Flee the country!

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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Flee the country!

Post by DFWMTX » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:08 pm

Considering it's the day after the anniversary of the fall of Saigon, I wonder if any of us have ever given thought on how we would prep if we had to flee the country.

So let's say you live in the country of Hypothetica, a place much like where you live now. However, there's been a civil war raging for years, but we're towards the end of it, and the side you're not on, the Blue Meanies, are winning. Blue Meanie forces at outside your city, and you need to flee for some reason (you criticized the Blue Meanie politicians, you fought against them, you have a preference for Pepsi which violates the Blue Meanie's politican tennets, etc). You need to flee the country, either by boat or by air. You're hoping to make it to territory of your allies, the Green Giants, who aided your side in the civil war but pulled out for some reason.

You have one bag. It's either the kind of backpack you use for a day trip, a medium-sized duffel bag, or a carry-on sized suitcase. What do you pack to start your new life in a new country?
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Re: Flee the country!

Post by Halfapint » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:40 pm

Interesting quandary! Though it seems a little simple, as you describe it you're not taking a lot. So the most valuable things are, who you are, who your family is, and some memories, and possibly some valuables to be sold to start a new life.

What I would pack are passports, birth certificates, financial paperwork (bank statements, 401k, investments, pension, land deeds, mortgage, etc), a couple changes of clothes, my silver coins, gold ingots, all the paper currancy, jewlry, and some high value electronics that are small but expensive, finally flash drive back ups of all the phyical paper work, along with family photos, some music and possibly movies.

You can take a lesson from history and modern day when things like nazi's rounded up Jews, what did they take? When Syrians are getting displaced what do they bring?
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Re: Flee the country!

Post by TechnoSage » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:49 pm

I would grab:
1) Precious metals
2) Precious BOB
3) Precious family
4) Precious documents

In that order.
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Re: Flee the country!

Post by raptor » Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:17 pm

The key to being a successful refugee is a safe haven destination. Without this, fleeing will not do you much good. I would note that very few countries are welcoming to refugees in any number. In fact most treat refugees rather poorly and do not provide much beyond a refugee camp in way of amenities.

The other important consideration is do you leave early and beat the rush or wait until you have to do so. If you wait you may be able to avoid an unneeded trip but on the negative side you will be among a wave of people who may overwhelm the amenities and result in a backlash against the refugees by your chosen destination.

Accordingly I would have already set up a suitable destination accordingly I pack light.

Passport
Residency visa for destination country
Cash
Credit card
3 days of clothing

Everything else of value to me would been transferred to the destination previously. Anything left behind would be of no consequence to me.

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Re: Flee the country!

Post by JeeperCreeper » Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:43 pm

I like these kinds of threads. I will try to stay within the rules and not think too far out of the box. If I were allowed a mode of transport (probably bicycle if I'm a refugee) I'd take the duffel bag. If I'm hoofing it, I'm taking the backpack. I'd attempt to make it to a boat.... as it'd be apart of my master plan.

1. Hard drive: Pictures, documents, resume, certificates, pretty much my whole life in digital form. I'd have flash drives to back up the hard drive. Only electronics I'd bring would be handheld (tablet, phone, ipod, etc)
2. Currency: I don't really have any precious metals and I doubt cash will be worth much with the new gov't taking over. I'd have to barter some of the valuable things I have which isn't much.
3. Protection: Non-latex kind. Firearms, I'd probably take 2 pistols and leave the heavy stuff at home... it'd probably take me 4 days to decide which ones to take. Probably my Ruger Balckhawk Convertible and my SIG 9mm. I'd also have my good knife or two.
4. Clothes and toiletries: Self explanatory. I'd make sure to bring my "foul weather gear" because my goal would be to stay on a boat.
5. Food and Shelter: Derp, I'd pack light.

My goal would be to travel by boat to The Land of the Greens, and since boat is an option, I'd assume they have a coastal section. I'd attempt to get my life on track by being a deckhand on a fishing or work boat. Normally those jobs can be had as they are tough and people don't stick with them and I have some good experience being a semen/seaman. It'd be a start, until I figured out how to get a white collar job somewhere.

I'd also bury many of the things I can't take in my yard (I doubt they will be dug up anytime soon due to location) in case I ever get a chance to come back. But I'm not really into burying things so it isn't a priority.
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Re: Flee the country!

