Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by Kabong30 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:57 pm

Regulator wrote:Come on Bluesman, you should know better than to ask questions that require people to think outside of the box. After all, this is only a preparedness forum. You can’t expect people to consider the possibility that things might not break down the way they prepared for. That just wouldn’t make sense.

How could you even consider sleeping in an abandoned house without the owners permission. It may be 3 years into a post apocalyptic world where you haven’t seen another person for weeks but can you imagine the horror and shame you’d feel if you sought shelter in a house that someone owned once? You either sleep at home or someplace else you have permission to. Sure human instinct would make you want to seek shelter but you must reject those feelings. We have laws in this country for your protection. Just because the law makers, the law enforcers and most of the people in general are gone doesn’t give you the right to break the LAW. It was perfect when it was written and dammit it’s gonna be perfect forever. It doesn’t matter that the game, reality, the environment, world… pretty much every damn thing has changed. You must obey the LAW. There is no room for you to adapt to your new surroundings. Obsatcle aren’t to be overcome. Don’t try to improve your circumstances no matter how bleak your situation may become. The LAW trumps self preservation.

In order to help you pen more forum appropriate hypothetical situations I have thought of a couple other unlawful situations you probably shouldn’t discuss.

Using state parks and forests without a permit would be trespassing.
Waking across any land you don’t own would be trespassing, unless it was public land.
Using anything “public”, including land, would be trespassing because you are no longer paying taxes.
Making a fire without a burn permit could very well be illegal in your area.
Using any type of boat without current registration, yep, illegal.
Same thing for your vehicles, you have less than one year to drive them legally.
Gonna hunt you up some food? Get your hunting license now. Only a couple months and then you’re poaching.
Same for fishing.
Killing Zombies, legally they’re still people.
I’m sure we can think of more.

The LAW is for your protection. Be happy you live in a free country.

Do you understand that beyond the fact that we don't want to encourage illegal behavior that it's not discussed because there are people that are just looking for reasons to down on this place? That because of the charitable nature of the group that we don't want to portray negative behavior amongst our members as then many organizations would refuse our participation or help? This has all been stated repeatedly, it's not that tough, I don't think there's any need to be snarky about it.
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by ZombieGranny » Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:08 pm

When posting a scenario you may not like the answers you receive, well too darn bad. It's 'what would you do', not 'parrot back what I want to hear'.

If that house is open to the elements and abandoned it is full of animals.
If it is not full of animals, someone is in control of it.
If someone is in control of it, keep the heck out or you're liable to face a shotgun.

Don't believe me? Go on vacation for a week leaving your doors and windows open.
Depending on where you live when you get home you will get to chase out a nice assortment of spiders, mosquitoes, flies, birds, snakes, cats, squirrels, mice, rats...
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by Doctor Jest » Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:12 pm

A valid question has been raised by this thread.

We do have a rule here on ZS about not posting illegal activities, and it is true that we have a very strong interest in keeping the forum clean of such discussion to preserve our working relationships with various charities. It is also true that almost any hypothetical situation involving the PAW would involve something illegal, as has been pointed out; even hunting squirrel out of season is not legal. We don't want to overapply the rule so much that it prevents useful discussion. Historically the "no discussion of illegal activities" has been to prevent the discussion of how to build explosives, how to modify weapons so that they are fully automatic, not condoning murder of live humans even in the PAW, and similar things. This is a more grey area.

I will discuss this with the other mods and get back to this thread once we have reached a consensus (that may take a while). I ask for your patience in the mean time.

Thanks.


Locked pending mod review.

Oh, and congratulations, ZombieGranny, on the new little one. :D
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by Doctor Jest » Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:31 pm

As previously stated, we want to avoid discussions of illegal activities on this forum, but at the same time we do not want to completely stifle discussion. I have a compromise solution that I am going to suggest, and I am going to ask that you folks follow it to try to allow this interesting thread to continue.

The problem is that in the PAW many of the normal laws go out the window. No one will care if you go over the speed limit after civilization collapses. No one will care if you hunt squirrels out of season, or jaywalk, or urinate in public. The laws currently on the books prohibiting those activities will be out the window. But...

