994]

about the Ronald McDonald thing....I was laughing so hard my sides hurt.

I think our OP did alright.

Me? Personally? I have been threatened and "battered" by an X family member. So everyone else who is a "good guy" or "friend" knows to call me first before coming over. Anyone who comes to the door unannounced is automatically placed into the "foe" category until proven otherwise. I come to the door with a gun/guns in my hand/hands.

I have been attacked once. I will not be attacked again, especially in my own "home".

If I were to have somebody at the door knocking at 4AM, I am picking up a gun/guns and a cellphone and putting it on speaker as I dial 911. I look at it this way...if all of a sudden the door gets kicked open, the recorders at the dispatch should pick that up, along with me shouting to get the fuck out, maybe me calling out a name, and most likely followed with the sound of shots fired.

There is a slight possibility that the audio tape could be used against me. Conversely, if I were to be "best'ed", and ended up murdered in my own home, at least the audio could be used to track down my murderer.

[squinty]

I don't freak out too much over a knock. I am more careful these days to figure out who or what's outside before opening the door. There's always a handgun present, because I wear it. And like you and others, my friends/family/circle of people I would expect to be coming around tend to call first, and in fact the cell phone has sort of replaced the doorbell in my AO - people stand at my door or park in my driveway and call to let me know they are out there instead of knocking more often than not.

What does freak me out, and make me go the 911 route, is a rattling doorknob, scraping sound against lock, person trying one door, then another, then testing windows, person who doesn't answer when I give a "who dere?" shout or a person who knocks but stands out of view of the peephole in my door.

I also occasionally, if my spidey sense tingles, let solicitors and proselytizers and strangers stand there for a few extra minutes to see what they do. My city had a rash of burglaries - not home invasions, just burglaries - by a group that would go from house to house offering to do yard work, home repairs or lawn services. They'd do the work if someone took them up on it - and do it reasonably well - but use the opportunity to case the house and come back later. If nobody answered, they'd go to a back door or window out of view of the street and gain entrance, and rob the place. This never happened at 4 AM, it always happened during school/business hours.

[chills1994]

one of the phone threats I got from this X, X family member was that he and his buddies were going to come over and kick my ass. It sounded to me like they were at the bar trying to fill themselves with enough liquid courage to do just that. Telling him that I was recording the conversation and was going to turn the tape over to the police before he and his friends could get to my house put a squelch to his plans. And of course I had to document everything and file a police report.

Long story short, I don't put anything past the guy or his so called "friends".

Not necessarily in my poe dunk town, but in other places near here, the m.o. has been to send somebody around with the whole, "I am trying to work my way through college selling magazines door to door" schtick so that they can case your place.

[tedbeau]

"Cut for length"

So you don't think a taser to the chest will stop a bad guy? Or a few to the nuts if you are in a really bad mood? I think you will find that reality does not agree with you on that.

And to be perfectly clear. I have NEVER stated any idiotic belief that people are generally good, or to be trusted. But only a scociopath decides that the only action is to kill people if there is a non lethal option, that does not put oneself in greater danger.Not to mention the potential dangers to your loved ones.
Pretty much the only way a firearm can be a viable option, is if you keep it loaded and somewhere easily accessible. If you have children you have to consider the number of firearms accidents each year, due to exactly such circumstances.

What would you rather have your 5 year old find by accident. Your .45 or a taser/similar?
And don't give me that "I know what I'm doing, so it will never happen" BS. The numbers tell another story, and I can assure you that there are many parents of dead kids out there, that have thought that exact thing. They were wrong and so could anyone else be.

Ok, to be clear, in a previous post you stated that pepper spray could be used as a non-lethal choice. There are many documented cases where people, both good and bad were hit full face with pepper spray and continued to fight, especially if they are high or enraged. Secondly the original post stated that there were TWO people at the door.

Does your taser have two sets of probes at the ready without needing to be reloaded? Does it maintain the electrical charge and control to multiple targerts at the same time?

Are you 100% sure you want to bet your hand to hand skills against two attackers at once, keeping in mind that one of them could keep you occupied long enough for the other to push past you and slash your wifes throat in the next room.

The laws in many states treat any home invasion as a direct and deadly threat. The reason this is done is because it most often is, and deadly threat allows deadly reactionary response. As the saying goes, "If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[pirro]

In my country we call the cops and have the weapon ready. If the continue in their effort to get in you shoot.

Saludos.

[squinty]

one of the phone threats I got from this X, X family member was that he and his buddies were going to come over and kick my ass. It sounded to me like they were at the bar trying to fill themselves with enough liquid courage to do just that. Telling him that I was recording the conversation and was going to turn the tape over to the police before he and his friends could get to my house put a squelch to his plans. And of course I had to document everything and file a police report.

