Home Invasion or RAID?

[Tater Raider]

Eheh! Hunting license, gun license, a hunting course, a shooting course, periodical controls, every year renovating (and paying) the licenses... not too much easy

I didn't say easy, just doable if that's a direction you wish to go. A lot of times all it takes to do something you want is to want it enough to make sacrifices in another area - for me it's been eating fast food and ready to eat, just heat meals.

[EnricaDoom]

Oh, understood now
Up until now, i'ts not a priority for me, so I can live without a gun. And the rifle is too much big to use for me I prefear a pistol, but it is really difficult to obtain and the sacrifice exceeds the gain...

[squinty]

You mean this?

Looks like it. I don't personally know anyone involved. I was just told it was an extended family member of my buddy. Glad an apology was issued. Mistakes happen, and I can see even a well trained, well intentioned person making that sort of horrible mistake when trying to get somewhere real fast and expecting to go straight into a violent situation.

I bet it's easy to make mistakes, esp. in stressful situations where you go expecting violence. But, the professionals we pay to do such things are liable for their mistakes, and should be held accountable when they make them. A "professional" is someone who is supposed to have the skill, expertise, and judgment to assess a situation make the right decisions in his professed field of knowledge. Brain surgeons do not get to say "brain surgery is hard" if they engage in malpractice, nor do pilot's get to say "well, flyin' ain't easy!" if they make a mistake that crashes a plane, because they are supposed to be able to do those hard things proficiently.

In the dog shooting case, the homeowner was ordered to the ground, the dog shot, then the officer upbraided the homeowner for not restraining the dog.
What do you do when the guy pointing the gun at you gives two conflicting orders in rapid sequence, or you're told to do two different things simultaneously by two different people pointing guns at you?

[rjm]

One of the things that concerns me about some of the suggestions here is the idea of being able to reliably ID LEO once they break down your door without warning.

I'm sure most people are far more tactically fit than I am, but as an average Joe nobody, even with 12 years military xp, I wouldn't know a cop from Ronald McDonald if he kicked my door down in the middle of the night while I was sitting on the couch picking my nose. For me, that door goes down and I don't care if it's the Publishers Clearing House Prize Patrol, I'm opening fire.

Also, and I know this will piss the LEO members off to no end, but if anyone (and yes I do mean anyone) so much as pointed a gun at one of my dogs, I would see it as the same thing as if they pointed it at one of my kids (yes I have kids, so I know the difference). My dogs are family; they sleep inside, I feed them the best I can afford, and I never hesitate to treat them at the vet. If someone, even a cop, shot one, they'd have to shoot me next because it would take the entire swat team to pull me off them.

Fortunatly, I live in a rural area where mistaken residences are unheard of. Houses here are known as "The X-family Ranch", so if we had a rash of no-knocks, it would be criminals doing criminal things. Still, I question a person's ability, after a hard day, dealing with all the domestic stuff, relaxing on the lazyboy, reliably IDing a legit LEO smashing through the front door with the wife/kids screaming and the dog(s) howling, fumbling with your gun, etc.

[Captain_Obvious]

He shouldn't have shot the dog if it was just standing there, but if a dog tries to bite me I'm going to shoot the fuck out of it. It sounds like the LEO was too geeked up and didn't assess the situation correctly.

[RedneckReverend]

Per the original scenario, If I saw that there was only one vehicle, no black and whites, no uniforms on the perimeter to keep the neighbors out of the line of fire, no EMT's down the block just in case, then I'm assuming it's not real cops. With that assumption mad, I have to assume that a gang using this tactic would not want to leave any pesky witnesses behind and everyone in the house is dead unless I get very lucky with my timing, cover, and shot placement. But he said I was in my bathroom, which opens to my bedroom, so I'm two steps from two loaded 9mm's and an SKS with a full mag. Hopefully I keep my family alive even if I have to die in the process.

Of course I also live in a location with no neighbors so I know they didn't get the wrong house. More likely they chose it because no one will see their evil deeds.

[RoneKiln]

Tonight I was just told of a friends family member that had a LEO come charging into the backyard with their gun drawn yesterday. The young fellow was playing frisbee with his dog in the back yard. Young man put his hands up, the dog barked, and the dog took one bullet to the chest. I am told the dog did not charge, but I'm hearing this story second hand. I have never met the fellow that just lost his dog. I was shown a picture of the dog wrapped in a towel.

The Officer was at the wrong address. He was allegedly trying to get to a domestic disturbance call that was believed to be quite violent and in need of immediate intervention. My friends family doubts this, but they're a bit emotional right now. I believe the LEO's statement. It's possible for a "raid" to happen off the cuff with very little time to prepare and control the scene. Sometimes officers were needed somewhere minutes ago, and they are doing their best to get there and minimize the damage. It's easy to make mistakes when lives are hanging by seconds and they have to get there impossibly fast.

No apology has been given. The young man has been told by the Austin police that it's his own fault for not having the dog restrained. In his own yard.

This reinforces for me that just cause I've not done anything wrong, I'm not going to assume a LEO storming onto my property is fake.

