Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by TDW586 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:46 pm

To clarify, what I am asking is, are you saying that a "peaceful protest" can never be broken up, regardless of whether they are, say, blocking traffic, or camping on the street, or shitting in the gutters, and so on? If you're "protesting", you automatically become immune from law? This is a serious question.

EDIT: On second thought, this is political, PM me if you want. I don't want to discuss it here and get this thread locked.

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by razi » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:57 pm

TDW586 wrote:No reason? He was in an area, where for whatever reason police had been ordered to clear a protest, and refused to leave. Are you saying that police should never clear an area, for any reason?
Stop trying to put words into my mouth or trying to build straw-man arguments. You're not on the winning side of this discussion in the slightest and your attempt at misdirection is not going unnoticed. Your clarification didn't do anything to help your position, either, because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

There's a difference between clearing an area and using excessive force, and hospitalization of the nonviolent is obviously the latter. With that many riot cops around, he could have easily been arrested without being beaten into submission. Why are you willfully ignoring the concept of discretion of force?

The original point still stands. Amateur journalism is important to a free society, hence the Freedom of the Press part of the Bill of Rights.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by WY_Not » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:59 pm

Whatever. There were large numbers of protesters. Large numbers of cops. The situation was volatile. Any rational person would know that the posibility for violence existed. I'm not getting into whether the protesters were right or whether the cops were. I'm not blaming the victim. However, she still has to shoulder some of the responsibility for putting herself and her baby into that situation. The example of someone walking through a bad neighborhood is just a red herring. The muggers in your example absolutely break the law whether the victim is pregnant or not. They should be nailed to the wall for their crime. The mugging victim may not have a real choice but to walk through that neighborhood to get home. They may not have any real options with regards to getting out of the situation. The reporter however did have a choice. She did have options. She chose to put the life of her baby in jeopardy for the sake of the story. She is going to have to live with that choice the rest of her life. Even if the LEOs were absolutely, totally in the wrong, I still think she made a very bad choice.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by TDW586 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:02 pm

I was doing no such thing. I'm sorry if you felt I misrepresented what you said. I think you have very little understanding of the realities of physical force; all methods of arrest can cause injury, and that would include 6 180+ pound men in full riot gear tackling him as much as striking him with a baton. In any case, you're entitled to you opinion and this is becoming political, so I'll bow out. Have a good one man.

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by Gingerbread Man » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:08 pm

I'm just going to chime in and say you are actively resisting when you block a road or sidewalk AND ignore police orders to disperse. If your right was violated, you do not discuss it with the police, you discuss it with a judge and a lawyer. Full stop. For a group of folks who generally advocate compliance with the law and not provoking a police response ya'all sure are picking side with people who are.
You have a right to assemble, peacefully but you can not and it's not lawful to do so without a permit nor is it lawful to stop the general public from going about their travels.

You can not simultaneous express your rights while denying the publics and cause a public disturbance that could cause the potential injury to life and property. Sorry, no. That is the law and if you get a face full of pepper spray because you didn't obey a lawful order then too bad. No two ways about it, they were lawfully told to disperse.

If you're pregnant, you shouldn't have been there. Full stop. She was trying to be a victim. That's not right to stack the deck against them. Have any of you ever been in a riot? Do you have any idea how fucking loud it is with people screaming all around you? She could have been screaming her head of and the cop could have not heard a word. Do you have any idea how scared the cops are? The cops are a very few against a very hostile majority, yes, when it comes down to them using force against you they are lawfully able to do so. I've been in riots in Haiti, it was so damn loud I couldn't hear what anyone next to me was saying even when they were yelling. That by far was the scariest thing I've ever been in and we weren't the focus. I couldn't imagine being a cop and trying to enforce rule of law.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by dogbane » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:10 pm

One thing we do know for certain: Oakland PD doesn't have any Oath Keepers on its force.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by TDW586 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:14 pm

EDIT: This isn't the place for this discussion. People have very strong feelings about this issue, ZS isn't the place to express them. I'm out, peace guys.
Last edited by TDW586 on Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by Chef » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:18 pm

I got no answers, but it seems to me this whole "rule of law" thing has more than one facet. Yes, rule of law is at least partially there to protect the general welfare. But the present "Rule of Law" system is heavily slanted in favor of wealth and power, and the standard Civics 101 "work within the system to affect positive change" they taught us all in school doesn't appear to be working, unless of course you're drawing your paycheck from that system. Oathkeepers: nice sentiment, but a guaranteed pension trumps sentiment 99% of the time.


