Open Ended Scenerio's

[Recon101]

Hello, i'm new here and my name is Kimber. Being that this seems an appropriate forum for it, one of the training tools we use in the private security company i work for, is role playing type short story that leads up to a single final choice (where you would get to decide what to do.) these stories are sometimes based on actual events, while others are entirely fictional but written to sound as plausible as possible. They are about survival, and self defense. The purpose of these as a training a tool is in the middle of a rock and a hard place scenario one doesn't always see all options. But upon the aftermath it's easy to reflect and say I should have or should not have done this.

I would Appreciate fully serious answers.
You may continue entirely from where its left off giving a full decision even continueing the 'story' the point is often times in these scenario's there only seems one answer, the one you are directly set up for. Which is not always best.
A story title marked B is based on true events
Marked F for purely fictional
Marked K for a true story that happened to me.

Between the three types the only difference is two have a known real world answer and known outcome.

I'd like to start with a self defense type "F" Scenario.

In this scenario you are an Off Duty VIP Protection Agent employed by the PSC I work for.

At your disposal is all the items you normally carry directly on your person, with the addition of (if you normally carry disregard) a handgun and 2 additional magazines.

The Diner Type "F"

The scenario is as such. After a tiresome and loaded 2 weeks of straight work you and your spouse go out for a nice quiet late night dinner at your local mom and pop diner. It's a slow night, and very relaxing. You chat, discuss the last two weeks, when suddenly things go wrong. 3 men bust into the place, (gunman 1) one carrying a shotgun, (gunman 2) the other an machine pistol, (gunman 3) and the other a handgun.

Immediately upon entry an off duty police officer stands and draws his sidearm, unfortunately gunman 1 fires upon him critically striking his Chest cavity. The officer falls struggling for life, while gunman 2 and 3 take control of the crowd.

Gunman 1 takes the officers weapon and forcefully persists with the manager on getting all the money, register and safe. Under duress the manager is having difficulty getting the safe open.

Gunman 3 pulls the blinds and locks the door, subtlety peaking through on watch.

Gunman 2 lined everyone up at the furthest wall, demanding all cell phone, jewels, and wallets/purses having them all tossed into an open sack. As the gunman gets closer to you, you take in a deep breathe keeping your wits about you...

This you know... its immediately recognized they have no concern for loss of life. The officer is down, bleeding badly but alive...

Gunman 1 (15ft away) occupied with the manager both behind the counter, struggling with the safe...

Gunman 2 (3 ft away) is holding a sack open with two hands collecting valuables, upon close inspection you notice the fire selected on his machine pistol is set to safe.

Gunman 3 (10ft away)is on lookout duty, periodically glancing in your direction. Holding his pistol in his right hand.

As Gunman 2 draws closer you, knowing your weapon is concealed at 5 or 7 o clock position just above your wallet... (depends on Dom. Hand) as you reach behind your back you....

[aus.templar]

Draw and fire twice at each gunman, first at #2 then #1 then #3. Then reassess



Also, hot tip: change the topic title to something more specific

[Tater Raider]

Serious answer? The way it's set up? Die. This is a no-win. I can die in a blaze of glory or die because they want to kill all the witnesses but I will end up dying.

Also, on the safed machine pistol: at 3 feet I'm not going to be able to tell if the safety is on or not. My eyesight isn't great and I'm not familiar with machine pistols.

[phil_in_cs]

As Gunman 2 draws closer you, knowing your weapon is concealed at 5 or 7 o clock position just above your wallet... (depends on Dom. Hand) as you reach behind your back you....

That's a good argument for appendix carry.

I think I have a video around that explains how to react here.....

[Regular Guy]

That's a good argument for appendix carry.

I think I have a video around that explains how to react here.....

Is anyone making a tuckable appendix holster? I'd go look however my work computer will not allow me to.

[Recon101]

These Scenario's are entirely open ended... In specific, yes the absolute direct threat is the safes machine pistol, I'd you take him first, you might die, if you try one the other two first, he will probably get you.

When I first was asked this, I read it 2-3 times. My answer was to prove myself useful. They don't seem to have had the intent to kill... As the off duty cop immediately put them into kill or be killed when they first came in. I would surrender my Cell phone and wallet... You have everything you carry on your person daily... In the same pocket as my cell phone, is my business cards. I'd push my emergency call button, slip a business card over it, the toss it into the sack, quickly, along with my wallet.

