supplies are low

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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supplies are low

Post by AWSMJCBY » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:39 am

I have read through a few of these, 'looting' (or whatever you want to call it) is a BIG no no, that I understand. Yet it always seems to get brought up and then flamed... but the only other option ever offered is to 'be prepared'. Makes since this being a survivalist type forum and all, but eventually supplies will get low. Some advocate bugging out and other bugging in, we could (and I’m sure you have) argue all day about what is better.
If you bugged out and get to where you’re going, survive long enough, and I assume you bugged out to 'the wild', then maybe you have hunting as an option, a good garden in place and no one has happened by to see/destroy/steal it. But what if you haven’t seen anything to hunt in a few weeks/months… you get a hit a drought/freeze and your garden goes caput?
If you bugged in and defended what’s yours well enough and made it the year or whatever with the supplies you had.
What’s the plan for after your supplies are gone?
And of course this is a Zombie PAW… because I wrote the question :)
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Re: supplies are low

Post by mantis » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:22 am

Two things....99.9999999999999% of disasters will never last for that long. Virtually anyone with any reasonable degree of preparations will have more than enough food and water to last through virtually all probable disaster scenarios. For the miniscule liklihood of a scenario where things will not go back to normal (or some version of normal) that's where training and long term preparation comes into play - learning how to grow food, how to hunt, etc. By the time you get anywhere near the scenario that you described, there will be nothing left to loot since it will have already been looted by the hoards of unprepared who'se bug out plans centred around escaping to the local Wal-Mart/Costco/Sam's Club.
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Re: supplies are low

Post by Finch » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:45 am

ration as long as i could... then go hunting assuming there is game left.

if not starve to death with everyone else. Assuming there is nowhere better to go.

the way i see it my preps give me an advantage and an extension on life. I'm not going to live out the my "emergency closet" forever.

if my other option is eating my neighbors i think i'd rather starve.
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Re: supplies are low

Post by EricinVirginia » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:13 am

This is where the concept of the bug out comes too. If you're starving with no options, then you have to leave. Where do you go? In a ZPAW, your best bet might be fishing.

Also, this is your 2nd post... ZS hates Walmart. If you're sufficiently prepared, you should be okay far enough into the ZPAW that you can see what's coming and plan to leave or find/secure food before you run out. Part of the prep is figuring out where you'd bug out to that would provide water, security, food, and shelter. Maybe even in that order.

I keep a map of railroads handy. In ZPAW, you end up with the most zombies in population centers. Railroad tracks are often secured by fences, bridges, and have their security... and often do not cross through dense population areas. Tracks will also not get choked with car traffic and abandoned vehicles. Becuase stores and looting will fixate on Walmart, I think trains are also a great bet for restock and resupply after the apocalypse of Z-flavor or whatever flavor you think it occurs in.

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Re: supplies are low

Post by JTNieman » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:30 am

If you're prepared then supplies WON'T run low.

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Re: supplies are low

Post by AWSMJCBY » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:48 am

Oh I read enough to understand the hate of Wal-Mart :) but mostly my point is, I’m not a survivalist (then why are you here?!?!? I like zombies and helping people) and because of that, I’m under prepared and if SHTF tomorrow I would be SOL and scrambling. I'm looking to fix my under preparedness but, for self preservations sake, if the Zombies rose tomorrow.... I was looking for some options :)
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Re: supplies are low

Post by Keith B » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:56 am

Another thing that has not been mentioned is bartering and your skills. You may be running low on food, but not everybody is. What do you have to barter or trade for food? What skills do you have that can be traded for food and other supplies?
People congregate together because it is in their nature, groups will form based on each others needs. This means that goods and services will be bartered and traded, even in the PAW. we do the same thing now, only we use money.
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Re: supplies are low

Post by cjm3fl » Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:24 am

Built up your supplies as you can now. It's always slow-going at first, unless you go balls-to-the-wall buying.
When you go shopping, pick up some ready-to-eat (canned) stuff and "add-water" only foods. Make these items you normally use and rotate your stocks regularly.
Might be boring spaghetti and dry pancakes, but not as bad as going hungry.
Over time you will have built your supplies to sustain yourself (and your's) for weeks (at first) and then months.

Knowledge can also save your life.
Knowing how to grow crops in your yard, by hydroponics, building greenhouses, patio and roof-top gardening AND having supplies that will last until you can start harvesting is what I'm heading for.
Hunting, trapping, and fishing are helpful.
These kinds of knowledge might make your someone that another group might be willing to take-in, if you have to hit the road.