Post by duodecima » Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:48 pm

I'm assuming I didn't plan ahead quite as well as raptor for this somehow, maybe it blew up quicker than I thought, maybe we were prevented from transferring assets abroad (there are other scenarios than the one above, I'm thinking somewhat generically) In rough order of priority:

1)Identity docs - not just passport, but birth certificates - for us and my children. Marriage license (some people in this country stumble over the idea that we're married when I didn't take his name, our destination may or not . Driver's licenses & voter reg are in the wallet anyway - it's proof of address. May not matter, may matter, but you can't come back for it. Vaccine records. Educational records for my kids. (basically the report card folder).

2)Professional documents - I'm a physician, there are hoops but I can get my credentials recognized eventually in the majority of English-speaking countries, which means I should be able to at least keep food on the table, and makes it easier to find a place that will take me&my family as legal residents of some sort rather than refugees. Stethoscope. Other professions may have the same thing - it's not going to hurt to be able to prove that you are a licensed professional engineer, or nurse, or accountant, or hair stylist, or commercial driver.

3)Cash & debit&credit cards - assuming the credit cards are still any kind of use. (Basically, add emergency cash to wallet & travel bags.) My "good" jewelry (=the 3 pieces that actually have diamond rather than cubic zircs...)
3a)Cell phones & tablets & charging cords/devices - we can do a lot of communicating and info gathering from them and they're super light. Also maintains a sense of normalcy for the children.
3b)Notebook/pen/pencil/sharpies. My memory's not perfect, notes can be left places. Kids may need to draw. I may, depending on the level of chaos and exactly what I think might happen to my kids if they are identified by various parties, sharpie their names and birthdates onto them with contact info.

4)All my damn meds that I have on hand. Not something I need to be without. Summary medical record (frankly I have it memorized, but it doesn't hurt).

5)Clothes & toiletries - depends on where/what I think my destination is likely to be for the specifics (winter? Summer? what kind of shoes?). At least one outfit that will pass as professional - see #2. Random other stuff always packed for travel abroad.
5a) situation specific gear. Evac'ing to Siberia or Nome in winter? Trying to cross a body of water or remote border crossing at altitude? Obviously, you pack differently for those but the circumstances would dictate different stuff. I don't think I could cover all the territory and still get us into one bag a piece for this.

6)Other documents - it may or may not be useful to some day prove my house is mine. Or not. Take if I have room. My retirement accounts may or may not be accessible to me some day.

7) Thumb drive of other documents & pictures. Most all my important pics are digital, that's enough sentimental stuff to make me feel like I didn't loose everything, can print them and frame again when we're settled.

8) Food&water? Probably at least granola bars &water bottles as travel is unlikely to proceed on schedule at this point. More based on specific circumstances and space.

9) if space available one sentimental toy/comfort object for each kid. The loss of stuff is going to hit them much worse than me & my husband.
raptor wrote: Anything left behind would be of no consequence to me.
This. I'd eventually focus on missing some of my stuff, but when I think about what I need there's nothing in my house that I wouldn't get over loosing except the people.

BTW - Raptor's advance planning and beating the rush would be the vastly preferred plan. I'm simply assuming that I somehow didn't/couldn't make that one work.
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Re: Flee the country!

Post by Halfapint » Fri May 01, 2015 2:21 am

I'd like to ask a follow up question. I am a big fan of hard copies. If I'm bugging out to a forign country I want to have ALL the paper documents I can. I believe they are "trusted" more than a digital copy. That's why I said in my post I want physical hard copies of everything that's important, back up to all those would be scans/pictures of the hard copies saved on secured thumb drives.

So I guess my question is.... Is it just me? Do others think that hard copies are more important than the digital version. I ask because I've run into times where even though I could show them a death certificate they wanted a noterized copy. Or an officer wouldn't accept a digital version of my insurance card.

Sorry to perhaps derail this thread but it seems everyone is carrying digital copies of their stuff.
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Re: Flee the country!

Post by JeeperCreeper » Fri May 01, 2015 4:09 am

Halfapint wrote:I'd like to ask a follow up question. I am a big fan of hard copies. If I'm bugging out to a forign country I want to have ALL the paper documents I can. I believe they are "trusted" more than a digital copy. That's why I said in my post I want physical hard copies of everything that's important, back up to all those would be scans/pictures of the hard copies saved on secured thumb drives.