Then I'd start my bluff. I'd tell them I was an EMT and could lose my job if they don't let me help the injured man. (doubtfully they will care) but continue with if they let me save him they can avoid murder rap. (carefully and hopefully speaking at volume enough for the cell phone to pick up.)

If the bluff worked, I could also try to convince them to let me look around for medical supplies, or take me out a back door to get to my car for my medical bag. Obviously they would likely not let me do so all alone... So one of four things...

1. They escort me around where I can try and separate there view of each other and strike at opportunity on my escort.

2. Stupidly let me free roam.

3. Escort me to my vehicle to get my med bag.

4. Send a gunmen to my vehicle to get my med bag.

Either way, I can remove at least one gunman from the equation where I might get opportunity to engage him subtlety. Leaving me with better odds on the other two.

[beheadtheundead]

I give him my wallet.

[nathat]

Honestly in this case I would hand over valuables and let them walk. My wife is my concern and I wouldn't do anything to put her in danger, they fired on the officer but because he drew. I would just bide my time. If things became worse I would have a plan of action then, but from what you have described I would not try to be the hero. Take mental notes of heights, scars, anything to identify them. Try to see what car they came in, etc...and make the best police report I can.

With shots fired someone probably called the cops, and if this turned into a long term standoff situation, I would use that to my advantage. Get my wife near an exit, tell her to run, and cover her...Hopefully once police arrived the numbers would be a bit more favorable, and they would be more distracted.

[phil_in_cs]

Just to point out that actual machine pistols used in petty crime is astonishingly rare. Last time I ran an El Prez on the clock I was under 10 seconds, clean. Lots of folks are way faster, of course. That includes turning and reloading, too. As soon as they demonstrate lethal intent by shooting someone, it's time for this:

[Tater Raider]

Quiet down, I'm trying to be dead over here.

Sheesh... ya'd think folk could rest-in-peace...

[Recon101]

.......Scenario 2.......

(Feel free to respond to 1st Scenario still)

I'm gonna go ahead and post this one, it'll probably be more favourable to this forum.

This is a Type "K" 1 of 2 that have actually happened to me...

Setting: I'm in mid travel to meet a client, it's 1am in the morning, and I'm traveling 70MPH out in the middle of nowhere roads traveling West bound towards Nevada...
(to this day I still do not have a clue what ran in front of me.) anyway, in the middle of a subtle curve in the road something ran out in front of my vehicle, I slammed the brakes, swerved and failed to regain control of my vehicle slid off road and into a ditch. Several hours passed and I awoke, I had a nice deep gash about a 0.5 inch underneath my left eye, still bleeding.

(At this particular point in time, I did not "travel prep" I actually had no interest in prepping at all.)

All I had under my belt was medical knowledge to try and take care of my injury with virtually no medical supplies, which was basically ripping my shirt sleeve off and using it to apply pressure. Attempted to start my engine, which all I got was well, nothing. Tried my phone, great no cell service.

My solution was the least prepared of all. In the first few hours my cell phone died. I walked... I slept. I don't even know how long in truth I was out wandering around. I just know i was week, hungry, thirsty as hell, and completely lost. But Where I eventually by dumb luck, (and breaking the number 2 thing my mother stressed to me so much, never get into a car with a stranger) ran into a passing motorist. Who gave me a lift to the nearest hospital. Which that in of itself took a long time. For which the most part my guard was down and I slept for most the ride.

Traveling with what I now have now....
/in a back pack follows
2 MRE's
2 Flashlights 150 lum and a 80 lum
5 Flex Cuffs
Radio Scanner
Batteries for every electronic device in existence
4 litre water bladder
2 lighters
Trauma+ Med Kit (pain meds, bandages, needle + thread, scissors, antibiotic creams, bug spray, poison ivy ointments, sun screen, bandages, gauze, blood stoppers, instant freeze, instant heat, ext... anything an injured guy could need.)
Knife sharpener
3 loaded magazine +50 round box of ammo (strictly under where I can legally do so)

/On my person
HKP30 (strictly where I can legally) + 3 loaded magazines.
Multi tool
Wallet (with bobby pin inside fold)
Smith and Wesson Boot Knife

/in vehicle trunk
Every vehicle fluid known to man, I mean it. From washer fluid to brake fluid to fuel (10 gallons of fuel) I have it.
2 spare tires, and a car jack.
3 Road Flares
Common on the road tool kit for basic repairs.
25 ft rope

So now let's make this a little more "fun"
With my now a day travel prep, or your own travel prep if you got one. Let's say I had to survive exactly 2 weeks (even though in all reality it was probably 24 hours, maybe a little more.) before I ran into the passing motorist. And as a note... I was so far out there just about anywhere was a few days walk.

