The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by Rugger » Sat May 07, 2011 11:20 am

http://www.khou.com/news/Armed-Waffle-H ... 14449.html
HOUSTON – Imagine that you’re sitting in a Waffle House restaurant early one morning when three masked gunmen storm the place and rob everyone inside. What would you do? It happened right here in Houston the day before Easter, and it was all caught by surveillance cameras. When one of the victims, Charlton Houston, was confronted by the gunmen, he surrendered $600 in cash. But when the robbers fled, he decided to fight back. Surveillance video shows Houston, who has a concealed handgun license, running to his car, grabbing his 9mm pistol and taking off after the suspects. "I shot like 15 times. I shot five times running," Houston said.

But was he within his rights? 11 News legal analyst Gerald Treece said he was.

"I didn’t say it was prudent. I just say it’s not illegal," Treece said. "They were not only using deadly force, they had automatic weapons aimed at him. He has a right under Texas law to protect himself and protect his property." And that even includes scenarios, such as the Waffle House incident, when the danger is no longer imminent. Treece said it’s called the "right of fresh pursuit."

Justin Franks, an instructor for 360 Tactical Training, said Houston might have acted differently if he’d undergone a certain amount of training. "As CHL holders, we’re responsible for every bullet that leaves the gun," Franks said.

In Houston’s case, police believe some of those bullets lodged in the suspects’ late-model Chevy Tahoe. But as of Friday, investigators had yet to find the vehicle or the men. It was unclear if any of them was shot. Police said they checked emergency rooms for patients matching the suspects’ descriptions, but they came up short.
Not the way I would have handled it at all, but it was also $600. And even if I'd had a C/C on me inside of the store, still no shooting, too many people and not good odds of surviving or not hitting somebody else, or causing them to shoot somebody else. And it's good to know about the fresh pursuit law. There are, without a doubt, some things I'd chase somebody down over.

There's a video with the link showing footage of the robbery.

Glad I don't live in Houston anymore. Ughhhh.
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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by J.C. » Sat May 07, 2011 11:51 am

$600 isn't worth killing or dying for.
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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by v3rs3 » Sat May 07, 2011 12:03 pm

"They were not only using deadly force, they had automatic weapons aimed at him. He has a right under Texas law to protect himself and protect his property."
And they knew they had automatic weapons how? Now where does it say they shot anyone or anything, just more fear mongering. Show someone an AK or AR and they automatically assume it's some automatic "assault" rifle b/c that's what the media tells them.

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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by Jeriah » Sat May 07, 2011 12:39 pm

J.C. wrote:$600 isn't worth killing or dying for.
Dying for, no.

Killing...well, that's a personal, ethical issue. For me, and this is just me personally here, if you steal from me, like rob me at gunpoint, whether you get twenty bucks or six hundred, your life isn't on my list of priorities. Lately I've been feeling less and less sympathetic towards criminals. Like, "wah, wah, I went to a bad school, daddy beat me," whatever. Frankly, I don't give a shit. Once you decide to take what someone else has, especially by force or threat thereof, my social consciousness and concern for the well-being of the disadvantaged, takes a back seat to my basic principle of right vs. wrong.

I'm not advocating anyone break the law, practice vigilantism, or anything like that, nor getting into a political debate over capital punishment etc. But I think that Texas' Right of Fresh Pursuit law sounds, from what I hear, like something I would like to see made more common, like Castle Doctrine and the no-duty-to-retreat laws. The idea that if someone breaks into your house, robs you, rapes your wife, kills your kids, or even just grabs your TV, and goes running out the back door, and as soon as their vector of movement is away from you, with your property, you're not allowed to stop the fleeing felon using any force you have...sounds like total fucking bullshit to me.

What I would actually do in that situation, I have no idea. I'm not going to play internet tough guy. But on my personal ethical meter, someone who robs me is no longer worthy of my concern for their well-being. Monetary amounts notwithstanding.

For the record, Steph disagrees with me on this one. She says I'm too angry, place too much emphasis on pride and ego, etc. So, I'm aware that I may be in the wrong here. But that's how I feel.
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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by Jeriah » Sat May 07, 2011 12:44 pm

P.S. Also, I have a personal soft spot for Waffle House, so I may be overreacting based on my love of hash browns. :lol:
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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by shrapnel » Sat May 07, 2011 12:54 pm

Jeriah wrote:P.S. Also, I have a personal soft spot for Waffle House, so I may be overreacting based on my love of hash browns. :lol:
That greasy yellow ambiance is fairly hard to beat. And for such low prices! :lol:
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The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by BadIntel » Sat May 07, 2011 1:13 pm

I totally agree with you, Jeriah. It's complete BS that, if someone breaks into YOUR house (or place of employment), takes your stuff, hurts your family, or whatever else they can think of, and then can get YOU in trouble for shooting them or chasing them down just because they were already running away.

