would you release the inmates?

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by Nth90 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:47 am

My answer. No. I only read the first post and am giving my answer after reading that.
Talk to a guard at a place like Cook County jail some time. Keeping it PC, these are bad men and it is best to let them rot.

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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by basm » Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:33 am

freenarative wrote:@basm

I am willing to say I'd try to send help back to them but other than that, what is the magical answer?

well,,,,there is no magical answer it's just a question to allow you to look into your self. If you are happy with the answer you give then it is the right answer. if, however, after someone questions your answer, you find your self doubting what you have said,,,, is it really the right answer to give???
I am not doubting myself. I am truly 100% uncomfortable with deeming myself judge, jury, and executioner. And how much of my own time and resources would that even take and why is it even worth it? It's a prison, they are full of criminals, and the authorities can deal with it. It sounds to me like you are not doubting that you would let them all out. If we come across that prison at the same time, that, I think, is the real problem.

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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by freenarative » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:21 am

basm wrote:
freenarative wrote:@basm

I am willing to say I'd try to send help back to them but other than that, what is the magical answer?

well,,,,there is no magical answer it's just a question to allow you to look into your self. If you are happy with the answer you give then it is the right answer. if, however, after someone questions your answer, you find your self doubting what you have said,,,, is it really the right answer to give???
I am not doubting myself. I am truly 100% uncomfortable with deeming myself judge, jury, and executioner. And how much of my own time and resources would that even take and why is it even worth it? It's a prison, they are full of criminals, and the authorities can deal with it. It sounds to me like you are not doubting that you would let them all out. If we come across that prison at the same time, that, I think, is the real problem.

The one thing I was holding off saying is that if the shtf I'm off to the country side and I'll never be in this situation. (I hope!)

@basm

Like I said, if you are happy with the choices you make and the answers you give then I commend you for those choices. good on you, too many people waiver and sway when given other options (myself included). And I say that, and this, truthfully with no sarcasm or malice,,, stay strong in who you are.

occasionally (and only rarely) semantics is not one of my strong points so I'm sorry if this didn't come out quite right.
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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by Meat N' Taters » Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:14 am

Hell yeah I would release them. In a zombie apocalypse, I daresay I would want them on my side. Who is better at killing, evading capture, and outright savagery than the felonious underclass? Traits considered repugnant in civilized times are quite useful in SHTF.

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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by FrANkNstEin » Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:27 am

Who is better at killing, evading capture
Are you sure about that? :lol:

I mean, they´re locked up right now so how are they any good in evading capture? :wink:

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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by Meat N' Taters » Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:38 am

FrANkNstEin wrote:
Who is better at killing, evading capture
Are you sure about that? :lol:

I mean, they´re locked up right now so how are they any good in evading capture? :wink:
Touche, good sir. I will accept my pwnage like a man. :lol:

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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by breacher » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:34 pm

aus.templar wrote:
breacher wrote: But for the sake of argument in my opinion........ grab the keys and keep walking save the next person the trouble of thinking about it. Who knows you may be able to clear it out eventually and use it as a base of operations......
Agree with the underlined part, it's a warm fuzzy feeling when I agree with someone who has only 4 posts... makes me hopeful for the future.

As for the second half of the quoted part, I've never been in a prison but I'm not sure I'd want to make my BOL a place designed to keep people IN and not OUT.... aside from various ownership issues
I used the basis that in the PAW there would be no "ownership" and as I said before this is just in my experience but a best place to keep people from getting out is to keep them from getting in. Of course it is all situational and would highly depend on the people you have gathered and the skills that you have as a collective group you are only as good as you weakest link of course.

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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by Witch Doctor » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:10 pm

Hmm..... A prison could make a good HQ for a dedicated zombie suppression force ;)
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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by freenarative » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:45 pm

Meat N' Taters wrote:Hell yeah I would release them. In a zombie apocalypse, I daresay I would want them on my side. Who is better at killing, evading capture, and outright savagery than the felonious underclass? Traits considered repugnant in civilized times are quite useful in SHTF.
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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by Zdeno » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:52 pm

They're in there for a reason, and I would not let them loose, they could run off and kill someone, they could kill you, your loved ones, your partners, they could form violent gangs and rape innocent women, they're safer in that cell away from you and sadly, even though they are people, I feel no sympathy for them as they are criminals and made a decision to go down that path in life, if they die in that cell it was their own doing and I wouldn't feel an ounce of remorse for letting them rot in there, but I'm not releasing them and putting me, my friends, my loved ones lives in danger just because I felt pity for someone who couldn't abide the law.

Somewhere down the road releasing those people would come back to haunt you and it would only make your environment more dangerous by releasing rapists, murderers and gang members.

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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by bae » Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:04 pm

Consider a related question:

If a prison near you was burning down, and you were on the volunteer fire crew, would you help put out the fire? Would it be "OK" to release the prisoners to avoid them burning to death?

If the dam run by your water system was overtopping, and about to fail, and there was a prison in the flood path, would you alert the prison, and perhaps divert some of your evacuation resources to getting the prisoners out of the path of certain destruction?