So I guess my question is.... Is it just me? Do others think that hard copies are more important than the digital version. I ask because I've run into times where even though I could show them a death certificate they wanted a noterized copy. Or an officer wouldn't accept a digital version of my insurance card.

Sorry to perhaps derail this thread but it seems everyone is carrying digital copies of their stuff.
I don't have digital copies of anything YET, because I'm lazy and haven't gotten around to it yet. So clearly I probably shouldn't weigh in, but oh well. Obviously, I am no expert, just a dude.

I'd say for some things, hard copies are best. For others, it either isn't necessary or it is impractical. Passports, ID, driver's license, special license (boat, pilot, firearm, etc.), SS card should obviously be hardcopy as proving identity of all the other records is half the battle.

Things like account numbers, financials, medical, employment licensure, diplomas, training certificates, etc. can probably be digital copies. Half the time when you use these things now-a-days, a digital copy is all that is required.

So for me, wallet sized things will come, all the others will be in a thumb drive. If not, I'd be lugging around a backpack full of only paperwork. But I guess for a storm evacuation or vehicle bug out, you can have that backpack of hardcopies.
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Re: Flee the country!

Post by Mikeyboy » Fri May 01, 2015 8:25 am

Actually Ferfal had a good writeup on his blog about that and even published a book (his 2nd). After years of writing about how he was dealing with and surviving the Argentinian currency collapse that started in 2000, he finally decided to leave the country when the government leaned socialist. He tried for the USA, Canada, and Spain but ended up in Ireland.

http://ferfal.blogspot.com/

That said, I always keep that as an option for bugging out. Beyond the basics, I would just keep my passport up to date, do your research on other countries and the process of transferring citizenship, and make sure you have marketable skills and the ability to transfer some wealth. This is probably the only time I would say gold, silver and diamonds are a good thing to have for this SHTF event.

For me my first choice would be Canada simply because for me its easy to get to (6 hour drive to the border), it real similar to the USA, and the process to get Canadian Citizenship as of this time is not crazy difficult.

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Re: Flee the country!

Post by modustollens » Fri May 01, 2015 9:39 am

I think fleeing the country for political reasons is different than bugging out from some natural disaster for, though mother nature can cause a lot of trouble, that trouble is not personally directed at you.

If fleeing one's political enemies then a plan to get around the check points and border crossing will be required. Not just passports, but fake ones, for example, for documents are checked on the way out as well as on the way in in many places under normal circumstances, let alone when the political situation runs amok.

I don't think foreign citizens in either Canada, the US or EU countries need exit visas as well as entrance visas. But I have worked in countries where I need both a visa to enter and a different visa to leave - and they are not given at the same time. My exit visa has always been given once I have entered and filled out forms or spoke with the police/immigration officers etc.. If the exit visa is not prepared when you get to the border you will be stopped from leaving. This happened to one of my co-workers at xmas when he was heading out for holiday. It would not take much time for a nefarious group of new political masters to implement an exit visa rule - a few phone calls could stop all but the authorized from leaving in short order.

Anyway, a normal bug out plan should include possible routes around obstacles - swollen rivers, raging fires, etc.; but in this scenario there would be possibly hostile police and border check points to avoid and get around - bribes may be required and those asking for them may want all you have. It might be a good idea to have a foreign bank account with a few 1000 stashed away just in case; but, as politics and money are always entwined, such an account would need to be prepared in advance - new and nefarious political orders, when they are not stealing the nation's money, will probably try and prevent any capital from leaving the country; and last minute transactions could get you flagged as some sort of kulak or class enemy deserving of arrest even if before you were not on anyone's political hate-radar.

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Re: Flee the country!

Post by Mikeyboy » Fri May 01, 2015 10:23 am

modustollens wrote:I think fleeing the country for political reasons is different than bugging out from some natural disaster for, though mother nature can cause a lot of trouble, that trouble is not personally directed at you.

If fleeing one's political enemies then a plan to get around the check points and border crossing will be required. Not just passports, but fake ones, for example, for documents are checked on the way out as well as on the way in in many places under normal circumstances, let alone when the political situation runs amok.