I also don't want to sound like the internet tough guy here, but if somebody ever tries to break into my home, if I have the opportunity to do something, they had better pray that they're faster/stronger than me, because they WILL be on the receiving end of a pissed off Marine armed with whatever's handy, be it a firearm, a kitchen pot, or a chair, lol
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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by Rugger » Sat May 07, 2011 1:25 pm

This fresh pursuit law was news to me, and good to know. To me, the monetary amount is almost irrelevant. It has more to do with the fact that I was seriously violated by another individual and my life threatened. That's why the monetary amount is basically moot, it's the moral violation that would get a reaction. On the other hand, I wouldn't run out into the parking lot and be firing shots down the street, too much of a chance for unintended consequences. If I could safely and confidently pursue and stop them, that would be another matter.

Depending on the severity of what/who, how me/they were violated, and my safety while pursuing, would be the deciding factor on whether or not the individuals where pursued. The more severe one aspect becomes, the lower the threshold for pursuit.

I'm glad I live in Texas.

If you want a story of this in action, look up the story of Marcus Lutrell chasing down a couple of thugs who shot his dog. They were lucky the cops got to them first.
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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by shrapnel » Sat May 07, 2011 1:26 pm

I personally don't know if I'd feel the need to chase down someone who was fleeing with my stuff. If they had hurt me or someone I cared about in any manner, that's a different story. My stuff... well, it's just stuff. Stuff that I worked for to get, but I'd rather take what I consider to be, for me, personally, not saying anything at all about anyone else's choices, the moral high road. But that's just me.
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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by Sckitzo » Sat May 07, 2011 2:38 pm

I'm with Jeriah on this one, except for I'm more a fan of their cheesy scrambled eggs. :lol:

But really, the money is besides the point to me, it was the being robbed at gunpoint that would have brought that up to using lethal force.

As for running out to the car to get the pistol then dropping a mag as they ran... No way in hell would I have done that. If I fucked up and left my pistol in my car and then survived the robbery, that's my damn fault and I'd consider loosing $600 a cash equivalent on a reminder not to leave my pistol in the car.

This is based on the assumption that it was legal to carry in said Waffle House.

Now, would I have shot inside? I highly doubt it, way to much collateral going on, would I have taken it outside? Maybe. If the pistol was on me, I was confident the shots were going in a safe direction, then yes $600 to me would be justified, and preventing them from possibly coming back or causing more chaos that could (in)directly impact me or my family.

Or I may have just let them go, glad everyone was alive, no telling how exactly I would act given I wasn't there nor been in that situation.

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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by grand94jeep » Sat May 07, 2011 2:59 pm

A few quotes come to mind.
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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by urthshu » Sat May 07, 2011 4:52 pm

You're all correct. $600 isn't worth killing over. But I only say that because I've got more than $600 to my name. If that was all I had in the world, I'd reserve the right to amend my statement. Thus, I won't speak anything about the man's choices.
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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by Unassigned » Sat May 07, 2011 5:19 pm

I appreciate his enthusiasm, but to be honest it would have been smarter (although still dangerous) for this guy to tail the robbers and just get on a cell phone to notify police with details about the car.

Either way, I get the impression that this guy just wanted an excuse to unload a magazine.
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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by urthshu » Sat May 07, 2011 5:33 pm

I get the impression that this guy just wanted an excuse to unload a magazine
Don't we all? *sigh*
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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by Chris@MTCT » Sat May 07, 2011 6:32 pm

Reason number 367 not to sit with your back to the door, and if I remember from the video on the news I dont believe any of the robbers had a long gun. They did how ever use pretty good violence of action in the initial rush.
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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by Kutter_0311 » Sat May 07, 2011 7:54 pm

grand94jeep wrote:
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The TX 'fresh pursuit' rule extends to civilians something WI reserves for LEO's only, at least where lethal force is used.

I can understand, TX is freakin BIG...

Not sure what kind of population density the area has, but discharging a weapon in town is generally not safe.

Holding on target might result in a mobility kill, or wound/kill a perp, but still recklessly endangers others in the area.

If you manage a mobility kill, then you still have 3 guys with "automatic weapons" that are now forced to find alternate transport before the cops arrive, and they are pissed at you! This doesn't sound safe, either.

