Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by dogbane » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:19 pm

squinty wrote:
SeerSavant wrote:
ei8htx wrote:Man Found Dead at Texas 'Occupy' Camp

How many is that now?
Too many...
So, sometimes homeless junkies overdose and kill themselves. That's sad, and it's a black mark against the occupiers if they harbor people in their midst who abuse drugs during a political protest. But I'm not sure how the occupy movement is at fault for these deaths. These were people who chose to ingest dangerous substances who died because of that choice. These weren't deaths inflicted on them by Occupiers, and I don't think it's honest to say that the occupy movement "killed" these people, or that the occupy movement is somehow responsible for their deaths.
I agree with that. Blaming the demonstrators for some of these deaths is like blaming NASCAR for the occasional deaths of people using improper heating sources inside tents. The murder at the Occupy camp in Oakland is a more complicated story. They caught the suspected shooter in Kentucky, by the way, and arrested three others for an earlier assault on the victim.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by Kommander » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:03 pm

It does speak to what kind of person the protests are attracting though.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by dogbane » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:55 pm

Kommander wrote:It does speak to what kind of person the protests are attracting though.
It speaks to one kind. There have been allegations (in New York anyway) that police have been steering problem people to the protest sites to sabotage the demonstrations.
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/occu ... 20?print=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wouldn't be surprised if it has happened, there and elsewhere. It's a pretty effective tactic, like giving infected smallpox blankets to Indians.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by williaty » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:02 pm

Kommander wrote:It does speak to what kind of person the protests are attracting though.
No, it really doesn't. It speaks to what any large group of people attracts. Occupiers, Tea Partiers, Atheists, Christians, gun nuts, tree huggers, soccer fans, football fans, etc.

It doesn't matter. You get a very large number of people all huddled together for an extended period of time in a place not really meant to be inhabited and you will end up with exactly what was seen here regardless of why the group is, well, grouped.

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by squinty » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:49 pm

Well, a large population of homeless people do seem to have glommed onto the occupy movement, for both legitimate and opportunistic reasons:
1) who has a bigger axe to grind / chip on their shoulder about economic strife than someone rendered homeless?
2) some people are homeless because of their own bad habits and poor decisions, that's going to include some drug addicts.

Remember when the media pointed to a few signs and some unfortunate quotes to brand the Tea Part as racists? That was an inaccurate and not completely fair portrayal of that movement. It's just as inaccurate to portray the Occupiers as a bunch of drug addicts.

Were there Tea Partiers with unfortunate, misguided racial attitudes? Sadly, yes. Are there some drug users at occupy events? Sadly, yes. Either of those brushes broad enough to paint the entire movement? No.
Last edited by squinty on Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by Kommander » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:58 pm

Somehow I doubt that some of those other protest movements would generate the number of ODs that we have seen from OWS even if they decided to occupy some place for several months. Dogbane does make a good point and I would not put it past the NYPD to do something like this. However at a certian point a movement must take responsibility for it's members actions. Therefore it is imperative that the OWS movement disowns this kind of behavior. However due to their leaderless and distributed structure it is difficult for them to do so.

I'll admit that I did not see anyone shooting up when I went to visit the local OWS protest. However the smell of pot was definitly in the air.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by squinty » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:05 pm

Kommander wrote:Somehow I doubt that some of those other protest movements would generate the number of ODs that we have seen from OWS even if they decided to occupy some place for several months. Dogbane does make a good point and I would not put it past the NYPD to do something like this. However at a certian point a movement must take responsibility for it's members actions. Therefore it is imperative that the OWS movement disowns this kind of behavior. However due to their leaderless and distributed structure it is difficult for them to do so.

I'll admit that I did not see anyone shooting up when I went to visit the local OWS protest. However the smell of pot was definitly in the air.
I don't put it past some law enforcement agencies to resort to agents provocateurs, but I think Occam's Razor says it's simpler just to assume that there are drug users in the midst of the Occupiers. They should realize that overt drug use pollutes their message, and discouraget that behavior. It also gives the police a sterling, iron clad reason to arrest them.