Long story short, I don't put anything past the guy or his so called "friends".

Not necessarily in my poe dunk town, but in other places near here, the m.o. has been to send somebody around with the whole, "I am trying to work my way through college selling magazines door to door" schtick so that they can case your place.

Uncanny. I think we know the same guy. Or else, less uncanny but scarier, he's just a common type and there are a lot like him loose in the world.

[JFlagg]

I would have dialed 911 or had the wife dial 911, but keep all the lights off and stayed quiet. My reasoning is this, if I ask who it is, they know someone is there and may leave. If I stay quiet and they think no one is home, they take their time if they are B&Eing, hopefully the cops arrive in time to catch them in the act... If not, I am in the room waiting if/when the door opens... Then I have the element of suprise on my side as they catch sight of either the barrel of my 12 guage or the barrel of my XD40. Thats one thing I learned in Iraq, the element of suprise is your best weapon...

I live in South STL in a pretty shady 'hood and this situation it unfortunately too common. Personally, I agree with Ted Nugent and his " I don't like repeat offenders, I like dead offenders" ideology. The way I look at it, even if unarmed, an intruder becomes a threat the second they enter my house. Because, by then I am the last line of defense for my 3 yo. old daughter and pregnant wife(and 4 dogs who might make a lot of noise, but I highly doubt they would get physical with an intruder, lol). In StL, no jury would convict me for protecting my family inside my house.

My only objection to this is, why don't you want them to leave? I agree that it's better to bunker up and let the threat come to you, if they're determined to do so. But if you're worried about your family's safety, wouldn't you prefer that the guys leave, rather than come in? I could understand you being worried that, if they know you're home, they'll continue coming in but come in forewarned. But you stated that you wouldn't want them to leave, that you'd rather they came in and met you with your gun. Wouldn't that put your family at greater risk, if they came in and you had to engage them?

If the whole point of the exercise is to let them spend as much time as possible screwing around with locks and stuff so that they might be apprehended (and I'd certainly want to see them caught and prosecuted, just as much as you would!) consider that most deliberate B&E guys don't spend much time entering the home. It only takes a second or two to jimmy a lock with a crowbar, kick in a door or break a window. The police are very unlikely to get there in time, so you're stuck having a firefight in your living room. If they are armed, or get past you, then your family becomes the backstop for their, or your, fired rounds.

Might I suggest that a cheap set of webcam style security cameras might be the best of both worlds? You yell "WTF!" and they scram (if they don't, then they are more dangerous than "mere" burglars.) - so no bullets fly around your house, but the camera may still have caught them in the act sufficiently to get them charged. I'm not suggesting cameras as an alternative to firearms, but as a useful adjunct.

After going back and rereading what I typed and comparing it to your response, I realized that I failed to mention that even if I stayed quiet my dogs probably never would. And in my opinion a few big dogs barking has the same message as me saying "who's there?" or "go away"... So if they can defeat my deadbolted, locked and safety chained front door or more likely trying my deadbolted, locked and barrackaded back door I'll have plenty of warning and time to prepare for defense. I've kicked a few doors in my day and it would take a SWAT or SEAL team to breach them efficently

And as far as the security cameras, I've actually been looking into getting a set...

[chills1994]

one of the phone threats I got from this X, X family member was that he and his buddies were going to come over and kick my ass. It sounded to me like they were at the bar trying to fill themselves with enough liquid courage to do just that. Telling him that I was recording the conversation and was going to turn the tape over to the police before he and his friends could get to my house put a squelch to his plans. And of course I had to document everything and file a police report.

Long story short, I don't put anything past the guy or his so called "friends".

Not necessarily in my poe dunk town, but in other places near here, the m.o. has been to send somebody around with the whole, "I am trying to work my way through college selling magazines door to door" schtick so that they can case your place.

Uncanny. I think we know the same guy. Or else, less uncanny but scarier, he's just a common type and there are a lot like him loose in the world.

Yeah, bullies are everywhere.

I stood up to him, and POOF! I haven't heard a peep out of him or that side of the family since the summer of 2007. good freakin' riddance. funny, that's how bullies roll.

[bigmattdaddywack]

In my country we call the cops and have the weapon ready. If the continue in their effort to get in you shoot.

Saludos.

I always liked Argentina. Seriously.
I also want some dogos.

[GH0STSHAD0W]

I personally have been in this situation several times during my month long stay in vegas. multiple people knocked on the door each time, and each time ot was well after midnight (2am, 4am, 330am and 130am respectively).