1. Do not advocate or post information on how to break laws, in current times. For example, do not post information on how to build silencers, how to modify weapons to fire fully automatically, how to grow weed in your basement, how to make meth, how to distill your own moonshine, how to build deadly mantraps, how to rig cars to explode, etc. Any information of this type could be misused by people reading this forum, and we don't want the blowback that would result if someone did something stupid that they heard about on ZS.

2. Do not advocate courses of action, even in hypothetical circumstances, that violate the rights, persons, or property of others in a way that societies throughout history have agreed are immoral. While there have not always been laws about parking against the flow of traffic or littering, there have been laws against rape, arson, murder, theft, incest, and other crimes throughout history. From the Code of Hammurabi to the Torah to the Twelve Tables of Roman Law to the Chinese Tang Code to France's Napoleonic Code to Gremany's Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch, there have always been codes under which people have lived. Those elements common to the majority of those codes are to be considered to still be in force, even in the PAW. Those laws particular to only one code (for example, the dietary laws found in the Torah) are not in this category. But every civilization has recognized that burning down someone's house, occupied or not, out of spite, not in a time of war, is over the line.

Please do not post comments in which you suggest behavior that would violate those codes. In any event, even in the PAW, if someone caught you committing these types of acts, they would probably deal with you harshly. For example, some of you may have read the book "Patriots" by James Rawles. In that book, the protagonists immediately execute a couple of men who they catch with body parts of children they have cannibalized.

Use your discretion. If you have any doubts, PM a mod and ask before posting. Thank you.

I'll reopen this thread now. Thanks
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by cjm3fl » Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:41 pm

Hey...did ya feel that,,,?!?!!?

Felt like a good thing happening :D
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by Regulator » Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:48 pm

Kabong30
I understand why the rules are in place, as do most people I would think. I know ZS has an image to maintain. I don’t break the law and wouldn’t encourage anyone else to.

However, at some point, especially 3 years into ZPAW, you just might have to break a law. To deny this inevitability you are simply deluding yourself and placing a handicap on yourself.

“Discussing” is very much different than “condoning” and “encouraging”.


Doctor Jest
Good explanation of the differences between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. That should be added to the rules page for the benefit of people who haven’t read this thread. Well thought and well said.

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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by Stab74 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:15 am

cjm3fl wrote:Hey...did ya feel that,,,?!?!!?

Felt like a good thing happening :D
We've needed a decision like this for a long time. I feel like the ZS Supreme Court just made a ruling in our favor. Not Cletus's though. I think Cletus think's I'm on his side. Hey Cletus! Get off my side! :lol:
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by Bluesman » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:01 am

The ruling was well made. Bravo.

I'm still a little shocked that this simple scenario of mine got sent all the way to the ZS Supreme Court. Wow.
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by Stab74 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:32 am

Ok to get this discussion back on track I'm gonna post a couple pics of an abandoned house from the movie "The Book Of Eli". If you haven't seen it this is kinda a SPOILER so you might want to skip it:

Anyway this discussion made me think of a house like this. Quality is kinda crappy but its a house sorta in the middle of nowhere. As seen from a hill:

Image

As they walk up to it you get a better idea what it looks like:

Image

The sign off to the right says "Absolutely No Trespassers". In this case I suppose I would not enter the house unless I'd surveilled it for several days ahead of time. Even then I'd be nervous about approaching it. If you've seen the movie then you know its NOT abandoned and things sorta end up not so good for the heros. However they are desperate and you never know if you might end up in a similar situation. Hey at least they knocked first :) .
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by bonanacrom » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:47 am

They knock on the door. Best the make sure it's abandoned before you squat there for the night.
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by SMoAF » Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:35 am

Vicarious_Lee wrote:I'm taking the comfy bed. If I'm in a house, I'm gonna sleep like I'm in a house.

Maybe straighten up before I leave. It's the civilized thing to do.
Also, if possible, leave $20-$100 in cash for rent, or cleaning expenses, or for damages, or whatever. I'd say pick them some flowers or something, but that'd just be wasted. You might leave them a nice note, like "Dear homeowner: Thank you for putting a roof over my head in a bad time. I appreciate it, and tried to not make a mess". Don't be an asshole, and leave a note that says "Dear Dipshit: you're a horrible housekeeper, and the sofa smells of mildew." I'm sure they already have ONE mother.
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:19 am

Regulator wrote:Doctor Jest
Good explanation of the differences between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. That should be added to the rules page for the benefit of people who haven’t read this thread. Well thought and well said.
+ a bunch
SMoAF wrote:
Vicarious_Lee wrote:I'm taking the comfy bed. If I'm in a house, I'm gonna sleep like I'm in a house.