I don't think foreign citizens in either Canada, the US or EU countries need exit visas as well as entrance visas. But I have worked in countries where I need both a visa to enter and a different visa to leave - and they are not given at the same time. My exit visa has always been given once I have entered and filled out forms or spoke with the police/immigration officers etc.. If the exit visa is not prepared when you get to the border you will be stopped from leaving. This happened to one of my co-workers at xmas when he was heading out for holiday. It would not take much time for a nefarious group of new political masters to implement an exit visa rule - a few phone calls could stop all but the authorized from leaving in short order.

Anyway, a normal bug out plan should include possible routes around obstacles - swollen rivers, raging fires, etc.; but in this scenario there would be possibly hostile police and border check points to avoid and get around - bribes may be required and those asking for them may want all you have. It might be a good idea to have a foreign bank account with a few 1000 stashed away just in case; but, as politics and money are always entwined, such an account would need to be prepared in advance - new and nefarious political orders, when they are not stealing the nation's money, will probably try and prevent any capital from leaving the country; and last minute transactions could get you flagged as some sort of kulak or class enemy deserving of arrest even if before you were not on anyone's political hate-radar.

MT
The good news is even in a situation where in a bad political situation official borders are shut down, with some local intel and planning, you can sneak your way out and across a border since it is tough for most countries to lock down very square foot of their border in a short time. If Plan A is to leave a country, have a Plan B if the standard routes out are shut down.

There is a movie coming out that kind of highlights this, a fast moving political uprising in an Asian country causing chaos, and a few US/UK transplants needing to get out.



While there is a possibility that if you are resident of a small country, or if the disaster is big enough that a large county in uninhabitable you may need to leave due to natural disaster. However the most likely cause of someone needing to flee a country would be due to a political/social change, or due to a war.

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Re: Flee the country!

Post by Kutter_0311 » Sat May 02, 2015 7:14 pm

I have already picked my top 2 bug-outcountries, Switzerland and Israel,

Both countries are economically strong and value martial skills.

I have no idea how to be accepted into either county, but I do have a passport. Still need to get passports for the rest of the family.

I think it's best, like in any emergency, to recognize the developing situation early, and get some distance before you're in a hurry.
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Re: Flee the country!

Post by Honeypot » Sun May 03, 2015 1:05 am

Hard copies:
When #1 daughter went to West Africa on a kewl teaching gig, we did lots of research and networking.

We ended up creating a list of "critical" numbers, including: passport, three credit cards (with expiration & back-of-the-card codes), and some phone numbers.
These were printed out on two (duplicate) smallish cards, then laminated.

That made it easy to hide, in a, um, wide variety of hiding places (don't-ask-don't-tell).

We were told that the passport number would save enormous time if she ever had to deal with an American consulate/embassy/whatever. The credit cards were mainly intended for buying an airline ticket, at the first hint of trouble. Two of the cards had high limits, and we contacted both banks to authorize any regional transportation ticket purchases (multiple seats, in case she decided to help others out).

All that took very little effort, and left all of us with a warm & fuzzy feeling. ;)


Digital copies:
Danger-Danger Will Robinson!!!

USB (and all other "firmware" loading devices) is inherently dangerous (real/cyber zombie wise) technology.
Please educate yourselves about its risks.

A good starting term to web search on is "badUSB" (a proof of concept exploit of long known design flaws).
If that doesn't make you shat your pants (Brown Pants rulz!)... well, just keep on walkin'.

Instead of relying 100% on zombie hugging tech, please consider putting your critical files on a non-erasable non-"active" media, such as CD-R discs.
My spouse and I regularly back up our own (computer) source code to CD-R.


Changing Citizenship:
Um, guys, it's a lot more complicated than you're suggesting.

Mikeyboy, please read Ad'lan's moving to Canada thread for an example.
I do agree with you that it's a very good place to flee to, however please expect to be a refugee, potentially for a long time.

This is ZS, and The Paranoia Force is strong with us. ;)

Kutter_0311, I respectfully disagree with your two picks.

Switzerland stays out of wars.
That (subjectively) seems to me kind of the opposite of valueing martial skills. Europe in general has major tensions over unskilled refugees/immigrants, so I think you'd find it very difficult to get in, without some well defined profession.