Anyway, in response to the thread title, looks like Bloomberg was right.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by dogbane » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:24 pm

TDW586 wrote:EDIT: This isn't the place for this discussion. People have very strong feelings about this issue, ZS isn't the place to express them. I'm out, peace guys.
I held it back for a long time. Even posted and deleted it once. But the silence of that group is deafening and I felt it needed to be said, especially after all the attention they were given on this forum, and the sig links to the organization in people's profiles.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by Gingerbread Man » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:32 pm

I just got done watching the videos of the Iraq war vets. In every instance they were told to disperse. Repeatedly. How can the police know the intentions of the protestors that stand up to a police riot line? Who are yelling at them and linking arms. The second video of the guy standing by himself clearly showed he refused police orders, resisted arrest and put his hand on the officer and pushed back. Nope, he broke the law and resisted against 6-7 officers. He was completely at fault. He broke the law.

Scott Olsen was tragic however, same story, he refused lawful orders. Yes, he got hit in the head, sucks. However, I seriously doubt it was on purpose and I fully believe the police intended that CS munition for the crowd. After he was down on the ground and the crowd rushed in to help him, how are the police suppose to know the intend to that group. How do you know the police weren't already sending in a medic. Sorry, a medic should not have to work on someone with a large hostile crowd around him.

Yes, those people who were trespassing on citibank property were pulled into a secure area for arrest, what do you think the police are going to leave themselves in the middle of a hostile crowd as they process the person. Come on.....

Just FYI: Those riot helmets and gas masks obscure vision and severely muffle the ears. Point blank, you can't see all that well and not can you hear all that well either. Just a pro-tip: When the police are in riot gear, they're no long listening and they are only going to give orders.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by squinty » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:37 pm

Regular Guy wrote:I just got done watching the videos of the Iraq war vets. In every instance they were told to disperse. Repeatedly. How can the police know the intentions of the protestors that stand up to a police riot line? Who are yelling at them and linking arms.
Oh no, the terrifying, menacing spectacle of linked arms!

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Linking arms is not even remotely an aggressive act. It very clearly signals the intention of the protesters to resist passively, not aggressively. It is very difficult to launch any sort of attack, or resist any directed attack, with your arms linked on either side. You see people linking arms instead of dispersing, that's a very good clue that their intentions are to 1) resist your attempts to move them 2) without launching any sort of aggressive attack on you.
Regular Guy wrote:The second video of the guy standing by himself clearly showed he refused police orders, resisted arrest and put his hand on the officer and pushed back. Nope, he broke the law and resisted against 6-7 officers. He was completely at fault. He broke the law.

Scott Olsen was tragic however, same story, he refused lawful orders. Yes, he got hit in the head, sucks. However, I seriously doubt it was on purpose and I fully believe the police intended that CS munition for the crowd. After he was down on the ground and the crowd rushed in to help him, how are the police suppose to know the intend to that group. How do you know the police weren't already sending in a medic. Sorry, a medic should not have to work on someone with a large hostile crowd around him.

Yes, those people who were trespassing on citibank property were pulled into a secure area for arrest, what do you think the police are going to leave themselves in the middle of a hostile crowd as they process the person. Come on.....
Come on....Those OWS supporters who went into Citibank to withdraw funds were Citibank customers, with accounts at Citibank. Sure, they were on bank property - during bank hours, to conduct banking business, in the lobby of the bank where customers are supposed to be. That isn't trespassing. Even though the bank didn't happen to like the political motivations some of their customers had for withdrawing money from their accounts, those customers had as much right to be there as any other Citibank customer.
To be guilty of trespassing you have to refuse to leave an area when ordered to. How can you actively prevent a person from leaving an establishment, then charge them with a crime for not leaving? Additionally, many of the people arrested at that Citibank weren't even affiliated with the occupy movement. They just happened to be in the bank when the police came to arrest everyone inside for trespassing.

Regular Guy wrote:Just FYI: Those riot helmets and gas masks obscure vision and severely muffle the ears. Point blank, you can't see all that well and not can you hear all that well either. Just a pro-tip: When the police are in riot gear, they're no long listening and they are only going to give orders.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by ei8htx » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:40 pm

So you can incite a riot, ignore police orders, and then complain about "police brutality" when things get a tad out of hand.

Kewl.

Oh btw, how many people have the police killed at these OWS rallies, and how many people have been killed by the OWS rallies?

That's all.

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by the_alias » Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:19 pm

I'm temporarily locking this.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by the_alias » Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:58 am

I'm re-opening this thread.

However. If it goes south and if people can't hold their tongue and keep politics out of it I will nuke this from orbit and offending parties can expect repercussions. Those who have already skated over thin ice in the past should seriously consider what they post here.

Summary article of the global reach of Occupy: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/no ... -are-world" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by ei8htx » Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:34 am

Occupy Wall Street’s Newest Supporter: Miley Cyrus?