I think following them discretely while calling the cops might be your best course of action, if you feel you need to do something. That lets you help the cops catch the right guys, get everyone's stuff back, and keeps gunfire to a minimum.
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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by RedneckReverend » Thu May 12, 2011 2:23 am

My question is - Why would you leave your CCW in the car when you go into Waffle House?
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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by Red Tamarillo » Thu May 12, 2011 3:15 am

My question is- if you have a car parked there with all that boot space, why be Jack Bauer and grab your handgun?
You should grab your long arm.

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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by Red Tamarillo » Thu May 12, 2011 3:30 am

="Jeriah" Lately I've been feeling less and less sympathetic towards criminals. Like, "wah, wah, I went to a bad school, daddy beat me," whatever. Frankly, I don't give a shit. Once you decide to take what someone else has, especially by force or threat thereof, my social consciousness and concern for the well-being of the disadvantaged, takes a back seat to my basic principle of right vs. wrong.
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http://www.amazon.com/Why-They-Kill-Dis ... 0375702482" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

points out (from honest prison interviews) that not everyone who goes through bad stuff ends up bad, that there are certain choices the bad guys do along the way, and they always make a choice to commit violence based upon their interpretation of a situation. After a certain threshold there is no rehabilitation that works (taking into account for someone to change they have to want to change themselves), that's who they are.

Unfortunately a lot of judges/juries don't understand that you have to protect your society from certain personalities, that are the way they are today.
It doesn't matter how that personality was formed years ago, you have to deal with the current threat.
Societies should try and intervene early and stop the cycle from continuing with young kids. That's where you can do some good. But it doesn't happen.
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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by Chef » Thu May 12, 2011 3:58 am

Dying for, no.

Killing...well, that's a personal, ethical issue. For me, and this is just me personally here, if you steal from me, like rob me at gunpoint, whether you get twenty bucks or six hundred, your life isn't on my list of priorities. Lately I've been feeling less and less sympathetic towards criminals. Like, "wah, wah, I went to a bad school, daddy beat me," whatever. Frankly, I don't give a shit. Once you decide to take what someone else has, especially by force or threat thereof, my social consciousness and concern for the well-being of the disadvantaged, takes a back seat to my basic principle of right vs. wrong.
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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by Curtai » Thu May 12, 2011 4:03 am

Jeriah wrote:
J.C. wrote:$600 isn't worth killing or dying for.
Dying for, no.

Killing...well, that's a personal, ethical issue. For me, and this is just me personally here, if you steal from me, like rob me at gunpoint, whether you get twenty bucks or six hundred, your life isn't on my list of priorities. Lately I've been feeling less and less sympathetic towards criminals. Like, "wah, wah, I went to a bad school, daddy beat me," whatever. Frankly, I don't give a shit. Once you decide to take what someone else has, especially by force or threat thereof, my social consciousness and concern for the well-being of the disadvantaged, takes a back seat to my basic principle of right vs. wrong.

I'm not advocating anyone break the law, practice vigilantism, or anything like that, nor getting into a political debate over capital punishment etc. But I think that Texas' Right of Fresh Pursuit law sounds, from what I hear, like something I would like to see made more common, like Castle Doctrine and the no-duty-to-retreat laws. The idea that if someone breaks into your house, robs you, rapes your wife, kills your kids, or even just grabs your TV, and goes running out the back door, and as soon as their vector of movement is away from you, with your property, you're not allowed to stop the fleeing felon using any force you have...sounds like total fucking bullshit to me.

What I would actually do in that situation, I have no idea. I'm not going to play internet tough guy. But on my personal ethical meter, someone who robs me is no longer worthy of my concern for their well-being. Monetary amounts notwithstanding.

For the record, Steph disagrees with me on this one. She says I'm too angry, place too much emphasis on pride and ego, etc. So, I'm aware that I may be in the wrong here. But that's how I feel.

Here here I completely agree with you...
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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by Meat N' Taters » Thu May 12, 2011 8:31 am

What a dumbfuck. If he was a super stud with his weapon and could plant a round neatly in the brainpan of the robbers, great, please do society a favor. But this asshole empties an entire magazine like some kind of 12 year old kid playing Call of Duty. Idiot is just lucky he didn't kill any innocent bystanders. Legal? Yes. But here's hoping this guy does not renew his CHL. Also, Houston does suck ass. I hate this shithole. But I love Waffle House.

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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by the_alias » Thu May 12, 2011 9:53 am

Yes eating excessively sugary fatty foods is a danger.
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Re: The Dangers of Houston Waffle Houses

Post by Murph » Thu May 12, 2011 10:04 am

If my choices were be in a shoot-out or pay $600... I'd gladly pay that $600. That's a lot easier than dodging bullets, and a lot cheaper than legal fees.

But if I didn't have a choice, I'd at least pull up my pants first.
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