Israel... dang, talk about "danger close"!
I have several professional (cyber-security) peers there, and highly respect them and many other Israelis, but dang, that's darn near the last place on the planet I'd ever take my family. :(

Frankly, given how close you are to Canada, if I were you and there was a real crisis, I'd head there, and claim refugee status.
The travel logistics alone are orders of magnitude simpler, particularly with wee kids. In a mass exodus, closer means faster, and faster is better. Canada couldn't accept all Americans, so be first in line. Plus, wee kids give you sympathy points. :)

Canada also has a backlash against refugees, but nowhere near as bad as Europe, plus there's a history of welcoming American refugees (partly as a matter of cultural snobbery). As a Northerner, you probably have a much better feeling for Canadian Culture than most Americans, so you could assimilate more readily (and hey, you're a Firefly Fan, so you already love some Canucks!).

Can you get Ontario's educational TV channel? If so, start watching now. The kid shows alone are worth a good OTA antenna or Canuck satellite dish.


As I've mentioned, my spouse is Canadian, so going there is a total no-brainer for us.
Her family has helped sponsor many refugees over the decades, from places as diverse as Iran, France, Chile, and the Iron Curtain.
I like Canadians. :)
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Re: Flee the country!

Post by JeeperCreeper » Sun May 03, 2015 1:25 am

Honeypot wrote:USB (and all other "firmware" loading devices) is inherently dangerous (real/cyber zombie wise) technology.
Please educate yourselves about its risks.

A good starting term to web search on is "badUSB" (a proof of concept exploit of long known design flaws).
If that doesn't make you shat your pants (Brown Pants rulz!)... well, just keep on walkin'.

Instead of relying 100% on zombie hugging tech, please consider putting your critical files on a non-erasable non-"active" media, such as CD-R discs.
My spouse and I regularly back up our own (computer) source code to CD-R.
Oh jeez.... good call. That makes a lot of sense. CD-R it is then!!!
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Her secondary offense will be nagging.

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Re: Flee the country!

Post by grumpyviking » Sun May 03, 2015 6:37 am

I would not flee to a foreign country, I do not know the language and I do not know the customs, I would be "that foreigner" and a target for all and sundry.
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Re: Flee the country!

Post by Kutter_0311 » Sun May 03, 2015 9:13 am

Kutter_0311, I respectfully disagree with your two picks.
I know neither is topping anyones' lists, but both have a history of survival in rough times. Let’s face it, if I'm fleeing the US, I won't assume safety anywhere in North America. Canada is nice, I have gone fishing there several times, but the border is soft, and not likely to stop any serious threat. I would not hesitate to shift there initially, then arrange a flight to a more final destination, but if I left, more 'Muricans are on the way...

Skills are a huge thing. No skills, no work, no money to live happily ever after. I am a machinist, truck driver, and rifleman, and those are just the jobs I have been paid to do for a few years at a time. Machinists and truck drivers are vital to any developed economy, and riflemen are valuable to those countries especially. Switzerland is a nation of riflemen, and William Tell is their Johnny Appleseed/George Washington/Abe Lincoln all in one guy. The Sig 550 series is issued nationwide, because all citizens are militia/standing army. This is why Hitler saw no value in attacking them. Israel is surrounded by countries constantly trying to destroy it, yet Israel flourishes, so I doubt it would get worse in rough times. Also, I married a Greenberg, so both sides have some Jewish ancestory.
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Re: Flee the country!

Post by Wraith6761 » Sun May 03, 2015 9:48 am

Honeypot wrote: Digital copies:
Danger-Danger Will Robinson!!!

USB (and all other "firmware" loading devices) is inherently dangerous (real/cyber zombie wise) technology.
Please educate yourselves about its risks.

A good starting term to web search on is "badUSB" (a proof of concept exploit of long known design flaws).
If that doesn't make you shat your pants (Brown Pants rulz!)... well, just keep on walkin'.

Instead of relying 100% on zombie hugging tech, please consider putting your critical files on a non-erasable non-"active" media, such as CD-R discs.
My spouse and I regularly back up our own (computer) source code to CD-R.
Or you could just use flash drives that are designed to block the badusb exploit... :wink: http://www.ironkey.com/en-US/solutions/ ... adusb.html
Only about half of the chip manufacturers out there are vulnerable to badusb-style attacks. Note, I said "chip manufacturers," not to be confused with flash drive manufacturers. Companies such as Kingston, PNY, Sandisk, Verbatim, etc do not actually make the USB controller chips that badusb targets, they just slap in the cheapest controller chip they could get. For example, a Kingston flash drive can have a controller from any of 6 different vendors that they've been known to work with. http://www.wired.com/2014/11/badusb-onl ... f-of-usbs/