Not a terrible way to restart the thread :D

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by Kommander » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:19 am

the_alias wrote:Summary article of the global reach of Occupy: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/no ... -are-world" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The author of that article either does not know or does not mention that the campaign on NYC and Oakland noonger exist. The only major camps left are in Boston and DC. As for Miss Cyrus the irony is so thick one can eat it with a spoon.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by the_alias » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:28 am

Kommander wrote:
the_alias wrote:Summary article of the global reach of Occupy: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/no ... -are-world" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The author of that article either does not know or does not mention that the campaign on NYC and Oakland noonger exist. The only major camps left are in Boston and DC. As for Miss Cyrus the irony is so thick one can eat it with a spoon.
Dude did you read the article?
I mean read not skim because

The US's first occupation was eventually cleared from its New York base in Zuccotti Park on 15 November, two days shy of its two-month anniversary
The camp was finally shut down in a relatively peaceful operation by police on 14 November.
I am disappoint :(
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by Kommander » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:48 am

Ok ya got me I missed that. Still with only two camps still operational I wonder what kind of impact OWS is going to have. There is talk of reestablishing the camps in the spring but the cities will be prepared for them.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by ninja-elbow » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:38 pm

Some movement in Portland, and Oregon in general, to do things like "occupy" city hall meetings and such. Much evidence of this nationwide and where I tend to think this oughta' be going. Go to some politician's rally. Bother them, they're part of the issue. Not me, some dude just breaking 30k a year and hoping to live out a mediocre existance in a small house with a small family. I'm all for disrupting a politician's rally or asking "tough" questions angrily at an open city hall meeting.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by raptor » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:42 pm

The GNO occupy movement are still there but they are mainly the homeless hangers on. The group has been not been asked to move but the mayor has indicated that they may be wearing out their welcome if they stay into 2012.

I suspect after Christmas they will asked to move. Christmas is a big deal here and it would be out of character to ask someone to leave during Christmas Week. The Sugarbowl Game is big tourist draw for New Years and I suspect they will be relocated before that time. I do not anticipate any violence when they are moved. Time will tell though.


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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by squinty » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:22 pm

Regular Guy wrote:
squinty wrote:
TDW586 wrote:No worries.
Are ya sure you don't want to fight about it, though? Arm wrestle? Pugil sticks? Dance off?[
I'll challenge you to a break dance session. No matter how you slice it, squint is good folks. I don't always agree but he's a good raccoon none the less.
Kind of you to say. I sometimes foam at the mouth a bit when I'm excited. That kind of delivery can hurt an otherwise sound argument. TDW took the high road by simply refusing the bait, which was cool of him. I still want to argue, but I'll do it elsewhere.

On Topic: we may soon see the demise of the various "Occupy" movements - which IMO cannot fairly be described as riots - but we'll continue to see civil unrest as a result of economic troubles, and it will get worse.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by DarkAxel » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:03 pm

In the earlier thread concerning the OWS crowd that got locked, I made some predictions. In that thread, when I said that I didn't think that much would come from it, I was mostly thinking of things like civil disturbance, rioting, and violence on the scale of the G-20 and WTO protests that got out of hand. It seems that my thoughts WRT violence have been proven true (barring a few incidents that didn't erupt into massive SHTF type incidents).

And I have to admit, I believed that the movement itself would not make that much of an impact. In that, I have been proven wrong. In cities, towns, and communities around the country, the protests sparked a lot of interest. Even in my small neck of the woods, people talked about the Occupiers and what the people thought about the Occupy movement's goals and overall message. Corporate greed, governmental oversight of the economy, and self-sufficient living/disaster prep (which came as a surprise to me) are the topics of a lot of discussions here. I can't help but think that some of the people talking about those things will vote in the next set of national elections. I refuse to speculate as to the influence that the Occupy movement will have (and I highly dissuade others from speculating here on ZS), but I do acknowledge that the influence of the Occupy movement will have an impact on the 2012 elections.

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by the_alias » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:38 am

I cleaned up this thread... carry on...
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by razi » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:39 am

DarkAxel wrote:In the earlier thread concerning the OWS crowd that got locked, I made some predictions. In that thread, when I said that I didn't think that much would come from it, I was mostly thinking of things like civil disturbance, rioting, and violence on the scale of the G-20 and WTO protests that got out of hand. It seems that my thoughts WRT violence have been proven true (barring a few incidents that didn't erupt into massive SHTF type incidents).

And I have to admit, I believed that the movement itself would not make that much of an impact. In that, I have been proven wrong. In cities, towns, and communities around the country, the protests sparked a lot of interest. Even in my small neck of the woods, people talked about the Occupiers and what the people thought about the Occupy movement's goals and overall message. Corporate greed, governmental oversight of the economy, and self-sufficient living/disaster prep (which came as a surprise to me) are the topics of a lot of discussions here. I can't help but think that some of the people talking about those things will vote in the next set of national elections. I refuse to speculate as to the influence that the Occupy movement will have (and I highly dissuade others from speculating here on ZS), but I do acknowledge that the influence of the Occupy movement will have an impact on the 2012 elections.

Mods, if I have stepped out of line here, smack my peener and I'll delete this post.
There's a lot of talk within OWS about voting in the primaries and local elections, too, instead of just the November national election. This is something that, no matter where you sit on the political spectrum, should be encouraged.
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