I believe that they the "occupiers" can and shall do just that. disassociate themselves from or discourage drug use in their ranks. A truly "leaderless" movement couldn't do that, but to a certain extent the "leaderless" quality of the movement is a sort of utopian fiction. There are very committed activists at the core of the movement, and while they might fervently believe in the egalitarian values they espouse, the fact is that they act as leaders.
Last edited by squinty on Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by williaty » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:35 pm

Kommander wrote:Somehow I doubt that some of those other protest movements would generate the number of ODs that we have seen from OWS even if they decided to occupy some place for several months.
You might doubt it, but you'd be wrong.

What you're seeing is the fact that there's that many ODs every damned day among poor people living on the street. When those people happen to mingle with the Occupy people, suddenly it's news whereas the public can't be bothered to care when it's some homeless junkie dying in an alley. When you get that many people together, you will have problems. There's no way around it. What changes is wither or not the news chooses to cover it and wither or not it fits your personal biases. In this case, it's news because OWS has been getting a lot of attention and it fits your personal bias that those people are more likely to be drug users.

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by Kommander » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:46 pm

Honestly I don't really care where junkies decide to go on their finial ride. Perhaps your right and these guys would have shown up no matter who was occupying the park. Well will never know though because the other movements are smart enough not to create a situation where they have a bodycount to explain away.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by ei8htx » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:47 pm

The Tea Party protests and this are night and day.

Have any of yall who support these things actually been to one? It's a bunch of hipsters living in a tent following the latest craze. I don't mean that in a derogatory way; it is in fact a bunch of hipsters (and homeless) living in tents. You can smell the marijuana before you round the block.

I don't recall the Tea Party made up of this element. I don't recall people OD'ing at their rallies either.

If they wanted to be serious about their movement, they would stop bringing in the bottom 1% of society and protest only during the day with the other 98%. Also would help if they had some actual goals and focused towards a means in which to carry out their message, whatever that may be.

Case in point: the Tea Party had rallies, then morphed into several smaller, local groups backing candidates who had similar beliefs. Seems their guys have been winning since after the '08 the election. Ted Kennedy's seat.

With OWS you have a bunch of people carrying on, making a mess, destroying property, and not making a single movement towards accomplishing anything. It's a massive waste of human effort and it looks more like a circus the more it goes on.

Why don't they back a candidate and do something?

If they don't like politics then why not pick up a rifle instead and do something about it? Until then they're a waste of space and a wasted effort. All those cracked skulls and miscarried children for nothing.

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by squinty » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:52 pm

ei8htx wrote:The Tea Party protests and this are night and day.

Have any of yall who support these things actually been to one? It's a bunch of hipsters living in a tent following the latest craze. I don't mean that in a derogatory way; it is in fact a bunch of hipsters (and homeless) living in tents. You can smell the marijuana before you round the block.

I don't recall the Tea Party made up of this element. I don't recall people OD'ing at their rallies either.

If they wanted to be serious about their movement, they would stop bringing in the bottom 1% of society and protest only during the day with the other 98%. Also would help if they had some actual goals and focused towards a means in which to carry out their message, whatever that may be.

Case in point: the Tea Party had rallies, then morphed into several smaller, local groups backing candidates who had similar beliefs. Seems their guys have been winning since after the '08 the election. Ted Kennedy's seat.

With OWS you have a bunch of people carrying on, making a mess, destroying property, and not making a single movement towards accomplishing anything. It's a massive waste of human effort and it looks more like a circus the more it goes on.

Why don't they back a candidate and do something?

If they don't like politics then why not pick up a rifle instead and do something about it? Until then they're a waste of space and a wasted effort. All those cracked skulls and miscarried children for nothing.
You deride them (inaccurately) for being violent then recommend they pick up rifles?
Rallies and public demonstrations are politics, and public protests (by people willing to risk a cracked skull or too) have successfully brought about social change.

A reinstatement of banking regulations, wage and hour reform, more progressive tax system, corrporate lobbying reform, student debt relief and greater investment in infrastructure and education - the goals and demands of the movement, while not always coherently reported, are less nebulous and vague than you think.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by williaty » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:58 pm

The Tea Party movement, to my knowledge, never had a 4-month-long camp out in the middle of the city either. Having rallies every day is NOT the same thing as forming a semi-permanent camp downtown. That alone explains the issues seen here.