I was corrected this weekend about my buddy's ties to this. Turns out he's not related to the fellow that lost the dog, but to one of the young man's best friends that he called immediately after, and was then one of the first non-LEO's to arrive. Doesn't change my point any or its relevance. Just wanted to admit I was mistaken and there has now been an additional layer of the telephone game added to the version I heard.

Still, a "raid" could be a spur of the moment unplanned action and they could still kick in the wrong door.

[RedneckReverend]

It's just my opinion but I hold that if armed government employees come storming into the wrong house threatening people at gunpoint and/or killing their pets then there should be some heads rolling and careers ended. Some mistakes are just not tolerable. If they can fire a Chili's waitress for grabbing the wrong daquari and giving rum to a 5 year old then why can we not fire the LEO responsible for going in weapons hot on an innocent family?

[TDW586]

It's just my opinion but I hold that if armed government employees come storming into the wrong house threatening people at gunpoint and/or killing their pets then there should be some heads rolling and careers ended. Some mistakes are just not tolerable. If they can fire a Chili's waitress for grabbing the wrong daquari and giving rum to a 5 year old then why can we not fire the LEO responsible for going in weapons hot on an innocent family?

Where did you get the idea that careers are not ruined by this kind of thing?

[Tater Raider]

It's just my opinion but I hold that if armed government employees come storming into the wrong house threatening people at gunpoint and/or killing their pets then there should be some heads rolling and careers ended. Some mistakes are just not tolerable. If they can fire a Chili's waitress for grabbing the wrong daquari and giving rum to a 5 year old then why can we not fire the LEO responsible for going in weapons hot on an innocent family?

Where did you get the idea that careers are not ruined by this kind of thing?

I agree with both of these statements.

I also think the whole no-knock process needs to be evaluated on the basis of getting a bad address from an informant and busting into the home of a person who has committed no crime. If that's too political mods can feel free to remove.

[TDW586]

It's just my opinion but I hold that if armed government employees come storming into the wrong house threatening people at gunpoint and/or killing their pets then there should be some heads rolling and careers ended. Some mistakes are just not tolerable. If they can fire a Chili's waitress for grabbing the wrong daquari and giving rum to a 5 year old then why can we not fire the LEO responsible for going in weapons hot on an innocent family?

Where did you get the idea that careers are not ruined by this kind of thing?

I agree with both of these statements.

I also think the whole no-knock process needs to be evaluated on the basis of getting a bad address from an informant and busting into the home of a person who has committed no crime. If that's too political mods can feel free to remove.

I don't think it's political at all to say the process should be evaluated. Remember, the process for issuing no-knock warrants is far from universal nation-wide, and some areas have been much more competent and successful in this than others.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I think ALL aspects of law enforcement should be constantly evaluated. Civilization is not static, society is not static, and if there's one thing the military has taught me, it's that if you feel comfortable, like you have everyhting under control, you need to re-evaluate your situation.

[Tater Raider]

I think ALL aspects of law enforcement should be constantly evaluated. Civilization is not static, society is not static, and if there's one thing the military has taught me, it's that if you feel comfortable, like you have everyhting under control, you need to re-evaluate your situation.

QotD right there.

[Kommander]

I think ALL aspects of law enforcement should be constantly evaluated. Civilization is not static, society is not static, and if there's one thing the military has taught me, it's that if you feel comfortable, like you have everyhting under control, you need to re-evaluate your situation.

I am a master of my element then.

[RedneckReverend]

I think law enforcement of any kind should be held to at least as high a standard on forcibly entering a persons home and/or damaging their property in the name of a search as a surgeon is when opening a persons body in the operating room. They should also face just as much scrutiny for their "malpractice" of entering the wrong house or entering on inaccurate and unverified information as the surgeon would if he removed the wrong organ or attempted and appendectomy on someone who had already had one. Otherwise you will keep getting stuff like this http://www.atfabuse.com/atfabuse-18.html

[squinty]

I think law enforcement of any kind should be held to at least as high a standard on forcibly entering a persons home and/or damaging their property in the name of a search as a surgeon is when opening a persons body in the operating room. They should also face just as much scrutiny for their "malpractice" of entering the wrong house or entering on inaccurate and unverified information as the surgeon would if he removed the wrong organ or attempted and appendectomy on someone who had already had one. Otherwise you will keep getting stuff like this http://www.atfabuse.com/atfabuse-18.html

What I said.

[PackLemming]

We face the same threats when it concerns distilling whiskey mash, or just plain distilling water in this country.

[Rugger]

I think law enforcement.... (snipped)....... will keep getting stuff like this http://www.atfabuse.com/atfabuse-18.html

First, as a guy whose family has had a very similar experience, this is exactly how it goes down. Even the, "WTF are you going to do about it Joe Citizen," attitude. Almost every one of these guys were picked on in high school and have a need to compensate for their lack of self confidence by abusing the massive amount of power they are allowed to wield. The same goes for bad cops.

Second, anybody want to take odds on what his ex-wife's new boyfriend does?