I have enough space to lay in about 6 month's worth of food and water in my apartment.
If things are still bad after my supplies run out, then....I don't know yet.

I'd probably have to leave.
But I'd try to leave as a civilized person.
If I slept in an old abandoned barn, I wouldn't burn it down as I was leaving.
I would not shoot at people just because we crossed paths. Defense, oh yes!! But not murder.
Finding a pallet of bottled water in the middle of the road, help myself to what I need/can carry...leave the rest for anyone coming behind me.
Passing an apple tree with lots of fruit rotting underneath, I'd believe it was "not owned" and pick some.


Anything over 6 months with my supplies are running out and no crops growing, in my thinking...the rules stop applying.
But cannibalism, stealing, raiding, murder, arson, etc are not on my list of "skills".
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Re: supplies are low

Post by bae » Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:24 pm

My plan is to farm, gather wild plant foods, hunt, and fish.

However, I live in an area where that is a pretty easy task.

The "planning ahead" part was in moving here many years ago, and learning *how* to farm, gather wild plant foods, hunt, and fish in the area.

So, no, I don't expect to have to go raiding...

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Re: supplies are low

Post by dukman » Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:05 pm

JamesCannon wrote:If you're prepared then supplies WON'T run low.
Ding Ding Ding.... we have a winnar! :mrgreen:

The only supply I need to survive is knowledge. Knowledge is power. Everything else is trivial in the long run. You can't run out of skills. Improvising. Stealth. Evasion.... those will help you on the tactical side. The practical side is foraging, purification, fire making, hunting, fishing, cultivating. These can be done without tools if need be.

I stock up on gear and supplies because I want to stack the deck in my favor. But if they toss the deck onto the ground and tell me to play 52 card pickup, I can do that as well....
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Re: supplies are low

Post by DannusMaximus » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:03 pm

AWSMJCBY wrote:If you bugged out and get to where you’re going, survive long enough, and I assume you bugged out to 'the wild', then maybe you have hunting as an option, a good garden in place and no one has happened by to see/destroy/steal it. But what if you haven’t seen anything to hunt in a few weeks/months… you get a hit a drought/freeze and your garden goes caput?
If you bugged in and defended what’s yours well enough and made it the year or whatever with the supplies you had.
What’s the plan for after your supplies are gone?
Once your food supplies are gone, you have a few options:

1. Grow/hunt/gather/trap/can your own food.
2. Get a 'job' that allows you to purchase food from others.
3. Join with other folks who have food and form a collective.
4. Begin roving about, finding food supplies that haven't been used yet.
5. Starve to death.

That's pretty much it. Your 'what if' takes out Option 1, leaving Options 2-5. Option 5 is not really a good option, to say the least. This leaves Options 2, 3, or 4. In my opinion, even if Option 4 was not technically tapdancing around 'stealing another person's stuff', it's not really a good option, because what if you don't find anything?

That leaves Options 2 and 3. So... make a plan NOW to successfully exercise Options 2 or 3.
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Re: supplies are low

Post by spacecase0 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:56 pm

I have enough food stored so that my garden can have 2 or 3 consecutive failures.
the only way that I would get low on supplies is if my place burnt down,
and I lost my car,
and all other transportation was gone so that I could not get to my second location,
and in that case I would likely go fishing or die trying.
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Re: supplies are low

Post by Spiffums » Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:26 pm

If the Zeds have come out to play.... it is no longer "looting" it is re-supply/scavenging.

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Re: supplies are low

Post by gangsta99 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:11 pm

If it comes down to you and your family surviving you will do whatever it takes to survive. This is when looting is no longer a crime.
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Re: supplies are low

Post by aus.templar » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:31 pm

okay guys, the last couple of comments are implying that looting is all fine and good if you can rationalise it to yourself.
as long as there is any sniff of society going back to semi-normal then there are going to be consequences for stealing what you have stolen.

now if it is a situation where:
-90% of the population is dead.
-there is no1 to 'buy' supplies from
-there is no government structure
-the collapse is global, not local or national
-what you are taking is obviously abandoned by previous owners (ie not taking from another living person)

and if all the above apply then i guess there's not much i can say against looting, because in that sort of situtation then i too would do anything i could to obtain supplies and if there's no1 to buy from or trade with and i havent been able to secure my own food supply then im not left with any other choices
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Re: supplies are low

Post by Trolic » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:59 pm

Hello new here (already posted in the into section) this is also a hot taopic in some other places I have been to. I have lurked a few days and read some of your other threads dealing with this subject. Has anyone really sat down and defined looting?