Both me and my mom's (who lived with me at the time) response was to arm ourselves (my kukri and cellphone for me and mini shovel for her) and take positions near the door and wait to see if they attempted to enter (she had the habbit of yelling "who's there?". Not sure if that worked as a deterrent or not)

[Kutter_0311]

Vegas has seen an increase in violent home attacks, and violent crime in general, over recent years. Someone suggested it was related to CA's "three strike" system, as violent offenders would flee to other nearby states after two convictions.

One of my old sargent's was killed in Vegas stopping an attempted home invasion a year or two ago. He had returned home in civies after his shift, and several armed assailants followed him into his garage. He did manage to shoot one in the balls, which I found rather ironic...

[GH0STSHAD0W]

Vegas has seen an increase in violent home attacks

In 15 years spent living in new jersey, 4 1/2 in california nobody ever knocked on the door of my house unless the was a reason (eg: sister coming back from a party), but in a month in vegas 4 times groups were knocking on my door well after midnight... and i lived in a gated community (wtf?)

[g211]

. . . And I will always maintain that picking up a firearm, is deciding to use lethal force.

That's equivalent to saying that anyone who fastens his seat belt when he gets in a car is deciding to cause a car wreck. It's a completely neurotic viewpoint -- it falls to even the most trivial application of actual thought or reason.

Picking up a firearm is simply giving me the option to decide whether or not I will use lethal force, after I determine what the situation is. That's all.

[Kutter_0311]

. . . And I will always maintain that picking up a firearm, is deciding to use lethal force.

Picking up a firearm is simply giving me the option to decide whether or not I will use lethal force, after I determine what the situation is. That's all.

I think ^^THAT^^ is how you meant to quote that, as I never said it...

I know the code takes a bit to get the hang of, it took me for-damn-ever to understand that stuff.

[squinty]

I still maintain that there is a big difference between a knock at an odd hour (which may or may not be something to worry about) and a prolonged and deliberate attempt to gain entrance to your locked house. I've had weird knocks in the middle of the night that were genuine emergencies - esp. back before cell phones were as ubiquitous as they are now.

I also had a friend (we shared a house, but I was away that night) answer a knock at the door at an odd hour. He opened the door because the skinny woman knocking claimed she had a life and death emergency need to use the phone (this was in 1989, cell phones were still uncommon.)

So he let her in. She made three separate calls in rapid succession, each time briefly interrogating whoever answered, asking about some dude's whereabouts. She got more worked up and angry each time she failed to get in contact with whoever the hell she was trying to reach. Clearly her emergency was not of the "I need an ambulance/police/tow truck" variety, but rather a more personal sort of crisis.

As she was dialing the fourth number my friend got impatient and said "You know what, that's enough I need to go back to bed. Please get out of my house."

So she beat him to the floor with the phone receiver then ran out of the house. My friend does not know who the sumdude was, whether she was searching for an errant boyfriend or husband, trying to locate her crack dealer, or what. He's just sorry he let her into the house.

Quietus is right that just a knock or sound, or even possibly a person's mere presence in your home, doesn't preclude the need to identify your target and do a reasonable threat assessment. He's just wrong when he asserts that by picking up a gun you've decided not to do those things, or that they are impossible to do in the heat of the moment. He's wrong, and he slanders gun owners by portraying us as "sociopathic" nut cases ready to shoot first and ask questions later. And while there are innocuous or nonthreatening reasons a person might trespass into your home, such circumstances are rare.

[Kutter_0311]

Very true.

I prefer to ask questions with my finger straight and off the trigger.

Anyone claiming an emergency may gladly use my phone. Anyone in need of shelter may gladly enter my home. No questions asked.

BUT, as the safety of my wife and children are more important to me than a stranger's opinion, I reserve the right to hold my Glock.

[pirro]

Very true.

I prefer to ask questions with my finger straight and off the trigger.

Anyone claiming an emergency may gladly use my phone. Anyone in need of shelter may gladly enter my home. No questions asked.

BUT, as the safety of my wife and children are more important to me than a stranger's opinion, I reserve the right to hold my Glock.

You wouldn't last 2 seconds in argentina. If some one need help and is screaming at your door, first you ask what happen from the other side of the door, if it is something big you call the police and let them do their job. If some one is traying to hurt that person. You through a window you warn the one that s looking for trouble. if he continue you shoot to the air if he or she dont stop then you open fire.
A lot of people in my country did learn the hard way that you dont open the door at 3:00 am in the morning. Unless its family or a good neighbor.

Saludos.

[airballrad]

You wouldn't last 2 seconds in argentina. *snip* A lot of people in my country did learn the hard way that you dont open the door at 3:00 am in the morning.