Maybe straighten up before I leave. It's the civilized thing to do.
Also, if possible, leave $20-$100 in cash for rent, or cleaning expenses, or for damages, or whatever. I'd say pick them some flowers or something, but that'd just be wasted. You might leave them a nice note, like "Dear homeowner: Thank you for putting a roof over my head in a bad time. I appreciate it, and tried to not make a mess". Don't be an asshole, and leave a note that says "Dear Dipshit: you're a horrible housekeeper, and the sofa smells of mildew." I'm sure they already have ONE mother.
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by BEar667 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:25 am

DannusMaximus wrote:
Stab74 wrote:
DannusMaximus wrote:
Cletus Vandamme wrote:(After making sure nobody is in the house) I'd sleep in the furthest second story room from the stairs. I'd also break things all over the house so that if anybody came in I'd hear them (hopefully) manuvering through debris. In the event somebody makes it the second story, if they're searching rooms, I have more time to get the drop on them or prepare, or escape out the window.
Regardless, after ransacking the house for any possibly useful supplies the next day, I'd torch the house.
Wow. Felony breaking and entering, felony theft, destruction of property, and arson, all in one day... :shock:

Activities which are not really encouraged by forum rules.
Oh noooooos its Zombie Liability Squad! So what room were you hiding in? The walk in closet? The attic?

I think we should start off all these types of threads like this "So you are a crewman on the starship USS Enteprise and someone made a ZPAW holodeck program that went something like this......(enter survival scenario).....what do you do?" And yes of course the safety protocols are still in place! Would that satisfy everyone?
That's really witty. No. Really. :|

It's easy to say "When the end comes, I'm going to wait until places have cleared out, break into places, steal shit, then use my big gunz and mad gun skillz to fortify the area and start my kingdom!!" Harder to be prepared ahead of time.

Stealing stuff and burning stuff down is not a plan. And trust me every scenario presented like the one by the OP (and trust me again, there have been many of them) ends up the same - - people want tacit approval to do illegal shit and show their badassery at such things as "tactical urban abandoned village stalking" or "broken into house strategic fortificationization".

If that's awesome cool in your book, so be it. The forum's rules exist for a reason, and have done a pretty good job keeping the ass-hattery down during my limited tenure.
It is a hypothetical situation. No one is advocating any illegal activity. You bucking for a Mod Job?
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by DannusMaximus » Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:31 pm

BEar667 wrote:It is a hypothetical situation. No one is advocating any illegal activity. You bucking for a Mod Job?
No.

Read the post by Doctor Jest for additional information.
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by Finch » Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:42 pm

i feel vindicated

sorta like after the Heller decision
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by taz-hein » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:09 pm

if you are hypotheticalizing, why now just make it your own abandoned house?

you are bugging out and you come upon your second home that you haven't been too since the PAW and oh, my someone's been eating my porrage and someone's been sitting in my chair and low and behold someones been sleeping in my bed and they're still there....

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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by Stab74 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:17 pm

taz-hein wrote:you are bugging out and you come upon your second home that you haven't been too since the PAW and oh, my someone's been eating my porrage and someone's been sitting in my chair and low and behold someones been sleeping in my bed and they're still there....
LOL! Now thats just ridiculous! You know with all the animals running in and out of the house that all the pre paw porridge (PPP) would be long gone. At least the good flavors.....maybe some regular left.
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by Browning 35 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:28 pm

Bluesman wrote: Assume its year 3 of the ZPAW....You're hiking through the ZPAW by yourself on a late spring day, following some old railroad tracks. (Temps are running mid 60s0- 80s). The faint rumble of thunder can be heard and you can smell the rain that is coming. You have two hours until dark.

1. Do you move in and look for shelter or are you going to pitch camp in some remote area?

(Assuming you approach the house)
The house front faces east and has the spraypainted markings of a house searched by govt. Agencies. Apparently the town was evacuated sometime in the past. The front door is closed, but the lock has been forced and is broken. You sweep the house and find nothing dangerous or of value.