The online definition
1.spoils or plunder taken by pillaging, as in war.
2.anything taken by dishonesty, force, stealth, etc.: a burglar's loot.
3.a collection of valued objects: The children shouted and laughed as they opened their Christmas loot.
4.Slang. money: You'll have a fine time spending all that loot.
5.act of looting or plundering: to take part in the loot of a conquered city.

I believe Looting is taking anything that is not yours AND belongs to someone else.
Now most of the discussion on looting is in the context of a PAW (I like this term, I use TEOTWAWKI) I would define PAW as having no real government or law left pretty much every man for himself. Maybe a few small towns might survive intact but as we see in the movies and most books when Zed comes out to play they pretty much screw everyone and everything over. If you have hordes of Zed's runnign around you also have many people that are no longer with us. What is the legal status of their belongings in a PAW situation? I say first come first get. Everyday there will be fewer and fewer people and more Zed. We as survivors will need every bit of help we can get.

Now prepardness is the best way to survive any disaster be it a short term one like Katrina or a PAW. But prepardness isnt just about storing gear. You have to also prepare some for the unexpected. Others have already mentioned you can lose all you have in a fire or be forced to bugout with just the clothes on your back. The response to this has ranged from taking what you find (looting) trading your stills and or labor, joining another group. All of these are valid and good options. Now people have talked about skills you can learn to make yourself an asset in a PAW to help you survive. Trade has been mentioned BUT if you only have the clothes on your back you dont have much to work with. Joining another group would be putting a lot of faith in the goodness of others. so why not just rely on the government to help you? I think Looting is a valid topic to discuss what is looting in your eyes? what is acceptable and what isn't. If you end up with others that have no supplies how far would you allow them to go in looting? would you or should you stay with a group that is looting.


I honestly believe some looting should be done by prepared people to help us rebuild civilization.
You are in a PAW around 10% of world pop left. Should you steal the Mona Lisa? If it's in danger and you can maybe preserve it, is this wrong. The same with books.

It's 1 year after PAW you are out of supplies and have left you suburban home. You are looking for a place to settle and try and survive. You find an abandoned farm is it ok for you to move in?

I ask these in this way because most of you I believe will say yes. I then ask whats the diffrence then in this scenero.

2 days into PAW and some gangbangers kill my neighbor Bob, just drovwe by and shot him. I go out and try and help but he's already dead. Bob has no family with him, wife's dead kids are in another state. Is it alright for me to go and take any food or other things from Bob's house?

If so why?


Sorry I do tend to ramble, as I talk to you guys more I will learn better how to post here and my posts will be more like what you are used to.

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Re: supplies are low

Post by TheLastRifleMan » Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:29 pm

gangsta99 wrote:If it comes down to you and your family surviving you will do whatever it takes
to survive. This is when looting is no longer a crime.
First warning to you and Spiffums. Looting is illegal and thus is against forum rules. Please familiarize yourself with them here if you have not done so:
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 44&t=19895" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any further talk of looting or the concept thereof will result in this thread being locked and buried.

That is all.
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Re: supplies are low

Post by Trolic » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:16 pm

Ok in my post I was trying to see what is acceptable about it? is their a diffrent term or in is it just never considered to talk about taking anything that you dont own before PAW?


I think a lot of your discussions that get people riled is just a misuse of the word?

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Re: supplies are low

Post by Finch » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:25 pm

Trolic wrote:Ok in my post I was trying to see what is acceptable about it? is their a diffrent term or in is it just never considered to talk about taking anything that you dont own before PAW?


I think a lot of your discussions that get people riled is just a misuse of the word?
im not a mod but here is my take on looting becasue frankly im tired of the "well its ok because [X excuse]"

Looting is bad, illegal and theft. Will there come a time when survivors have to make a hard choice between looting and death? Maybe.

Do we need to have thread after thread talking about every arm chair commandos plans to loot their neighbors houses. Absolutely not.

We are here to talk about being prepared (and zombies) not how to loot.

The bottom line is there is no value in talking about looting.


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Re: supplies are low

Post by aus.templar » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:17 pm

Finch wrote:
Trolic wrote:Ok in my post I was trying to see what is acceptable about it? is their a diffrent term or in is it just never considered to talk about taking anything that you dont own before PAW?


I think a lot of your discussions that get people riled is just a misuse of the word?
im not a mod but here is my take on looting becasue frankly im tired of the "well its ok because [X excuse]"

Looting is bad, illegal and theft. Will there come a time when survivors have to make a hard choice between looting and death? Maybe.

Do we need to have thread after thread talking about every arm chair commandos plans to loot their neighbors houses. Absolutely not.

We are here to talk about being prepared (and zombies) not how to loot.

