Bug-out Weapons

[Mooch9mm]

I shall pour a libation in honor of the Zombie Squad Loya Jirga which transpired today. Now, if we were just all Warlords...

[dynomike]

I'll go with my .22 rifle and my mosin. If 5 rounds of 7.62x54r can't drop the angry animal chasing me in the woods, I'll run. Fast.

[flsgear]

Justification for those who don't agree / my 2cents: LA Riots - see korean store owners vs looters
Katrina gun owners protecting selves vs looters/robbers/etc.
The myriad of other self protection stories during emergencies.

The reality is in the states we have an overabundance of people whom believe that they can simply take what they want. This seems to spike the higher you get into the city. This is the converse of how it is in argentina, where a relatively small country is dominated by gangs and the city is relatively safer. This is why Ferfal's advice is good, but has to be taken in context. And while I admit many people are a bit overzealous, the reality still exists that without protection the only thing in a situation with a breakdown of law and order preventing you from becoming a victim is basically luck (imho). I prefer having a measure of control over my fate, hence my advocacy of second amendment rights.

To answer the OP: I think the biggest difficulty for a situation you present is providing or obtaining symmetrical equipment. As the old adage goes two is one, one is none. However, not everyone can afford a significant investment in the latest and greatest firearms for the purposes of maintaining symmetrical equipment. I think that common calibers is the most you can reasonably expect from people whom have a diversity of incomes, interests, etc but a common mission of self protection/survival.

A cheap way of doing this is to do as someone (name omitted) I know did. In PA you can purchase, legally, 3 rifles per month. The cheapest way to buy a consistent armament for collection/otherwise would be to do as he did. He purchased every month at least 1 russian M44 rifle. Those surplus military rifles can be bought as low as ~130 and cleaned up real nice with some lynseed oil & hoppes. Before long, you have 10-12 rifles, all symmetrical, with surplus parts to spare. The ammo (for a while) was very cheap surplus. So he picked up a huge mess of it. While the rifle/rounds may change, the same technique remains. Fine a cheap mess of surplus rifles and buy them. The advantage as well is they go under the radar as being collector pieces and are great shooters in most cases. Once you unbury the actions from the 15 lbs of cosmoline they use that is.

A firearm for bugging out implies you're going somewhere. Once you get to your relatively secluded site, I'm sure things will calm down considerably. This means that you'll be convoyed, most likely, on the road in a series of vehicles with a person or two per vehicle assigned a role of lookout/scout. Realistically on the road you have three things to consider that I can see.
1) Ambushes. Ambushes most likely will not be done at long range as your vehicles will be moving. So, reasonably speaking having a 50 cal or long range rifle is effective, but not necessarily something I'd pick as a go-to weapon in an ambush situation. Closer-mid range weapons (like 25-100 yards) are probably more in order of what one could expect to deal with. Shotguns and AK/AR types would be ideal.

2) Roadblocks & checkpoints (legitimate and otherwise). From this standpoint, it makes sense to either have two ways of presenting - "heavily armed" or "lightly/not armed" depending on the legitimacy of the checkpoint. If it's a legit checkpoint and you roll up with an M2 mounted on top of your suburban, you're probably going to get unwanted amounts of attention from the few people still enforcing the law. Likewise showing up to a gang-run checkpoint with nothing but a pocketknife is an invitation for disaster.

3) Game hunting. If you're on the road and you suddenly see an elk in the PAW, you're going to want a rifle that can take the shot. This means at least one person needs a rifle capable of putting an accurate round downfield as well as the person behind it being capable of making the shot.


So, over-analysis aside (it's a bad habit ), my own situation has varied results. I've convinced the bulk of my friends/family to purchase 45's. They're varied make/model, but at least the ammo is the same. I have a myriad of firearms that I've picked up over the years. My wife has the dpms m4 that we put together, and I've got the old school maadi AKM (bought back in like 97 for about ~400 lol). There's also two rem 870's, my 45, a 22 pistol (next on the upgrade list for the wifey) ,a few 22 rifles, some old swiss 7.5's (about 3-4 of em, easy to shoot/learn) etc.

The bulk of the guns are in an old russian transport box (the wooden kind) which can be quickly thrown into the back of an SUV/Truck/Van along with several totes worth of supplies. Grab go-to guns, pistols, go bags, misc supplies, and we're out the door inside of 20 minutes.

I think the bigger question is protection. Most ambushes are very successful unless they are anticipated and counter-ambushed. So realistically body armor is higher on my list than new/symmetrical firearms. It's also generally cheaper. Some pillowcases full of dirt/sand and duct-taped phone books inside the car take care of 'up-armoring' my vehicle(s). This can be done quicker than it might seem when you center around the passenger compartment only.