Phison chips are pretty much universally vulnerable, ASmedia chips tend not to be vulnerable, and others are a crapshoot. You can check to see if you've got one of the known vulnerable chipsets in your drive pretty easily: http://classroom.synonym.com/out-manufa ... 15460.html

A couple of companies that are in the business of making encrypted flash drives have already pointed out that their drives are not vulnerable, thanks to the built-in requirement for their firmware updates to be digitally signed (in essence, a digital signature is a numeric value calculated by a hashing algorithm, the system gets both the file and the signature, it runs the same algorithm against the file and compares the resulting value to the signature value, if the file has been altered the values will be different, if the values don't match, system rejects it as not signed)--no signature, no change is allowed on the drive. These drives are pricier than normal, mostly cause they're considerably more complex than a standard flash drive -- hardware-based AES-256 bit encryption (meets .mil and .gov specs, as well as HIPAA if I remember correctly), auto-wipe protocols (if you enter the wrong password x number of times, drive assumes you're trying to hack it and wipes the data), ruggedized exteriors (water/dust resistant, usually some impact-resistance), etc.
http://store.ironkey.com/store/imation/ ... .276567100
http://store.kanguru.com/products/defender-2000
Toshiba is trying to get on this bandwagon as well, though no word yet if they'll be using signed firmware or not http://www.toshiba.com/us/press-release/101244

I guess I'd rather just get a good flash drive than have to deal with burning and protecting a CD or 3 from getting damaged, as well as having to make a new one every time an important document changes and having to then destroy the old CD(s)...you are destroying the old CD as you update, right?

As to the OP's point, I'd take the backpack, mostly cause I hate using a bag that only goes on one shoulder. I'd go for the usual items (currency/valuables, documents, small electronics like phone and kindle, some clothes and toiletries, etc), but where to go would be an interesting issue...I see three possible choices really, Canada (obvious choice, fairly similar culturally), Costa Rica (nice place, already have some family that's moved down there, but my Spanish sucks, so that's a problem), or England/Ireland (a somewhat rough transition culturally, but I think I could do it). I guess I haven't really thought about it due to it being so incredibly unlikely that I'd ever need to do it.
Woods Walker wrote:...I don't think it matters if a backpack has Dora the Explorer on it. Based on my observations from years of hunting and fishing if something looks and acts like prey it will draw in predators.

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Re: Flee the country!

Post by Honeypot » Sun May 03, 2015 9:51 pm

Kutter_0311 wrote: both have a history of survival in rough times.
Now that I agree 100% with! :)

Thanks for the clarifications.
That's a much better plan (quick hop to Canada, then languorous journey to somewhere else).

Does Israel still have that automatic entry thing for converts? I was going to mention that, but wasn't sure if someone might get snitty. It's definitely something worth researching, if you already have a family history.

Does Switzerland actually have a 100% militia participation rate? I had heard that when I was young, but had heard some counter indications since then.

Frankly, I think Canada would be more excited about you as a rifleman, particularly if the USA was self-destructing. :)



Shiny, I didn't know you're a techie, Wraith6761! :)
Wraith6761 wrote: Or you could just use flash drives that are designed to block the badusb exploit
Um, the problem with those claims is that "badUSB" is only one exploit.
Most of the "safe" drives are such by accident, not by design (i.e. would be vulnerable to other exploits).

The underlying problem is flashable firmware.

In other cybersecurity contexts, digital signatures have been regularly subverted.

What I genuinely do not understand, and welcome education on, is how the source of a digital signature is validated. Specifically, if firmware flashing malware exists on your system, how is it possible to know that a digital signature that it provides and (of course) matches the malware it tries to flash, isn't from the vendor?

This all goes to chain of trust issues, which have been problems for years, particularly with browser certificates.
Wraith6761 wrote: you are destroying the old CD as you update, right?
As I mentioned, we use CDs to backup critical and/or valued files, so we don't have to destroy anything (version control FTW). :)
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Re: Flee the country!

Post by Stercutus » Mon May 04, 2015 5:19 am

I'd go to Australia. Australia does hire prior military from other countries with combat experience. My duffle bag would be full of whatever hard currency did ot get transferred and valuables. The briefcase would have papers, a bottle of water and a few snacks. I'd carry a small pistol until I could not anymore. If I am going to run away I want that to be clear.
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Re: Flee the country!