In the living room there is some furniture including a couch. You could put something in front of the door and sleep on the couch. There are two windows looking east and one looking west.

The master bedroom on the north end of the house has a broken window overlooking the backyard choked with tall weeds. There is a bed in the room. There is a walk-in closet that could you could sleep in as well.

The small bedroom on the other end of the house has bunkbeds which would be are usable if a bit small. There is one window looking over the backyard.

The kitchen offers nothing but a tiled floor to sleep on. There is a small window looking east over the sink. But overhead is an access to the attic crawlspace that will a bit of effort could be used for the evening with the only outside opening being a small louvered vent on the northside.
There is also a door in the kitchen that leads down to a slightly dank unfinished basement with a bare cement floor. There are two small retangular windows high up on the west wall. An old washing machine grants you access to one one of them
2 Where would you sleep in this house and why?
Yes, I'd make use of the house.

No sense in probably getting VERY wet when there's a perfectly good abandoned house that's likely to be dry. Engaging in a code of conduct that's way out of date, that doesn't matter anymore and that would do a Harrison Ford movie character proud because you're trying to adhere to some bullshit code of ethics that's totally pointless has never made sense to me. I would still have a code of ethics to guide me, but they would be MY ethics and they would suit my environment (burning down a house merely for the hell of it wouldn't be within my code of ethics though, that pretty much falls under the 'Why the hell would I do that???' category. It's not like many new houses are going to be built in the near future, it would just alert people to my position and it would completely eliminate the chance to possibly use it again in the future).

The first question that I would want answered after I swept the house to make sure that there really wasn't anyone living there and to make sure that there were no small animals that had taken up housekeeping in there is to find out how big that vent in the attic above the kitchen is?

If it's big enough for me and my weapons/gear to fit through should someone (or several someone's) come into the house and I absolutely needed a way out I'd grab several cushions off the couch and sleep up in the crawl space. More than likely IF someone did come into the house I'd just try and stay quiet, but I like leaving my options open (Fight : Able to ambush them from a superior position if they turn out to be hostile - Or Flight : Getting through the vent or window to the outside and alternating between shooting and running my ass off because there are too many of them for me to handle and they're hostile). If the vent in the attic isn't big enough for me and my gear/weapons to fit through as an emergency exit out of the house then the second option would be the small bedroom with the bunk beds and the window overlooking the backyard after I dragged the bigger bed in there (might as well be comfortable) and dragged the bunk beds into the living room and hallway and arranged them for someone to trip over should they enter the house.

I wouldn't barricade the door with anything because if someone did come then they'd automatically know someone was there. However I'd probably put a bunch of debris and trash that was likely to make quite a bit of noise that any person walking over or by would likely trip on and make some noise. I've noticed in that houses that have things on the floor (broken glass, empty cans, small pieces of trash like foil or potato chip bags that crinkle, loose pieces of wood, small bits of gravel, stacked up books or magazines, glass knick knacks, kitchen utensils/bowls/plates, cardboard boxes filled with various crap that's totally useless, electronic appliances with their cords just laying there slightly in the way etc etc) or that are crammed full of furniture that you're likely to tip something over or make some sort of noise even if you're being careful and it's bright in there. I'd still want it to appear as though it were abandoned though. So I'd arrange things where the doors didn't appear to be truly barricaded, but where the living room and the hallway would be arranged to make some noise where anyone walking by would be channeled towards certain areas of the room and where they would trip something over or step on something that would alert me to the fact that they were there.

Priority number one is staying dry, otherwise I wouldn't stay there to begin with.

Priority number two is to reduce light and noise that might alert someone to me being in the house. (lighting a fire even if it had a fireplace would be a big 'No-No', that would literally send smoke signals to whoever was in the area and let them know that someone was in the house).

Priority number three is staying in one of the rooms where I'd have a way out and where I'd have the upper hand from a strategic sense and where I could arrange trash/debris and furniture just so to channel people into certain areas so they'd make some noise and trip over stuff (I'd try not to make it too obvious though, just messy and crammed full of furniture and looted with things strewn about all over the place). With either of these places I'd have the jump on anyone entering. Either I'd be above them in the crawl space or they'd have to walk down a hallway of some sort.