Once you're actually at your site you can entrench, build up, etc. So I see that as less of an issue then the act of actually GETTING there.

TL;DR - blah blah blah guns blah

gd I talk a lot >_>

[Kill Switch]

I don't bug out without Ruthie Baby. If we bug out in a vehicle (we are ready to do so), the restrictions of weight and space applied by bugging out on foot do not apply. If we go on foot, Ruthie insists on her .223 AR SBR and her Colt 1911 on her person. I insist on my .308 AR with an 18.5" barrel and my Colt 1911 with a Ruger Bearcat in my ruck. That's it for bugging out on foot.

We live in a rural community and have a plan to get to a cache in the hills not too far away on foot before we move on foot to a more permanent location (another cache site) with more long term amenities (where we would go in the BOV if able).

Me and Ruthie got tired of the bug out firearms scenarios a while back. And just decided to go with what we felt comfortable with. The decision had the interesting effect of fine tuning the ammo choices (Ruthie settled on SS109 equivalent and I use M118LR), the optics, the BUIS, slings and so forth; same for the 1911 choices. We have spent quite a bit of time training with these guns.

This is just me and Ruthie, and in the context of our personal preferences and particular circumstances.

I guess the only static thing about bug out on foot guns is that no matter who you are, you'll end up taking what you've got. Hopefully, you won't have to use it...

[jcodyr19]

I would prefer something light and easy to be concealed. If you run around wielding a weapon out in the open, it says I have something to protect (or am crazy). I would try to be as low key as possible.

[flsgear]

I remember reading somewhere that the safest thing you could do in a civil war (was written I think by a bosnian) was to be lightly or unequipped.

Basically if you were out and about, you'd get harassed by both sides and if you were packing, they'd think you were on the other side. The article said it was a good idea to demand to see the officer in charge to speak with them in all circumstances, to avoid screwing around with the low guys who just want to abuse authority. I wish I could remember the name of it. While it's a bit specific, it does have some interesting lessons in the story and makes a point for covert/conceal-ability.


I'll try to find the article..

[Electricity]

The big issue I see here, is that in your scenario you've now turned your young kids into combatants. Last time I checked, in a fire fight, bullets shoot both ways.

[ODA 226]

It's not a lack of understanding...it's REALISM. Our economy is humming along, we're growing at a rate that far out-paces the rest of the G8 and we have more oil under our territory than anyone else on the planet. In other words, we don't have a lot to worry about - even if some sort of global collapse was likely - which it is not. I actually have more than 2 months worth of food. In fact, I have more than 2 months worth without even touching my preps. A major ice storm is a far more likely event than some sort of global collapse. A breakdown of social order in this country or globally is highly unlikely to say the least.

Sorry Mantis but I must strongly disagree with you here. We may be growing our economy faster than any other G-8 country, but I dare say that is like passing a starving person on the road when you have less than 1 days food left yourself.

Yes, you'll make it farther than he did, but you too will soon starve to death; and the United States economy is starving to death. This economy is "growing" at 1.3 %. The economy is stagnent, the TRUE Rate of Unemployment is almost 18% and first time unemployment claims last week were over 400,000! How do these numbers equate to a strong economy? It doesn't.

[mantis]

It's not a lack of understanding...it's REALISM. Our economy is humming along, we're growing at a rate that far out-paces the rest of the G8 and we have more oil under our territory than anyone else on the planet. In other words, we don't have a lot to worry about - even if some sort of global collapse was likely - which it is not. I actually have more than 2 months worth of food. In fact, I have more than 2 months worth without even touching my preps. A major ice storm is a far more likely event than some sort of global collapse. A breakdown of social order in this country or globally is highly unlikely to say the least.

Sorry Mantis but I must strongly disagree with you here. We may be growing our economy faster than any other G-8 country, but I dare say that is like passing a starving person on the road when you have less than 1 days food left yourself.

Yes, you'll make it farther than he did, but you too will soon starve to death; and the United States economy is starving to death. This economy is "growing" at 1.3 %. The economy is stagnent, the TRUE Rate of Unemployment is almost 18% and first time unemployment claims last week were over 400,000! How do these numbers equate to a strong economy? It doesn't.