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by ei8htx » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:58 pm

squinty wrote:You deride them (inaccurately) for being violent then recommend they pick up rifles?
Rallies and public demonstrations are politics, and public protests (by people willing to risk a cracked skull or too) have successfully brought about social change.

A reinstatement of banking regulations, wage and hour reform, more progressive tax system, corrporate lobbying reform, student debt relief and greater investment in infrastructure and education - the goals and demands of the movement, while not always coherently reported, are less nebulous and vague than you think.
They are violent, in a coward's sense. They pick up planks and rocks, put on motorcyle armor and pick just enough of a fight to get a police reaction, but not enough for the police to warrant deadly force. They sure are quick to cry blood when someone's skull gets cracked with a tear gas grenade.

Immature is the only word that comes to mind to describe this behavior; it's not a great one, but it'll do.

If there was actually some mass conspiracy and the 1% were pissing all over the rest of us, seems like picking up a rifle would be the right course to take. We (America) started with riots and quickly progressed to rifles to get the social change we needed.

But this isn't that, it's a minority of the population as demonstrated by the persons who show up at these rallies.

Having a vague list of demands or sought changes means nothing when you take no effort to acquire that change. Like I said, all this is a wasted effort; it will bring about little to nothing on its present course.

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by ei8htx » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:01 pm

williaty wrote:The Tea Party movement, to my knowledge, never had a 4-month-long camp out in the middle of the city either. Having rallies every day is NOT the same thing as forming a semi-permanent camp downtown. That alone explains the issues seen here.
Yea, once they captured the public's eye they focused that energy into something productive.

Those rallies weren't wasted like these are and will continue to be.

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by williaty » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:12 pm

ei8htx wrote:But this isn't that, it's a minority of the population as demonstrated by the persons who show up at these rallies.
You're missing a critical thing here. What demographic has time to go to a month-long political event? A working, lower-middle-class person who happens to agree with the OWS issues really can't just drop everything and go live in a park for 4 months. The only people who can actually completely alter their lives like that are ones that have already lost nearly everything (or who can get funding to go do this, which I think is pretty weird). The OWS stuff was a constant topic around town for about a month or so. I can't count the number of times I heard something like "Yeah, I agree with them, but I have kids/a job/a mortgage and just can't take that much time off". A lot of those people would do it on the weekend, some even flying to different cities to participate, but they all went back to work on Monday morning. The majority of the people I've talked to about this agree with what the OWS people want, even those that strongly disagree with how they're trying to go about getting it.

A minority protesting is not the same as a minority feeling that way. Most Americans cannot be bothered to get off their asses and actually do something about what they believe in.

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by Kommander » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:22 pm

williaty wrote:The majority of the people I've talked to about this agree with what the OWS people want, even those that strongly disagree with how they're trying to go about getting it.
The major poling organizations disagree with your conclusions. In fact I would argue that long term the OWS movement has damaged the very issues that they chose to champion.
squinty wrote:A reinstatement of banking regulations, wage and hour reform, more progressive tax system, corrporate lobbying reform, student debt relief and greater investment in infrastructure and education - the goals and demands of the movement, while not always coherently reported, are less nebulous and vague than you think.
As I have said before they are going to continue to go nowhere fast if they continue with their current tactics.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by williaty » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:48 pm

Kommander wrote:The major poling organizations disagree with your conclusions.
How did they ask the question? That's the single biggest elephant in the room with polling: you can create the poll result you want by choosing how you word the question. For instance, compare these two questions:

1) Do you support the OWS's trying to force financial regulation on large banks?
2) Do you support legislation that would protect individual citizens from losing their life savings when large banks make risky investments?

It's the same question in terms of policy, but you're going to see a HUGE difference in polling results. Whenever you are interested in the results of a poll, you MUST read the actual questions asked before you can understand the results of the poll.

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by Kommander » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:55 pm

Why must all the hoops be on fire?

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by williaty » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:00 pm

Your linked poll basically shows what I just said: Support for OWS is lower than support for the goals of OWS. It depends on how you ask the question.

