Bug-out Weapons

[Mooch9mm]

Well, the caliber variance resembles what we have on hand already and Good Lord no one wants to give up their favorite gun!

[Mooch9mm]

"Fire" "Flood"?
Some of you guys don't seem to think there'll be any civil unrest in our future.
Are you going to shelter in place in Toronto for 2 months or more?
Don't you read the news?

[EdwardTeach]

If you are going to carry a weapon during bug out, I would suggest you not bring the fact to the attention of LE. During Katrina there are several reports of National Guard stopping people dressed in camouflage, or carrying Cammo Backpacks. They were taking their firearms and giving them a receipt. A receipt is nice but a firearm is better. Consider who’s attention you attract when bugging out. Just my 2 cents.

[BullOnParade]

"Fire" "Flood"?
Some of you guys don't seem to think there'll be any civil unrest in our future.
Are you going to shelter in place in Toronto for 2 months or more?
Don't you read the news?

I COULD bug in for two months. I'm probably boarderline two months without power even (January/February would be my least favorite two months in that case). It's not that we aren't prepared for civil unrest, it's that we're prepared for it among other things.

If TSHTF and I see nine equally armed people, I might consider them a threat without prior engagement, or worse (for you) consider them to be protecting something I want. It's hard to appear incognito in that large of a group with a handgun and long gun each.

Everyone could have a handgun, maybe two "fighting" rifles, one shotgun, and one .22 rifle. I feel that would cover all bases. That's just what I think I would do in a group that large.

[Mooch9mm]

Bull,
What they'll see is our vehicles and trailer loaded up with things they want. It won't be the friggin' guns. Then they'll see me and make a serious decision whether they want my stuff bad enough to risk death to take it. Civil unrest will be a component in each disaster scenario you've mentioned. I don't expect Canadians to understand. Really, I don't. Down here in the Southwest, there are people NOW who want your shit until you stick that gun in their face.
I second the discretion part concerning LEO confiscation at checkpoints and so forth. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
Human behavior being what it is, you'd be irresponsibile not to have lots of guns and lots of ammo along with all the other 'lots of" you'll need.

[Mooch9mm]

I guess it comes down to being one of two kinds of people:
Those of us who see some true crash of some kind coming with it's corresponding Pandemic of the Panicked and those who store 72hrs of water and Slim Jims and don't really believe any of this.
Like I've said, we are leaving the Southwest - with all our guns - and moving north to homestead a self-sustaining farm on property we already own free and clear with a well we sank in '97. All of my family members will be trained and armed for that outcome. We'll be sly, discreet and very lethal.
And before you lecture me on how tough farming is, let's save that for the relevant board on the Forum, shall we?
I suppose I'm a little hard on the Canadians who seem to slap their hands along-side their heads in dismay at the mention of guns. (I actually liked the CDF I worked with in Haiti and Afghanistan - good guys - not very aggressive but technically proficient). Down here in the Southwest, we grow up with guns; it's a second-nature thing.

[mantis]

"Fire" "Flood"?
Some of you guys don't seem to think there'll be any civil unrest in our future.
Are you going to shelter in place in Toronto for 2 months or more?
Don't you read the news?

Absolutely. There is never any civil unrest in Toronto. Things like the G8/G20 riot are about as bad as it gets and it was pretty tame compared to what has happened elsewhere. Bugging out is always a last resort for me, and i'd guess most people here for several very good reasons:

1) You know the area better than any other.
2) All your stuff is there - no matter how much transport you think you can arrange, you'll never carry everything.
3) It's expensive to obtain, stock and secure a separate BOL as well as your primary residence.
4) In virtually all disaster scenarios, it's a temporary condition in which things will return to normal within a certain period of time.

[BullOnParade]

I guess it comes down to being one of two kinds of people:
Those of us who see some true crash of some kind coming with it's corresponding Pandemic of the Panicked and those who store 72hrs of water and Slim Jims and don't really believe any of this.
Like I've said, we are leaving the Southwest - with all our guns - and moving north to homestead a self-sustaining farm on property we already own free and clear with a well we sank in '97. All of my family members will be trained and armed for that outcome. We'll be sly, discreet and very lethal.
And before you lecture me on how tough farming is, let's save that for the relevant board on the Forum, shall we?
I suppose I'm a little hard on the Canadians who seem to slap their hands along-side their heads in dismay at the mention of guns. (I actually liked the CDF I worked with in Haiti and Afghanistan - good guys - not very aggressive but technically proficient). Down here in the Southwest, we grow up with guns; it's a second-nature thing.

Tag! I'm out. Best of luck.

[mantis]

This is a huge oversimplification.

I guess it comes down to being one of two kinds of people:
Those of us who see some true crash of some kind coming with it's corresponding Pandemic of the Panicked and those who store 72hrs of water and Slim Jims and don't really believe any of this.

Most of us here do not fit into either category. Indeed a huge crash of some kind is highly unlikely and very few of us are prepared for only 72 hours of disaster. Most of us are prepared for months if not longer.

Like I've said, we are leaving the Southwest - with all our guns - and moving north to homestead a self-sustaining farm on property we already own free and clear with a well we sank in '97. All of my family members will be trained and armed for that outcome. We'll be sly, discreet and very lethal.