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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by raptor » Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:41 pm

bae wrote:Consider a related question:

If a prison near you was burning down, and you were on the volunteer fire crew, would you help put out the fire? Would it be "OK" to release the prisoners to avoid them burning to death?

If the dam run by your water system was overtopping, and about to fail, and there was a prison in the flood path, would you alert the prison, and perhaps divert some of your evacuation resources to getting the prisoners out of the path of certain destruction?

Interesting points but not exactly the same scenario since there are authorities there to control or deal with them once they are released. In this scenario, there is no one to control them except you
and you are also their main target. Quite different.

In the case of fire or flood I would assist/release them assuming there was support to deal with them.


Note in the aftermath of Katrina the local prison was evacuated. These are prisoners being held on an on ramp. The main prison in Angola, LA was also evacuated for high water. However, there were appropriate resources available. They were not released in to the public domain.

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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by ZapThyCat » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:36 pm

In virtually every PAW or even disaster movie you can think of (with a few major exceptions), the big killer or enemy isn't the disaster/zombies, it's other people. The scramble for resources, the trampling of hordes of people, the panic and the confusion... add into that mix the elements of society that have already been caught doing wrong and have less of a moral code, and opening the gates is probably not what you want to do.

In the PAW, enough people will have a shrunken moral code as it is, without throwing hardened criminals who are hungry, desperate, got nothing to lose, and have NEVER had qualms about stealing or killing.
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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by lailr » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:45 pm

Heres another thought, what about a small county jail, 50 or less, what would you do?

Thats the situatuion I work in, and yes, we still operate on keyrings........along with lots of other equipment 35 years old.....

The thought is, in my jail it's not hard to figure out who's in for violent stuff, and who's in for petty stuff. And just because someone has a substance abuse problem, does not always comment on his personal morality...... I've had a regular with many instances of theft, assault, and substance charges help pull a tweaker off I was fighting, before other officers had a chance to respond...

AND, a county jail is usually made of mostly pre-trial inmates, who have not been proven guilty or innocent
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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by Rev » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:51 pm

lailr wrote:Heres another thought, what about a small county jail, 50 or less, what would you do?
Chances are the local police and citizens would be able to know them personally.

I argue for the meth fiend to remain locked up.
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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:11 pm

Blacksmith wrote:
while walking through a shopping centre (that was unlocked) you find a guy hand cuffed to a radiator. you know he isn't safe there because the area is unsecured, a note painted on a nearby wall near by reads "do not release danger!"
:lol:

The situation is preposterous. Logically he has to be a little bit dangerous. If a dangerous person were dealing with him he would have just killed him instead of wasting his time to handcuff him to a radiator and write a note. So likely someone like REV put him there because he did not want to kill him. Unless it is a trap, as noted.
Yup.

That, and I don't keep a handcuff key on my person for just such occasions anyway, so short of handing the guy a rusty hacksaw, what am I going to do for him anyway?
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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by URBAN ASSAULT » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:30 pm

Mr. E. Monkey wrote:
Blacksmith wrote:
while walking through a shopping centre (that was unlocked) you find a guy hand cuffed to a radiator. you know he isn't safe there because the area is unsecured, a note painted on a nearby wall near by reads "do not release danger!"
:lol:

The situation is preposterous. Logically he has to be a little bit dangerous. If a dangerous person were dealing with him he would have just killed him instead of wasting his time to handcuff him to a radiator and write a note. So likely someone like REV put him there because he did not want to kill him. Unless it is a trap, as noted.
Yup.

That, and I don't keep a handcuff key on my person for just such occasions anyway, so short of handing the guy a rusty hacksaw, what am I going to do for him anyway?
I do.

Actually, two of them.

One on my key-ring(a relic of my Bouncer days), and another that is attached to the flat area on the back of my belt in the small of my back.

Done it for years.

Cops are usually good guys, but not everyone who carries cuffs(legally or otherwise) are good guys, therefore... I want a way out if I am someday, somehow restrained by the wrong people.

A hidden handcuff key on my belt at least gives me a chance.

But now back to the original topic.

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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by KnightoftheRoc » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:52 pm

breacher wrote:
aus.templar wrote:
breacher wrote: But for the sake of argument in my opinion........ grab the keys and keep walking save the next person the trouble of thinking about it. Who knows you may be able to clear it out eventually and use it as a base of operations......


Agree with the underlined part, it's a warm fuzzy feeling when I agree with someone who has only 4 posts... makes me hopeful for the future.

As for the second half of the quoted part, I've never been in a prison but I'm not sure I'd want to make my BOL a place designed to keep people IN and not OUT.... aside from various ownership issues


I used the basis that in the PAW there would be no "ownership"
and as I said before this is just in my experience but a best place to keep people from getting out is to keep them from getting in. Of course it is all situational and would highly depend on the people you have gathered and the skills that you have as a collective group you are only as good as you weakest link of course.
I disagree with the bolded statement. Assuming I live to see it, I'll be IN the PAW. And, in the PAW, what I own will still be MINE- you make the effort of taking it at your own risk. I am sure I won't be the only person taking this point of view. So, your concept of there no longer being "ownership", whether you mean on a legal basis, or just the concept of it, is fundamentally flawed.

