Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

[DannusMaximus]

Squinty, I'll mention the lost purchasing cost on a 1/2 price SNAP card sale to the next people I see conducting such a transaction. If I survive, I'll get back with you on how it's recieved...

[the_alias]

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/09/ ... hpt=hp_bn1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Article is food for thought.

[NoAm]

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/09/ ... hpt=hp_bn1

Article is food for thought.

I could see this affecting ALL postal services though, not just the US. How is it in other parts of the world?

[m ellis allen]

I believe issuance of a SNAP card or WIC card, or any other host of .gov freebies also comes with education on how to read labels, etc., but could be wrong on that.

i know that in Maine atleast, with the WIC program there are only certain item that are approved to be bought and the items are based on nutritional value. food stamps on the other hand have no such restrictions except no booze, no ciggs, no hot food (ready to eat)

[squinty]

Squinty, I'll mention the lost purchasing cost on a 1/2 price SNAP card sale to the next people I see conducting such a transaction. If I survive, I'll get back with you on how it's recieved...

You should videotape the conversation.

[ei8htx]

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/09/ ... hpt=hp_bn1

Article is food for thought.

So what then? Should we move the 15% unemployed and their families into gov't camps and provide them the basic necessities of food and shelter on the govt's dime?

Our current system is unsustainable now and we do have food stamps, section 8, and social security for those healthy people who claim the inability to work.

Maybe one day we'll have most of our industries completely automated and we can live in some utopian society where everyone is free to pursue whatever they want, without having to work towards acquiring food and shelter. But then the robots will just form an insurrection

The issue never has been here, or in most all recent history whether or not there's physically enough food to feed everyone, or enough people to run a water treatment plant. Sure, we certainly could enslave a workforce and redistribute food and other products throughout the society. That's always been an option. But no one wants to live in a society like that though, except maybe the author.

I think he should stick to being a "media theorist" (whatever the hell that is) and leave civics to economists. We need real, moderate solutions, not some quasi-communist scheme of redistributing life's basic necessities for free.

[pahwraith]

A better name for that article should be "Is the middle class obsolete".

Ugh, thankfully I"ve worked and paid of school with cash and pell grants only. I still have two years to go and I'm seriously thinking of switching my major to engineering or a related field. Luckily, I've worked towards economics/econometrics so I have a lot of math under my belt.

To quote the simpsons "And as you go forth today remember always your duty is clear: To build and maintain those robots".

[Valarius]

Thing is, you have to be willing to move off your couch and look for sales. Cooking for your family IS less convenient than just going to McDonald's or giving your toddler a sippy cup full of Mountain Dew and a bag of potato chips for breakfast. You think I'm kidding about that diet combination? You would be wrong.

You're not wrong at all about that diet combination. Just about who eats it. On my workshift for a minor industrial plastic manufacturer, we all work 12 hour day and night shifts, at least 48 hours per week. Base pay starts at nine dollars an hour, with incremental .50 and dollar raises given the longer you work there. It's not much; my co-worker makes about 14 to 15 dollars per hour and he's been a full-time employee for three years. Most have families and have lots of different bills to pay, so most hop to the local McDonalds and grab a combo meal for dinner.

That's all. Since we're all working 12 hour shifts, in between working and sleeping we don't have a lot of time to cook. I'm fortunate in that my mother loves cooking and gardening and I get fresh free produce in my food. Nobody else does.

[the_alias]

A better name for that article should be "Is the middle class obsolete".

Historically bad things have happened when the middle class becomes too small or destroyed.


ei8htx - I'm going to assume those are directed at the board as a whole and hope you don't mind if I don't answer as I don't think it will be a fruitful discussion.

[ei8htx]

ei8htx - I'm going to assume those are directed at the board as a whole and hope you don't mind if I don't answer as I don't think it will be a fruitful discussion.

I hope you don't think that was aimed at you at all. It certainly wasn't. I read the article and all my comments were directed as a response to the article and to the author. I didn't assume you were advocating whether it was a good idea or if you even had an opinion on it at all.

It was an interesting read (if shortsighted IMO), I just disagree almost entirely with the author.

As for the article on self identity: I'm not so sure it applies here, since we're discussing a civics system which doesn't currently exist (if I'm inferring correctly what the author of the first article is implying as a solution) . It's not left or right wing as what's debated in the Western world today; it's a whole new approach, and while the author mentions that perhaps the other extreme is libertarianism, I'm certainly not that either. However, if you think this sorta thing falls under what the 2nd article states, we certainly don't have to discuss it.

I didn't mean to come off as hostile. Nonverbal communication says more than verbal does, and since that's imperceivable online through text only communication, it can be difficult to gauge how someone feels about a topic. IRL I'm more lighthearted and smiling as I shoot an idea down so I don't come off condescending, but my speech is mostly unchanged.

I like to think I'm open minded, and my political beliefs have evolved a lot through the years, and more so as I go to school. I'm open to the discussion of an entirely new economic or civics system, and I don't necessarily think we in the US or you guys in Europe have the best system, or that there's any one solution.

Anyways, to sum up since I'm rambling, I'm sorry if I came off as antagonizing or aggressive.

[the_alias]

I was post coffee reading your post - no I didn't worry they were directed at me but I also didn't want to respond and just ignore the questions you posed!