I realize that the US economy is in bad shape- I was referring to our (I'm Canadian) economy which is in great shape - outpacing everyone else in the G8 in job growth (we've recovered all the jobs lost in the recession) and economic growth (projected at over 3% this year). There are other countries that are in worse shape than the US and there are many in between. If the US economy collapsed, it would hurt us in the short term because of the amount of goods (including most of your oil) that we sell you but in the long term, we'd ride it out relatively unscathed. I doubt that you would see anything akin to a global collapse as a result. A second recession probably but not a collapse. As bad a shape as the US economy is in right now, I still don't see even a US economic collapse as likely. The elected leaders can and will get a handle on things before they spiral out of control.

[wamba]

The big issue I see here, is that in your scenario you've now turned your young kids into combatants. Last time I checked, in a fire fight, bullets shoot both ways.

See I saw it as giving the kids the ability to defend themselves or the group. What happens if Daddy is hunkered behind a bush out of sight of camp plagued with the sphincter sneezes, while mommy is busy with the youngest & prepping dinner when the dingos (feral dogs for most of us) show up to eat the baby? A responsible 15 year old that's armed with a rifle or handgun could put down a couple of dogs with little problem, but that same kid using a stick is going to be lucky to take out one canine. My point is that Daddy can't always be there to deal with the bad stuff & sometimes there's more bad than a Daddy can deal with alone.
As far as firefights go if it gets that bad & the family gets into a situation where they have to fight goblins then I'm guessing the kids will be taking fire armed or not. Would I rather my wife & children not be exposed to danger? HELL MUTHUFUGGIN YEAH! But the fact is danger sometimes comes looking for the innocent & when possible I think the innocent should be armed & ready to deal with it.

[ODA 226]

As bad a shape as the US economy is in right now, I still don't see even a US economic collapse as likely. The elected leaders can and will get a handle on things before they spiral out of control.

Didn't catch that you were a Canadian. However, our elected leaders are the ones who put us in this situation and looking at recent events, they seem hell bent on keeping us in this economic mess.

[mantis]

As bad a shape as the US economy is in right now, I still don't see even a US economic collapse as likely. The elected leaders can and will get a handle on things before they spiral out of control.

Didn't catch that you were a Canadian. However, our elected leaders are the ones who put us in this situation and looking at recent events, they seem hell bent on keeping us in this economic mess.

I will admit, I've been watching the goings on of the past week and shaking my head wondering what the whole bunch of them were thinking.

[bae]

My family is bugging in.

M1919s, M1918 BAR, Barrett, M1As, AR15s, Glocks, that sort of stuff.

My advice to you, Mooch, after decades of accumulating various firearms that people in the family "liked", is that you should put your foot down now and standardize on a small number of platforms. This will make logistics far simpler: spare parts, ammo, magazines. This will also allow for everyone to be decently-trained on everything, and for much simpler maintenance, as you'll only have to learn how to repair and maintain a handful of items.

Pick a good 80% solution, and go for it. Logistics >> shiny things.

[ODA 226]

I remember reading somewhere that the safest thing you could do in a civil war (was written I think by a bosnian) was to be lightly or unequipped.

Basically if you were out and about, you'd get harassed by both sides and if you were packing, they'd think you were on the other side. The article said it was a good idea to demand to see the officer in charge to speak with them in all circumstances, to avoid screwing around with the low guys who just want to abuse authority. I wish I could remember the name of it. While it's a bit specific, it does have some interesting lessons in the story and makes a point for covert/conceal-ability.


I'll try to find the article..

I'd like to see that article too, because I was involved in that war and I found that if you were detained by either of the three sides and started to make "demands", you'd be lucky if all you received was a butt stroke to the gob...

[flsgear]

I always wondered about demanding things like that lol after reading that article. I still can't find it but I'll post it if i do.

[theotherryan]

As some folks have noted it is important to have some balance in your survivalist preparations. Don't go out and spend 30k on guns and ammo and gun stuff when the pantry is empty and you don't have camping gear or a bunch of other important stuff. Buy a rifle this month, a couple packs the next, a bunch of food another, etc.

As to guns I really recommend having a common rifle. If you actually need to use these guns folks will have to cross level ammunition and maybe one person will lose their kit but still have their gun and need resupply from family/ team mates. I would suggest doing the same for pistols.

One benefit of the AR platform is it's modularity. Depending on interests and needs one person can have a 20" bull barreled target gun with a 3x9 scope, another a 16" M4 and a third could have a 10" AR pistol IE poor man's SBR. Also remember that a big guy can shoot a smaller gun (or rifle too though the AR's modulatity handles that) a lot easier than a small person can shoot a big one.