Site rules aside for a moment, and leaving the legality issues out of it, the idea that there will be no ownership in the PAW is an example of flawed thinking, and an idea I'd suggest stamping out immediately. Keeping a hold on that idea will, even if you don't realize it, color the rest of your thinking, and cause you problems later on. What's mine is mine, even if I don't currently happen to have my hands directly on it, and anyone trying to take it will have a really bad day on their hands. Assume THAT, and that others will be thinking along the same lines, and you'll be way farther ahead.
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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by DarkAxel » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:24 am

Rev wrote:Heres another thought, what about a small county jail, 50 or less, what would you do?

The population of the jail that serves my home county also includes convicts imprisoned by the state (everything from drug charges to manslaughter), so I'd still be hesitant. However, due to societal conditions in my AO, most of the inmates of the nearest jail are in for things like Alcohol Intoxication, DUI, Possession of controlled substances, Possession with intent to distribute, flagrant non-support, and other lesser non-felonious or non-violent offenses. I'm also more likely to know a lot of them from my school days.

I'd be more willing to help out those guys than prison inmates. However, I'd still be quite cautious about dealing with some of them.
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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by xous » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:46 am

If we take the legal issues out of the equation (for me my personal ethics will always preempt legal issues) then we are simply dealing with the ethics of the situation.

Now I think a lot of people saying no way are focused on that these people are inmates. A week of starvation is going to make any group of people extremely desperate and dangerous. So I'd consider the following with any group of people. (People trapped in a parking garage, stranded on a island, etc.)

I'd say that the UN's list of human rights is fairly widely accepted so using it as a reference it looks like it would be a violation of their human rights for them to remain in the prison under those conditions.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Article 29.

(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Now what could one person do to correct the situation? Letting them go may be more ethical than leaving them to stave but would be extremely foolish if you wanted to keep anything you had and/or your life.
It's not possible for one person to meet their needs.

I'd say it would boil down to:

1) Letting them go. (Extremely dangerous to yourself and others in the immediate area)
2) Killing them quickly. (Can this really be justified? Do we have enough ammo?)
3) Not my Problem. (unethical? Far better tactical position.)

Alone, with no one depending on me? Maybe 1 if I could figure out how to get the hell out of there before they could get to me. Probably 3.
With dependents with me or waiting on me. Three. Every time.
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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by squinty » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:43 am

raptor wrote: Thus my assumption would be that the guards who abandoned them did so for reasons sensible to them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_study" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I worked for awhile for a company that did clinical drug trials. The participants in the trials "subjects" were all paid, willing participants. They were not criminals animals or scumbags. The staff were trained, ethical professionals. The Zimbardo effect was in full force. Every new cohort of participants came in as willing subjects and at first enjoyed a convival and cooperative relationship with staff, who treated them as peers. As the study progressed and the participants chafed at the restrictions on their diet, bathroom habits, and other activities and the staff got dissatisfied with the subjects' lack of cooperation, an adversarial relationship developed. The staff became contemptuous and bullying towards the subjects ("those people") and the subjects either deceitfully or defiantly tried to sabotage the study as a way of reasserting personal autonomy. It was ugly, and I quit. The point is, the staff's contempt for the subjects, and the subjects' hostility towards the staff, was rooted in the situation - even though nobody was a criminal, there was an element of guard/inmate mentality generated, very quickly, by the circumstances.

Bank robbers rob banks for reasons sensible to them. They aren't necessarily ethical or defensible reasons. If the guards chose to abandon prisoners to slow starvation or worse, they have the same diminutive moral stature of any criminal in that prison. If you take away someone's liberty - however necessary and just it might be to do so - then as long as they are at your mercy you have certain ethical obligations towards them. When order is restored I hope those guards do a little time alongside those same prisoners.
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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by squinty » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:44 am

Meat N' Taters wrote:Hell yeah I would release them. In a zombie apocalypse, I daresay I would want them on my side. Who is better at killing, evading capture, and outright savagery than the felonious underclass? Traits considered repugnant in civilized times are quite useful in SHTF.
Well, the problem is that when the going gets tough they will decide that the easiest way to survive is to do so at your expense. From personal experience, I can tell you, don't expect loyalty or gratitude from an ex-con.
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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by squinty » Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:30 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik0cqxJE ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: would you release the inmates?

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:33 am

Heres another thought, what about a small county jail, 50 or less, what would you do?
County Jail is a different matter. If things are bad enough that the County lock up is being abandoned for some reason than I am splitting a lot faster and won't have time to release the prisoners. I will have to rely on Lalir to let the drunks and potheads go and keep the lady who is suspected of drowning her kid in the bathtub locked up.
I'd say that the UN's list of human rights is fairly widely accepted so using it as a reference it looks like it would be a violation of their human rights for them to remain in the prison under those conditions.
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