Post by Wraith6761 » Mon May 04, 2015 6:54 am

Honeypot wrote: The underlying problem is flashable firmware.

In other cybersecurity contexts, digital signatures have been regularly subverted.

What I genuinely do not understand, and welcome education on, is how the source of a digital signature is validated. Specifically, if firmware flashing malware exists on your system, how is it possible to know that a digital signature that it provides and (of course) matches the malware it tries to flash, isn't from the vendor?

This all goes to chain of trust issues, which have been problems for years, particularly with browser certificates.
It works off the principle of asymmetric encryption. To create a digital signature, signing software (such as an email program) creates a one-way hash of the electronic data to be signed. The private key is then used to encrypt the hash. The encrypted hash -- along with other information, such as the hashing algorithm -- is the digital signature. The value of the hash is unique to the hashed data. Any change in the data, even changing or deleting a single character, results in a different value. This attribute enables others to validate the integrity of the data by using the signer's public key to decrypt the hash. If the decrypted hash matches a second computed hash of the same data, it proves that the data hasn't changed since it was signed. If the two hashes don't match, the data has either been tampered with in some way (integrity) or the signature was created with a private key that doesn't correspond to the public key presented by the signer
Technically, it's possible to pull off a man-in-the-middle attack there, by either redirecting the search to a malicious server or spoofing the server address that the application is searching for, but even doing that would require that you get access to the signer's private key (the company whose firmware you're trying to replace), since the public key wouldn't be able to decrypt the hash to confirm it's legit. At this point in time, it's highly unlikely that flash drives requiring digitally signed firmware updates will become vulnerable to this sort of attack. Most of the times you read about digital signatures getting spoofed, it's due to the private key becoming compromised. If one of those companies' private keys gets compromised, then that's a whole other ball of trouble, but for now it's easier to just upload that sort of malware onto a public computer and let people who don't know better put their unprotected flash drive in.
It's just like every other major exploit that's been found over the years, folks sit back and say "holy shit, how'd we miss that?" and then there's a scramble to fix the issue...current solutions that are being worked on include the digitally signed updates as well as requiring a person to physically manipulate the drive to allow the update to commence (probably a button on the drive that will have to be pushed, or a PIN entered, something along those lines).
Best lesson there is not to go around sticking your drive into random ports or let other people stick their drives into your ports...wow, that sounded like the lamest sex ed class ever...
Woods Walker wrote:...I don't think it matters if a backpack has Dora the Explorer on it. Based on my observations from years of hunting and fishing if something looks and acts like prey it will draw in predators.

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Re: Flee the country!

Post by Kutter_0311 » Mon May 04, 2015 10:20 pm

I really don't know if Israel takes all converts, but I thought their whole deal was to be the Jewish homeland, so I would guess so.

Everything I have read about Switzerland indicates their standing militia concept is still in effect after several hundred years. There is a small element trying to address the issue of 'suicide by issued rifle' by getting rifles removed from homes, but they never get more than the 5 minutes airtime that is required to be given them. Sort of "OK, say your piece so we can get on with our day."

Switzerland has quite the defensive network, I'm told. And they just keep building up.
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Re: Flee the country!

Post by JeeperCreeper » Mon May 04, 2015 11:39 pm

I think I'd try for Iceland. There, I could try to blend in with the Giant-Viking-Powerlifters (unsuccessfully, of course). Worse comes to worst, they can always hurl boulders at incoming enemies from afar.
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Re: Flee the country!

Post by DFWMTX » Tue May 05, 2015 11:31 am

I'm not sure if Switzerland is the best idea for refuge, unless you have money. The Swiss don't have the best track record of helping Jews flee the Holocaust, and there's been some ethnic tensions building up because of the latest batch of political refugees being non-white.
But money and other resources helps.
It can always get worse.

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Re: Flee the country!

Post by LowKey » Tue May 05, 2015 12:10 pm

Fleeing the country when there's been a governmental collapse or breakdown?
You'd have to exit the country, and without Immigration and Customs officers on duty (who won't be there if the system is collapsing), you're exiting that nation without going through legal border controls which would be illegal.
We don't discuss illegal things here on ZS, right? 'Cause we respect all the rules.
Last edited by LowKey on Wed May 06, 2015 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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