You're vastly overstating the need for being "discreet and very lethal". You won't be running around getting into firefights in the face of a disaster unless:

1) You have made some very searious mistakes in your prepping that are forcing you into dangerous situations that shoud be avoided at all costs in a survival situation.
2) You have a death wish - death is a virtual certainty if you're getting into gun battles. Sooner or later you will get hit and in the face of that kind of disaster, you will more than likely die as a result no matter how minor the wound.

And before you lecture me on how tough farming is, let's save that for the relevant board on the Forum, shall we?
I suppose I'm a little hard on the Canadians who seem to slap their hands along-side their heads in dismay at the mention of guns. (I actually liked the CDF I worked with in Haiti and Afghanistan - good guys - not very aggressive but technically proficient). Down here in the Southwest, we grow up with guns; it's a second-nature thing.

In actual fact, we have plenty of exposure to firearms. Hunting has been a way of life in Canada since our days as British colonies. Firearms ownership is a part of our heritage. Certain city types up here are no different from their counterparts on your side of the border in places like New York and Chicago when it comes to their hatred and fear of firearms. In rural Canada especially, firearms are a part of every day life. In fact, we are one of the countries with the highest per-capita ownership of firearms in the world with some 2 million license holders (basically 1 in 17 in the general population).

Regarding the Canadian Forces, the aggression thing comes down to differences in training. Canadian military training is very similar to British and Austrailian methods - it focuses on fire and movement, small unit tactics, stealth and maneuver rather than on maximum application of firepower. Our guys are as aggressive as they need to be and adapt to the situation as needed. They reduced the Taliban to a hollow shell of it's former self in the Kandahar region. In fact, they fought and won the key battle in that region for control of Kandahar that most military experts say would have been a disaster of epic proportions for NATO had the Taliban prevailed.

[Mooch9mm]

I stand by my observations. I trained for six-weeks with PPCLI in Calgary, as well. I've worked with Brits and Auzzies all over the damned place and Canadian soldiers just aren't the Warrior-type. That's why they make splendid Peace-keepers.
But what I find astounding is the lack of geo-political awareness you seem to have. Bull, why the Hell do you have 2 months worth of food? Surely it's not fear of some ice storm. You ARE concerned about a break-down of the Social Order somewhere. If that occurs you can shelter and hide but eventually the hungry people will find you.
Shit, man...Good Luck to you too.

[TDW586]

I stand by my observations. I trained for six-weeks with PPCLI in Calgary, as well. I've worked with Brits and Auzzies all over the damned place and Canadian soldiers just aren't the Warrior-type. That's why they make splendid Peace-keepers.
But what I find astounding is the lack of geo-political awareness you seem to have. Bull, why the Hell do you have 2 months worth of food? Surely it's not fear of some ice storm. You ARE concerned about a break-down of the Social Order somewhere. If that occurs you can shelter and hide but eventually the hungry people will find you.
Shit, man...Good Luck to you too.

Just stop making ignorant stereotypical statements, please.

Also, NO ONE IS SAYING THAT YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE FIREARMS AS PART OF YOUR PREPS!! I was actually on your side, in the beginning of this argument, if you want to look into guns for your family that's cool. But bro, you're acting like a complete tool right now.

[Jeriah]

How are you guys allocating firearms among your folks?

By allowing them to shoot any of my firearms that that want to, showing them how they work, offering my opinions on each weapon's advantages and disadvantages, and then allowing them to choose for themselves what firearms, if any, to buy for themselves. My wife likes my Maadi MISR (AK-47/AKM type rifle), and is free to shoot it, train with it, and use it if needed. Based on her experience with my Sig P226 (likes it but the grip is a bit thick for her), she shot Trebor's P239 and loves it, so she will probably end up getting one of those for herself when she can afford it.

I've played the game before, of looking at all the guns I own, and thinking of which of my friends or family would use each one as we patrol the neighborhood in a zombie-infested post-apocalypse, and it sure is fun. In practical terms, though, offering advice and instruction makes more sense to me than playing quartermaster.

[Mooch9mm]

Yeah...the P90 used to be mine until my Wife out-shot me with it..."Um...okay...here ya go."

[Mooch9mm]

Well, shit. It didn't post my whole Mea Culpa post for some reason.
Summary:
I'm sorry
Had another surgery 2 days ago for a gunshot wound I got in the War - feeling cranky at the moment
I actually like Canadian soldiers and the RCMP
Thanks TDW
Again Sorry
Go Canada

[mantis]

I stand by my observations. I trained for six-weeks with PPCLI in Calgary, as well. I've worked with Brits and Auzzies all over the damned place and Canadian soldiers just aren't the Warrior-type. That's why they make splendid Peace-keepers.

Except that our record is wartime is that of warriors of the first order. It's been that way all the way back to the days of the militiamen in the war of 1812 and it was especially true in the first and second world wars. Our guys on the front lines today can take on and beat anyone they come against. Our people are amongst the best trained in the world and they have punched well above their weight whever they have been deployed - especially in Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, our forces faced a disproportionately high percentage of combat operations among NATO troops and, on a per-capita basis, suffered the greatest casualties as a result. We never gave an inch to the Taliban and we reduced them to a smouldering hulk of their former selves in that region.