Location matters. People who live in the rural USA are generally going to be more casual about this sort of thing. People living in urban areas are more likely to follow your sequence of events.

[Kutter_0311]

Yup. I live in a pretty decent part of town these days. I got tired of going to check out stuff my wife thinks she heard @ 0330 with an AK47.

I'm fairly certain any issue I encounter here only rates a G35...

[squinty]

OK, a personal (sort of) anecdote that relates to this thread, as well as this other one here:
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=86597

I have a friend named Bill* who lives with a much younger girlfriend named Christine.** Christine has gone back to college, Bill pays the bills, they live in a big rattly neo-victorian house with a finished basement - has it's own bedroom, bath and kitchenette, but no separate entrance. Christine has a classmate/friend named Jane*** who lives on campus, but needed a place to stay during spring break. Christine told her she could stay in the basement over break, then asked Bill if he'd be ok with it. After hemming and hawing Bill agreed. He decided maybe they could persuade Jane to move in permanently until she graduated - she'd save money vs. paying for room and board on campus, wouldn't have to move out every break, she and Christine could carpool, and Bill & Christine would have some help paying the mortgage until such time as she graduates and starts working again.

Jane was supposed to move in Saturday morning.

Wednesday night, around 2 in the morning, Bill and Christine get rudely awakened by the sound of a door creaking open and very distinct, heavy footsteps in the kitchen. Both freak out: Christine dials 911 and Bill loads up his Browning buckmark (it's all the gun he's got) and makes sure the bedroom door is locked. And they wait. The footsteps come down the hall, Bill white knuckles the Browning and holds it in low ready (or maybe he points it at the door. He equivocates about where, exactly, he pointed the pistol.) and is about to say (he says) "Who's there!" or "Identify yourself!" or otherwise challenge the intruder.
But then they hear the door to the basement open, and the bump bump bump of footsteps going downstairs.

So Bill calls out: "JANE?"
Jane calls back "Oh, hi, I didn't know you guys were still awake!"



Jane explains herself: break actually started Monday. She had been staying with another friend, with plans to move out Friday night/Saturday morning, but that friend got angry and kicked her out abruptly Wednesday night, in the middle of the night. Jane declined to discuss what the fight was about or why the friend asked her to leave so suddenly. Having no place else to go, Jane brought her stuff over to Bill and Christine's place a few days early, and refrained from calling first or knocking on the door because she didn't want to "be rude" by disturbing them.

Bill sternly admonishes Jane that he nearly shot her, and they explain the situation to the police who show up anyway, despite Christine's attempts to reassure the 911 dispatcher that things are ok. (Actually, I'm glad the police came to the house anyway. Don't see what other choice they had.)

Jane is livid that Bill contemplated shooting her, and calls him paranoid. Bill calls Jane inconsiderate and reckless for coming in unannounced in the middle of the night. Jane counters that Bill knew she was coming over. Bill responds that no, he did not expect her at 2 AM Wednesday night, he expected her Saturday morning. Jane says "Well am I not welcome anymore?" Bill says "of course you're welcome you were just rude not to call first." Jane replies that Bill isn't her dad and she shouldn't have to check in with him or announce her comings and goings, and that she should be able to come and go without being afraid of getting shot. The argument sort of fizzles out after awhile. Any plans about subletting the basement to Jane are shot to hell though.

IMO Jane was pretty thoughtless in that situation. I can see how people on either side of the gun//no gun debate could use this anecdote to bolster their arguments. The "it's sociopathic to arm yourself first" crowd could rightly describe it as a close call where someone could easily have been shot - and mere thoughtlessness does not merit getting shot. The "it's only prudent to arm yourself" crowd could point to the situation as an example of the gun owner being responsible and properly assessing the threat instead of blindly or reflexively shooting, and they'd be right as well.

Bill had a hard time articulating just how scary the situation was for him and for Christine. Jane didn't understand, and it took a good deal of explaining to make her understand, that it was scary for them to hear someone prowling around the house when noone else was supposed to be there. Bill and Christine promised her that they'd never get upset at her for calling first or announcing herself, even if she came in very late.

Bill's ultimate response to the situation was to go shopping for a nice pump shotgun (I'm trying to talk him out of the PGO pump gun that he wants) and an accessory to mount a light on it. This might seem paranoid to the "don't arm" crowd, seeing as there was never an actual threat. But I believe that Bill and Christine had every reason to be apprehensive, at least until they found out who was there. The experience of listening to footsteps come down the hall towards their bedroom door, and wondering who was there with what intent, would be frightening to any reasonable person.