The bottom line is there is no value in talking about looting.


My .02

+1

also like to add that you cannot plan what you will be left in the aftermath of a PAW-initiating event, so if you waste your time thinking about it before the PAW it probably isnt still going to be there when TSHTF. much better off, physically, legally and morally to pick what you think you'll need now and stock up as much as you can.
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Re: supplies are low

Post by Trolic » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:18 am

Ok I am cool with all that

But here is where I am comming from. you are get down on someone pretty hard when they mention looting and from some of the threads I have read they are not talking about stealing from a neighbor but thinking in terms of a resupply later. Out of bullet for their Bug out gun they go scavaging for more.

Many of you have also stated your plans to move to another location after things settle down and some of those locations are not yours. People planning on moving out into the wilderness will be taking someone's land. I bring up the theft thought to ask more questions about what is wrong and what is right later after what ever type of PAW happend (that is so much better then TEOTWAWKI).

Lets say you have reached you hidy hole in the wilderness (only for those who don't already own the land) and you build your house start farming the land. You are rebuild your life, years go by and one day someone shows up you don't know. You are on his land he bought this land years before PAW so that if things went south he and his family would have a place to go. (lets pretent he can prove it) Now he wants you off his land. And since you were using his land without his permission he wants your house as payment. What is the right thing to do?

I hang with agroup that likes to look deeper into the right and wrong of actions and discuss them not just for the scenero but for now. To see how we can now improve things and our interaction with others.


I think a new term needs to be used Looting is bad using something you find that you need isnt if no one else ownes it anymore.

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Re: supplies are low

Post by Trolic » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:35 am

Sorry for double post but it wouldnt let me continue above.

With the recient disasters in Hati and Chili looting is a hot topic in the news. I personally believe the news purposly hipes things up for entertainment and to get headlines.

I can't currently find the pic but there was one of Fox about the looting in Hati and what got me was it showed a guy in the back ground carring what looked like a roll of maybe carpet, heavy blanket or some such. Fox in their title were labeling all these guys as looters. Most people when they hear this word immediatly think theives stealing what isnt theirs and are quick to say maybe the military should open fire on them.

But ask yourself this is he really looting? maybe that is the carpet from his house. Does anyone stop and ask? No they assume that some one talking about looting is taking something from soneone else. If a person points and says looter people see a looter. Two stories below that one was about the conditions for the survivors in Hati who were without food, water and shelter. They showed pictures of them living in the open (fear of after shocks) with nothing but plastic as cover. If you looked closly you would notice most of the material was salvaged or to me it looked that way, a mismash of tarps and plastci sheeting. Bedding hung up to dry and provid additional shade. How do we know the guy I first talked about wasn't carring this form his house which is now rubble to where his family is currently living? We dont but we (generalizing) appear to easly condem him along with those carring out T.V's.

Look closer at the context of the argument and not the exact word used. As you should be able to tell I didn't do too well in English class.


And all those who say they have everything they need to survive are wrong at some point there will come a timewhere you will need some item and not have it. And it will most likly be something that others dont have. I am not trying to make "looting" a good thing. Just don't like a word having so much power that people will not have a discussion because someone used it

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Re: supplies are low

Post by FanaticalModerate » Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:26 am

ZS has a charitable mission, and having threads filled with what you want to talk about it will interfere with that reputation and mission. Since even normal mature people on the internet lose their sense of discipline when they have anonymity, the forum has to take this very seriously. Honorably, it tries to avoid a "zero tolerance" mentality, but many posters seem hell-bent on ignoring boundaries.
Trolic wrote:Ok I am cool with all that

But... (snip) Leads into two long posts...
Old interrogation tip: Always doubt anything said right before the word "but."

Why is looting so important to you?
You mention you were just banned from another forum because of it...
It was your very first post here (so you joined ZS specifically to make that post)...
You've read a warning posted from a mod right in this thread
... and two other ZS'rs have tried to help.

Why is taking stuff so important to you that you'll create increasingly distorted scenarios and explanations in order to justify it?
It's either serious immaturity or trolling. Your thread with the broken down car and the can w/out can-opener is respectable, so you have something constructive to offer - add "following the forum rules" to your repertoire and things will be fine.
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Re: supplies are low

Post by CitizenZ » Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:45 am

Prep.
Improvise.
Make do.
Pray.
Suffer.
Beg.
Borrow.
Steal.
Die.

In that order.
"Victory awaits him who has everything in order, luck people call it. Defeat is certain for him who has neglected to take the necessary precautions in time; this is called bad luck"- The South Pole, Roald Amundsen - 1912

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