But what I find astounding is the lack of geo-political awareness you seem to have. Bull, why the Hell do you have 2 months worth of food? Surely it's not fear of some ice storm. You ARE concerned about a break-down of the Social Order somewhere. If that occurs you can shelter and hide but eventually the hungry people will find you.
Shit, man...Good Luck to you too.

It's not a lack of understanding...it's REALISM. Our economy is humming along, we're growing at a rate that far out-paces the rest of the G8 and we have more oil under our territory than anyone else on the planet. In other words, we don't have a lot to worry about - even if some sort of global collapse was likely - which it is not. I actually have more than 2 months worth of food. In fact, I have more than 2 months worth without even touching my preps. A major ice storm is a far more likely event than some sort of global collapse. A breakdown of social order in this country or globally is highly unlikely to say the least.

Just what are you proposing as a solution to such a disaster anyway if not sheltering and hiding? Being prepared to defend yourself is good and necessary but there are probably 10 or 11 other far more important bases to cover before that simply because in virtually all realistic scenarios, the need to fight off hordes of "hungry people" will be minimal. In fact, if you prep properly and be the grey man, you won't have to worry about people trying to break down your door for food.

[TDW586]

To soften my earlier statement of your toolishness (:D), I'll share some of my experiences with firearms preps for my family.

My father is an experienced shooter with 27 years of law enforcement experience, including two years as an international police trainer in Iraq. He knows what he's doing. However, he's not much of a rifle guy. He has several handguns and is quite competent with them, and knows how to handle a rifle as well, but I know he's not going to spend his money on a defensive rifle. Since if TSHTF and I can't get to my parents I'd prefer my father have a good rifle for defense, I made him a present of a Yugo M70AB2, 10 Bulgy magazines, and a 1200 round case of Chinese MSC 123-grain 7.62x39. I chose this rifle because my father is familiar with the AK from his time working with the Iraqi army, and the AK makes an excellent defensive carbine on all counts.

EDIT: Another example. My sister currently keeps a Stoeger SxS 12 gauge with 00 buck for home defense. I strongly support her keeping a home defense weapon she is familiar with, since her husband is often away due to work. In the next few months, my sister's family and I will actually begin sharing a house, and my firearms will come with me. I'm planning to do some shooting with my sister, and if she can become comfortable with a pump-action 12 or 20 gauge firing buckshot, I'll probably try to persuade her to keep a condition 3 pump action instead of the SxS.

[Mooch9mm]

LOL - I might have run into your Dad, TDW.
That sounds like a most excellent, sensible gift from a Good Son.

[Mooch9mm]

(Me and the Spouse need to kick in our dues and order T-shirts today)

[Mooch9mm]

About my military/paramilitary history, I've found that if I tell the whole story no one ever fucking believes it anyway. I've been around forums since 2001 and people can pretty much say anything. The trick, I guess, is in HOW they say it. You get a sort of bullshit radar. So I'm not getting into the weeds about it unless it's some relevant anecdote. Suffice it to say I'm a 45 year-old Combat Veteran who's been around the world doing a lot of crazy stuff and please do feel free to throw the Bullshit Card at any moment. Just be prepared for my answer.
Having said that, if you don't believe there's going to be some crushing financial catastrophe in the next five years, you should start The Ostrich Squad.

[Tater Raider]

The thing is everyone's individual situation is different. Once that's accepted by everyone then they tend to get along better. Also, sometimes someone writes up something a certain way but it comes across another way entirely.

It's something I have to remind myself of from time-to-time as well.

[/hijack]

[TDW586]

Mooch, it's more that even if there is a crushing financial disaster, having heavy armament may not be the most useful prep. Check out FerFAL's posts on the subject; link. He's a guy who actually did survive a major financial disaster, Argentina in 2001.

[Mooch9mm]

Well said tater and thanks for going soft on me TDW.
This is my 5th surgery for this shit. I got shot in '04 by one of my best friends and Teamates point-blank in the gut due to his Negligent Discharge. This may be the last one though. It was a scar revision and therefore mostly superficial but it stings like a M***********.
Like I said, I like Canadians - especially teasing Canadians. I had many a good beer with those PPCLI guys in their beautiful NCO Club at Curry Barracks. Good guys but holy crap insecure about Army Shit. Good traders too. I got a OD Green field jacket from a Sergeant with PPCLI shoulder boards for a US goretex jacket. I got smoked on that deal but it is a great field jacket. I gave it to my oldest son. It was always good to see CDF roll up in their LAVs when some bullshit was going on. Good guys.

[Mooch9mm]

I'll read that TDW - promise
I think I've belabored the point that all I want is every family member trained and armed - who are capable - and redundancy. Also, guns can be a very useful barter item as well. (again, looking at the long-term future from a very gloomy perspective)

[Mooch9mm]

So, mantis. I saw your kick-ass gun collection now which four would you keep and why if you had to throw them in the back of a truck and skeedaddle.