What would you do?

[nathat]

Just to point out that actual machine pistols used in petty crime is astonishingly rare. Last time I ran an El Prez on the clock I was under 10 seconds, clean. Lots of folks are way faster, of course. That includes turning and reloading, too. As soon as they demonstrate lethal intent by shooting someone, it's time for this:

10 seconds is a long time. Plus these targets could move after initial shot...I just wouldn't put my wife in danger. Not saying you're wrong at all because my first reaction was to blast them all away, but I would never forgive myself if I was wrong or the stress of the situation caused me to mess up somehow. El Prez drill on standing targets with little stress is very different, and I wouldn't expect 10 seconds to save me against someone with a pistol/shotgun already drawn.

[Tater Raider]

Scenario 2:

Don't swerve under heavy braking, either swerve (if you are going to hit something that may kill you, like a tanker truck that's already on fire) or mash that brake pedal to the floor and stay in your lane. Doing both results in Bad Things™. I'm glad you survived but people die all the time from this stuff. Don't veer for deer!

When in the dessert I carry 12 (or more) liters of water with me at all times in addition to my BOB. I can clean out the BOB and walk if I must but I'm staying with the vehicle because it is easier to spot than I am and walking uses up water faster. Flag down passing anything.

[Recon101]

Scenario 2:

Don't swerve under heavy braking, either swerve (if you are going to hit something that may kill you, like a tanker truck that's already on fire) or mash that brake pedal to the floor and stay in your lane. Doing both results in Bad Things™. I'm glad you survived but people die all the time from this stuff. Don't veer for deer!

When in the dessert I carry 12 (or more) liters of water with me at all times in addition to my BOB. I can clean out the BOB and walk if I must but I'm staying with the vehicle because it is easier to spot than I am and walking uses up water faster. Flag down passing anything.

Thanks lol, I have some good stories, but this one is hardly miraculous. However lucky, since leaving my vehicle was a bad idea. I have since taken some defensive driving courses. And Studied collision avoidance. As well as Studied survival more heavily. Because I have to face it, if SHTF ever... I'll be in one or two places most likely. Sitting in a plane... Or driving, tis the nature of my career.

[phil_in_cs]

Just to point out that actual machine pistols used in petty crime is astonishingly rare. Last time I ran an El Prez on the clock I was under 10 seconds, clean. Lots of folks are way faster, of course. That includes turning and reloading, too. As soon as they demonstrate lethal intent by shooting someone, it's time for this:

10 seconds is a long time. Plus these targets could move after initial shot...I just wouldn't put my wife in danger. Not saying you're wrong at all because my first reaction was to blast them all away, but I would never forgive myself if I was wrong or the stress of the situation caused me to mess up somehow. El Prez drill on standing targets with little stress is very different, and I wouldn't expect 10 seconds to save me against someone with a pistol/shotgun already drawn.

Right. That's why I don't shoot El Prez and IDPA any more. OP has this set up so you can die early or die late. Mother fucking shoot every mother fucking mother fucker, and see you in mother fucking Valhalla. The way he set it up that's the only way to go. Violence of action is the chance.

[Nuclear Genie]

Scenario#1). This scenario is eerily familiar to me because I am trying to refinance my house through BofA.

These guys aren't interested in killing everyone or they would have just done that and looted our corpses so giving them my wallet and phone is hunky dory. My phone has a tracking system on it and is code locked so it's mostly useless to them anyhow and I have no money so the wallet doesn't mean shit to me. But I would make an effort to render first aid to the gunshot victim, if nothing else I would insist on offering a prayer.

Now if it looks like we're all going to get killed for some reason, Gunman #2 gets to play human shield for me while I attempt to paste the lookout after "accidentally" dropping my wallet for a brief distraction. Then I jump out the nearest window and run like hell. I am *not* going to stand still and have a showdown with three armed criminals, but I might just wait to ambush them as they exit the building.

Realistically though, starting a gunfight is going to end up disastrously as evidenced by the LEO in this scenario.

[bae]

Realistically though, starting a gunfight is going to end up disastrously as evidenced by the LEO in this scenario.

It is entirely possible there is a wide gulf in the amount of training and ability the LEO has, and some of the posters here...

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Realistically though, starting a gunfight is going to end up disastrously as evidenced by the LEO in this scenario.

It is entirely possible there is a wide gulf in the amount of training and ability the LEO has, and some of the posters here...

Or vice versa.