Personally I would go with AR's and Glock 9mm's. An additional benefit of the Glock 9 is that mags (obviously that size or bigger, a Glock 17 can't take a G26 mag) and spare parts between the subcompact 26, compact 19 and full sized 17 are almost all interchangeable. The Wife's Glock 26 can take the mags from your Glock 19 and your son't Glock 17.

Get these common core guns then go from there. Try to stick to a single shotgun and .22 rifle platform if possible. From there get whatever else gives your family joy.

[DeathIncarnate]

Well. . . My gear is dependent upon the specific scenario. For the sake of simplicity I'll split the scenarios into two categories; a bug out where survival is the primary challenge(stranded on a desert island scenario) and a bug out where defense is a necessity (katrina with zombies).

If I don't anticipate having to defend myself regularly which is the most likely scenario then my goal is hunting and getting past the checkpoints which will inevitably be in place. So my weapons include a Sig Sauer SP2022 9mm for defense and a Rossi circuit judge. In my area hunting is done at 150yards or less so the circuit judge in .45 colt and .410 can take deer, coyotes, turkey, small birds, rabbit, squirriel. Perfect for survival in this area. And the stock is easily removed making it easy to stow and pass thru checkpoints.

Defense scenario: I subscribe to the single caliber theory for sure. . . And it should be a ubiquitous caliber. So I have mossberg 500 (8 shot), sig sp2022 (9mm), and a beretta cx4 storm (9mm). Light, compact, single caliber pistol carbine combo.

[flsgear]

Arise necro thread ariiiiiiiiiise

[Neddog]

Firearms are ok but do you have the truly important survival gear in place already? Before spending a bundle on all those weapons, be sure that you have all the truly important stuff that you really need in a survival situation first - food, water, shelter, etc. In most scenarios, firearms will be unnecessary except for hunting. Arming your family like some kind of mini-army isn't going to do you much good if you don't have the basics covered first.

Unless you plan on living like bandits... which is something I would never suggest or condone. Looking at how some people arm their packs and call it "survival gear" though, the only rational way it would help them survive would be as a bandit.

I do believe in being armed to defend yourself, from both wild critters and people of ill-intention. Most of your tools for bushcraft and hunting should easily double as weapons sufficient enough for self-defense. Carrying firearms just for protection is not entirely necessary in my opinion. Of course, I like to travel as light as possible, while firearms with enough ammo for long-term use are far from light. Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does to me. I'm also Canadian, which makes a difference in my attitude towards guns as well.

If you plan on eating meat, then your primary tools should be traps, snares, fishing lines, etc. Hunting should be secondary to trapping, as it's simply not as effective. When you do hunt though, you should be concentrating on small game rather than large game if sustenance and food are your goals, in which case firearms are unnecessary. Not saying you couldn't make use of it, just that you don't "need" it.

My primary weapons are all ones which help to feed and shelter myself, such as a knife, machete, axe, sling, slingshot, slingbow, spear, atlatl, etc. None of them require me to leave the woods and stock up at an ammo shop. If I run out of ammo, I can make it or pick it up right in the woods. Those are all real tools of "survival" and even recreational outdoor living (in other words, above and beyond basic survival).

[GhostOfTerra]

I agree the other gear is important (shelter, food, water and filtration, clothing, etc.) but since this is a thread on bug out weapons, i will add my set-up to the list.

for me, Glock 19 with 4x magazines & PTR-91 (HK-91 clone) with 10x magazines, side folding stock, trijicon night sights (going to be getting optics when i get back stateside, either clow mount of low profile, not sure which though), and specter gear 3-point sling.

wife will be bringing her taurus pt-709 slim with 3 magazines and her ak-74 with 6x magazines.

possibly throwing in a mosin-nagant 91/30 and marlin model 60 .22lr if we are going in a vehicle.

the reason for those firearms, that is what we are most comfortable with and have the most ammo for, plus 5.45x39mm is dirt cheap (yes i know it will run out but we will cross that bridge when it does, we have 3k rounds for it currently with plans on buying more). PTR-91 is .308 and shoots 7.62 NATO just fine other than winchester white box. .308 can be used effectively for hunting and self defense and the PTR is accurate for both. both pistols are 9mm so interchangable ammo in that respect.

sorry if that is a little confusing to read, i'm exhausted, A/C went out in the tent last night so it was a very long night (i work a midnight shift at my current location, so my night is actually daytime with 110+ degree temps.)

i wont comment on the political side of this other than to say i dont have high hopes for the future (based on many things i have seen, am seeing in the news, and based on research i have done in my free time). take care all and hopefully we have a bright future ahead of us!