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by Kommander » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:07 pm

Well I think the two are separate entities. Also the variance is a whopping 1%. The questions are straight forward. At this time is appears that the vast majority of people are neutral on the subject of both the movement it's self and their goals.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by phil_in_cs » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:26 pm

A fundamental requirement in this section: advocacy of political issues or political groups is forbidden. Do not take sides; don't sponsor one or the other. We are preppers, and prepping for a massive civil disturbance, getting caught up in a riot, or the fall out of these are legit discussions.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by squinty » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:54 pm

ei8htx wrote:
squinty wrote:You deride them (inaccurately) for being violent then recommend they pick up rifles?
Rallies and public demonstrations are politics, and public protests (by people willing to risk a cracked skull or too) have successfully brought about social change.

A reinstatement of banking regulations, wage and hour reform, more progressive tax system, corrporate lobbying reform, student debt relief and greater investment in infrastructure and education - the goals and demands of the movement, while not always coherently reported, are less nebulous and vague than you think.
They are violent, in a coward's sense. They pick up planks and rocks, put on motorcyle armor and pick just enough of a fight to get a police reaction, but not enough for the police to warrant deadly force. They sure are quick to cry blood when someone's skull gets cracked with a tear gas grenade.

Immature is the only word that comes to mind to describe this behavior; it's not a great one, but it'll do.

If there was actually some mass conspiracy and the 1% were pissing all over the rest of us, seems like picking up a rifle would be the right course to take. We (America) started with riots and quickly progressed to rifles to get the social change we needed.

But this isn't that, it's a minority of the population as demonstrated by the persons who show up at these rallies.

Having a vague list of demands or sought changes means nothing when you take no effort to acquire that change. Like I said, all this is a wasted effort; it will bring about little to nothing on its present course.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by squinty » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:12 pm

phil_in_cs wrote:A fundamental requirement in this section: advocacy of political issues or political groups is forbidden. Do not take sides; don't sponsor one or the other. We are preppers, and prepping for a massive civil disturbance, getting caught up in a riot, or the fall out of these are legit discussions.
I agree, since this is a prepping site. (And I would comply even if I didn't agree, since it's not my sandbox etc.) But one doesn't prep in a vacuum, and sometimes mere survival isn't a person's only priority. Those of us most likely to get caught up in a riot are those of us who do take a side. Some of us are police, some of us are interested bystanders and photographers, some of us may be protesters. We can be on different sides, yet all be acting in good faith and conscience. The survival advice will always be - avoid the confrontation, stay out of the fray, don't take a side. But that's not always the most realistic advice, since in addition to prepping we also live our lives and participate in our communities and get involved in politics (wildly divergent politics.)

I also think, ODA 226's brilliant refutation of the concept notwithstanding, that a city in the midst of social upheaval (short of civil war and snipers) might be one of few places where the grey man concept still has some merit. In the sixties it was hippies and hardhats. Right now, clothing, dress, and mannerisms are sort of uniforms indicative of one side or another, and people judge friend or foe in part by social cues. If you feel partisan and want to announce an affiliation, dress the part, but it may be possible to stay nondescript or give fewer indicators of allegiance via dress or behavior.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by SeerSavant » Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:09 pm

Clarification, when I said that the death was one "too many" I wasn't laying blame anywhere.... And I wasn't saying that anyone "killed" anyone.

I do however wonder, that within a large group, one person could die of a drug overdose, yeah I know it happens, its just phenomenally sad and disheartening. You would think that somebody would have noticed in a large community.

But the way any large group will try and distance themselves from a tragic death.... Simply beggars understanding.


Then again, there have been cases where murders will go on in plain sight of multiple witnesses, and no one does a damn thing. Each one of those is one too many.


These do not make up the majority of the OWS, I know... But in such a large group, it seems like too many people have their blinders on...

So to sum up...

I'm not laying blame, and realistically you simply cannot blame a group for the actions of a drug addict.

But I would like to see them take some kind of responsibility... Not, "here, arrest me" but policing up their own much better, paying attention to those who are simply there to blend in...

But so far, not many seem to want to have any kind of "responsibility"....


Shit, I don't think I actually made sense there....


Don't go throwing blame around, or if you do, don't blame me... It was not my intent....
But I said it, and it could be taken the wrong way the way I wrote it, so i'm just trying to clarify what I meant.
Taking responsibility for any argument caused by it, as it were....

I think that makes a more sense, Well, maybe...




I'm sorry if anyone took it the wrong way, rather than just a sadness that someone, surrounded by so many people, could die such a lonely death...
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