I'd hand over my wallet and try to gain distance without flashing my CCW. I lost the draw, and there isn't enough in my wallet to try to get killed for it.

[Buddychrist]

1st scenario: If you say kill them then you're gonna die. If you say CCW and reaching it you are gonna die. Just give up unless you are absolutely Bill Munden at which point kill them all with that devils speed.

(just incase you haven't heard of bill)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS9uGktUCrY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

2nd scenario: Is widely ranged because of our differences in location. I live in Florida where water is easily accessed, and very few desolate locations. (even then have tourists or air boaters going to drunk camp)

I only have a small setup in my vehicles.

1. All of my vehicles have a full EMS bag that I personally set up for each vehicle. My Harley is much lighter gear but it revers a small municipality's BLS capability.
2. Thin clear plastic tarps for a green house which in turn when added to a few trees and water create basically a large magnifying glass for cooking.
3. Blankets
4. 3m CBRN mask with 6 spare canisters.
5. Knives
6. Matches
7. Canteens
8. Etc small items
9. Pre sealed fuel cans
10. 5906 9mm S&W
11. Mechanics tool kit, if I am stranded with no cell battery I can strip the cables from my vehicle if the motor was thrown in a wreck and rig a small 12v charger for my cell. All I need is one call if the phone works and gps location will do the rest. Also if you have wet matches, no lighter, etc... Wire strippers would make great fire starters. Even with a cellphone battery you can crank out a fire when needed.

As for 10 gallons of fuel in the back of your vehicle. Please tell me you bought the good Pre sealed canisters that are expensive as hell?

Is your fuel external of the cab or in the trunk of a car?

There's a reason you don't carry fuel inside an automobile, now understandable there are vehicles that have outside attachments. My 95 jeep wrangler YJ I use-to own had two cans on the rear. But it doesn't take a genius to see that you will lose fuel to evaporation unless it's a Pre sealed can.

Good post man tough scenarios

[Tobias05]

...am I wearing my belt buckle with hidden ninja stars?

...does my wife have any weapons?

I've very detail-oriented, must know moar


I don't like the idea of dying at crusty corner sandwich shack, but i don't like the idea of being shot while sitting in a booth if i can feably attempt to do something about it.

[Bahamut]

The Diner Type "F"

Well, I am lucky that I don't keep my firearm concealed above my wallet. I keep my wallet in my front pocket, so I have the added advantage of keeping my gun concealed which buys me more time to plan and act accordingly. Since they did not finish the cop off, it is more likely that was a reaction to the officer drawing his weapon so I don't think they want to kill anyone.

The best path I believe, would be to advise them to move the rest of the people to the walk in freezer. I could convince them that this would be safer because no one else would have to be hurt and wouldn't try anything. Once I knew that the people were safe I could offer to be medic. This would allow me to possibly save the officer from bleeding to death and gain the opportunity to have a gunman go to my car and get my medical bag. I could then take my chance at the two remaining and detain the other.

This is obviously dependent on the gunmen complying to my advise but if they are robbing a diner with those firearms, they have to be amateurs. The whole situation is bad and has a high percentage of me dying by retaliation, but this would save the most people.

[SKARM64]

knee #2 in the balls and turn him into a human shield grab his mp and spray the lookout get my pistol and shot the guy at the safe if meat shield is resisting shot him

[RoneKiln]

knee #2 in the balls and turn him into a human shield grab his mp and spray the lookout get my pistol and shot the guy at the safe if meat shield is resisting shot him

But what would your movie quip be for the audience?

Scenario #1, hopefully I was responsive enough to gun down the badguys when the officer distracted them. I'm no Rambo, but I only need them to be distracted a moment, and there's a very good chance the gal I am out with also is armed and is shooting just as fast as I am. If I was caught off guard enough to miss that chance (very likely), I just hand over my wallet and phone. I missed my chance, best to help hurry them out the door with their loot. Where it gets real hard is if I realized I missed my chance, but my date doesn't, and she draws too late to be of use. Then I'm drawing and screaming and hoping they pay more attention to me than her, cause the thought of seeing her get gunned down scares me more than the thought of getting shot up myself (I reserve the right to change my mind on that if I wake up in a hospital full of holes ).

Scenario #2, not sure what else you could do other than go get help. I keep basic first aid stuff, water, and granola bars in my car. So the water and food might have helped me feel a bit better off than you were. When it all comes down to it though, I walk till I find help or have phone recpetion to call for help.

[Kelvar]

First, I'd hand over my wallet that says "Bad Mother Fucker" on it. . .