* no it isn't
**not her real name either
***honest, the story is true I'm just making up different names.

[Tater Raider]

My state has very strong Castle Doctrine laws. Trespassing outside is grounds to confront the intruder with a visible display of weapons (i.e It is not brandishing to have a drawn weapon when confronting a trespasser). Being on a front porch is trespassing. The act of unauthorized intruding into a locked house is lawful grounds for lethal force in my state (assuming you are inside the house).

That's it, I'm moving down south.

[duodecima]

OK, a personal (sort of) anecdote that relates to this thread, as well as this other one here:
long story removed for brevity, see above

Y'know, all the "pro-gun" folks out there wouldn't think I qualify as "pro-gun" but holy snot,"Jane" seems to be the unreasonable person in this story all the way 'round. She does illustrate the need for target ID (which Bill was working on, by calling out), since some of our friends may also be idiots and nobody deserves the fallout from that. That would have scared ME to death, and I'm really glad 911 is required to send to send the cops no matter what.

[squinty]

OK, a personal (sort of) anecdote that relates to this thread, as well as this other one here:
long story removed for brevity, see above

Y'know, all the "pro-gun" folks out there wouldn't think I qualify as "pro-gun" but holy snot,"Jane" seems to be the unreasonable person in this story all the way 'round. She does illustrate the need for target ID (which Bill was working on, by calling out), since some of our friends may also be idiots and nobody deserves the fallout from that. That would have scared ME to death, and I'm really glad 911 is required to send to send the cops no matter what.

Well, Jane is the sort of person people feel the need to cast out of their homes in the middle of a weeknight, after all. Wonder how she pissed that person off?

I am squarely in the pro-gun camp, but I freely admit that accidents and tragedies can and do happen, and that one nearly happened in my friends' house. I feel like Bill deserves credit for being responsible enough to appropriately assess the threat, despite his panic, but it was still a close call. I don't blame him for feeling a bit panicky, I would have too.

He did not have the gun ready. He had to grope around for a magazine and insert it, and load the pistol, and only then did he consider calling out. I think calling out sooner - before Jane got down the hall - would have been more prudent, but I think (speculative on my part) that he was afraid to give away his (and his GF's) location until such time as he had some sort of defensive tool ready to use. Then he had to get his Adam's apple out of his mouth. By which time Jane had come all the way down the hall and turned to open the basement door - which is in the same hallway iirc as the bedroom door.

[Anianna]

Re the OP: Being female, I would have had no problem calling the cops because a couple of guys were on my front porch being loud at that hour. They don't belong there and the threat level has raised just one step below criminal activity. That's enough for me to make the call. That way, if they didn't break in, the cops know to be on the look out if they think it's a serious enough situation and if they do break in I know the cops are on their way and I can take whatever action I need to defend myself and my family instead of trying to call 911 once the situation becomes desperate.

That said, I had an incident somewhat similar to this. We live in a remote rural area and while our house can be seen from the road, the road doesn't get much traffic and visitors are very unusual. At about 6:30 one morning, about 15 minutes before me and the kids were to get up to get them ready for school and after my husband had left for work, a truck drives up my driveway and starts blaring the horn repeatedly. There's a kid, maybe 13, in the passenger seat reaching over to the horn and a man on my porch directing the kid to keep honking. Granted, I do not have a doorbell, but there is a freakin' door there to knock on.

At this point, I have our German Shepherd on my heals and my gun in my hand ready to go but not readily visible to the man on my porch. I had given my phone to my kid with directions to call 911 if ANYTHING at all happened. I also directed all of my children to the one bedroom with a locking door. I opened the front door just a smidge to talk to him. In most cases this would be a dumb move, imo, but my door is blocked from opening fully by my washing machine, so if he had tried to force his way in he most likely would have gotten smacked in the face as the door rebounded giving me time to use my weapon on him or back around the corner and let the dog at him.

Anyway, he did not appear drunk, just not very intelligent, and he was asking directions, though I could not understand to where. He stayed back a comfortable distance and even took a step back when I let the dog peak out around my leg. I'm too nice, and let him know politely that I had no idea what he was talking about and could not help him (rather than telling him angrily that his blaring horn was unappreciated at any hour much less before the sun is barely rising over the horizon, which I was very tempted to do, though I did not want to start something with this man in a situation that clearly had not risen to volatile).

Not entirely related, my husband and I now have a plan worked out when workmen or the like are expected or when unexpected visitors show up. I call or email to let him know somebody is here and contact him immediately when they leave. That way, if anything does happen, he has the information to know what was going on at the time and if they are taking too long, he knows to call and make sure all is well.