After the storm or possible rain/bad weather passed I'd keep going and leave it like I arranged it (I might need to use it again someday).
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by Aikibiker » Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:17 pm

The reason I would take the attic (see my post before the shitstorm) is that I know in the event of having to do an emergency egress I can go through the ceiling into an unoccupied room then out through a window after checking through my spyholes to ensure the room I am dropping into is indeed empty. I could also enlarge the vent if need be using my camping hatchet/khukuri/bigass chopping implement that I would definitely have on me in a ZPAW and make my escape that way. I could even go out through the roof if absolutely necessary.

The attic is in my opinion the best option because it allows me access to every area of the house and ways to exit the house entirely.
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by TravisM.1 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:50 pm

If I'm positively, absolutely sure it's abandoned? Damn skippy, I'd shelter there.
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by Busto963 » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:13 pm

Bluesman wrote:
You use you field glasses and scan the town thorourghly and detect no signs of zeds or people anywhere in the town.

1. Do you move in and look for shelter or are you going to pitch camp in some remote area?"
Unless I am facing some really bad weather or other compelling reason to enter; I won't even go near.

In spite of my preference to bug in, an unknown urban area offers just an amazing number of places to hide, and every advantage a defender could ask for. You could spend days conducting a good 360 deg reconnaissance and still miss something that could get you killed.

If I do go, It is likely to be go in, do what I came for and get out. I would be more tempted to spend the night in a partially damaged structure (obviously not one that would collapse on me) that offered some shelter rather than living it up an obvious target awaiting the the return of the raiders that tore up the other buildings to begin with.

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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by Creek Rat » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:58 am

This doesn't really answer any questions but I see this PAW housing situation about once a week. I live about 20 miles from Pitcher, Oklahoma, home of the nations largest Superfund cleanup site, and pass right through the center of town on my way to visit some of Oklahoma's finest Native American gaming establishments.

This is an entire town of abandoned houses. They based an episode of "Life After People" around Pitcher, OK in early February. The entire area on both sides of the state line is absolutely devastated; first by decades of poverty, pollution and undermining, a tornado last year and the final buyout of two entire towns.

With all the abandoned homes and building there are many signs of squatters, creek rats and meth heads everywhere. A two lane highway passes right through town with a four way stop still in the center of old downtown. let me tell you it is CREEPY heading back from the casino late at night and see people moving around in the dark around the empty houses.

I personally can't imagine a situation that would lead me to this kind of life. It would take the so-call "three years into PAW" to get me into necessary state of mind to go from living the civilized life in a real home to squatting in a dark abandoned miners shack with god knows what going on in the dark around you.

People can fantasize all they like about surveillance and clearing a house room by room but I think if three years into PAW and you're looking at a place like Pitch, OK as a good place to hang your hat you are NOT the same person you are today. You'll be following something closer to the hobo code than what you've picking up from hours of playing Modern Warfare 2.

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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by cjm3fl » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:22 am

In a pinch...in a future 3 years into PAW, yeah...I'd spend the night in an abandoned house.
It would have to be structurally sound (walls and roof) and have no signs of human habitation.

As long as I knew it had no owner(s), human or animal to claim it, I'd do it.
It would be only for one night, and it would have to be a night where there was bad weather happening/inbound.

I'd leave it as I found it when I headed out the next morning.
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Stab74
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Re: Taking Shelter In An Abandoed House

Post by Stab74 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:14 am

Creek Rat wrote:This doesn't really answer any questions but I see this PAW housing situation about once a week. I live about 20 miles from Pitcher, Oklahoma, home of the nations largest Superfund cleanup site, and pass right through the center of town on my way to visit some of Oklahoma's finest Native American gaming establishments.

This is an entire town of abandoned houses. They based an episode of "Life After People" around Pitcher, OK in early February. The entire area on both sides of the state line is absolutely devastated; first by decades of poverty, pollution and undermining, a tornado last year and the final buyout of two entire towns.

With all the abandoned homes and building there are many signs of squatters, creek rats and meth heads everywhere. A two lane highway passes right through town with a four way stop still in the center of old downtown. let me tell you it is CREEPY heading back from the casino late at night and see people moving around in the dark around the empty houses.
Ooooo desperate people in need of a charismatic leader! Bartertown begins! Seriously that sounds fascinating. Gonna be driving through OK to visit a friend at Fort Sill when this Iraq vacation is over. Might have to drive through.
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