It isn't that I don't find such topics interesting but it is always hard to gauge where people being to identify with something and it becomes personal opinion based. That article also just reminded me why it's so good here to not have religion and politics.

In all honesty I think a shrinking job market is something that has the potential to be a real problem for the world in the coming decades.

There is a lot of talk around about the need for a new economic theory and civics approach - many of those who propose such ideas are of political persuasions that can be quite extreme at times - more moderate in others. Sooner or later though a production based oil-based economy is going to experience some problems - the problem of perpetual growth in a closed system (which is why we need to go to space!).

I am interested to hear thoughts on that as long as we aren't breaking the rules!

[DannusMaximus]

Thing is, you have to be willing to move off your couch and look for sales. Cooking for your family IS less convenient than just going to McDonald's or giving your toddler a sippy cup full of Mountain Dew and a bag of potato chips for breakfast. You think I'm kidding about that diet combination? You would be wrong.

You're not wrong at all about that diet combination. Just about who eats it. On my workshift for a minor industrial plastic manufacturer, we all work 12 hour day and night shifts, at least 48 hours per week. Base pay starts at nine dollars an hour, with incremental .50 and dollar raises given the longer you work there. It's not much; my co-worker makes about 14 to 15 dollars per hour and he's been a full-time employee for three years. Most have families and have lots of different bills to pay, so most hop to the local McDonalds and grab a combo meal for dinner.

That's all. Since we're all working 12 hour shifts, in between working and sleeping we don't have a lot of time to cook. I'm fortunate in that my mother loves cooking and gardening and I get fresh free produce in my food. Nobody else does.

Having to grab a quick meal to fit around your work schedule is one thing. Giving your barely walking children soda and chips as their primary source of nutrition is what I was talking about. Also, a loaf of bread and a pound of sliced turkey and a large bag of pretzels will set you back about $10 or so around here. Throw in a bag of apples and it's another $4. If you get at least 5 or 6 lunches out of that at around $2.25 a lunch, I think your co-workers would find they're saving money, time (walk to your locker instead of driving to McDonald's), AND getting better nutrition.

[squinty]

Thing is, you have to be willing to move off your couch and look for sales. Cooking for your family IS less convenient than just going to McDonald's or giving your toddler a sippy cup full of Mountain Dew and a bag of potato chips for breakfast. You think I'm kidding about that diet combination? You would be wrong.

You're not wrong at all about that diet combination. Just about who eats it. On my workshift for a minor industrial plastic manufacturer, we all work 12 hour day and night shifts, at least 48 hours per week. Base pay starts at nine dollars an hour, with incremental .50 and dollar raises given the longer you work there. It's not much; my co-worker makes about 14 to 15 dollars per hour and he's been a full-time employee for three years. Most have families and have lots of different bills to pay, so most hop to the local McDonalds and grab a combo meal for dinner.

That's all. Since we're all working 12 hour shifts, in between working and sleeping we don't have a lot of time to cook. I'm fortunate in that my mother loves cooking and gardening and I get fresh free produce in my food. Nobody else does.

Having to grab a quick meal to fit around your work schedule is one thing. Giving your barely walking children soda and chips as their primary source of nutrition is what I was talking about. Also, a loaf of bread and a pound of sliced turkey and a large bag of pretzels will set you back about $10 or so around here. Throw in a bag of apples and it's another $4. If you get at least 5 or 6 lunches out of that at around $2.25 a lunch, I think your co-workers would find they're saving money, time (walk to your locker instead of driving to McDonald's), AND getting better nutrition.

Well, a disproportionate number of people who get food cards - not all, by any means - are in a position to need nutritional assistance precisely because they lack the kind of budgetary foresight DanMax describes. Not every poor person is irresponsible or a poor planner, not by a long shot, but most irresponsible bad planners do end up poor.
For the last couple decades I've had a serious diner problem, in that I'm always up at weird hours and tend to end up in 24 hour greasy spoons - which places appeal to me, for some reason. Wasted a lot of money on some greasy unhealthy food, some delicious, some not so much. Wish I'd brown bagged more. Made up for some of the loss by fully exploiting the free coffee refills.
Lived all summer off mom's tomatoes. We just stuck the plants in the dirt and ignored them until big red juicy tomatoes started showing up. Better than any grocery tomatoes, made awesome 'mater sandwiches and absolutely free - a friend just gave us the plants. Should expand the backyard poverty garden with some beans or corn or squash.

[duodecima]

I have seen a baby I delivered drinking a bottle of mountain dew at the local deli - and this was not a "bad mom" - she puts energy into doing programs and things that should be good for her kid too.

There's some cognitive science suggesting that willpower is actually a finite commodity for individuals, and that making decisions in the setting of scarcity draws on a finite pool of cognitive energy, so to speak. The same work is being discussed as interesting by both left and right leaning sources.

The new republic - http://www.tnr.com/article/environment- ... l?page=0,0
David Brooks http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/08/opinion/08brooks.html

[TDW586]

I have seen a baby I delivered drinking a bottle of mountain dew at the local deli - and this was not a "bad mom" - she puts energy into doing programs and things that should be good for her kid too.

There's some cognitive science suggesting that willpower is actually a finite commodity for individuals, and that making decisions in the setting of scarcity draws on a finite pool of cognitive energy, so to speak. The same work is being discussed as interesting by both left and right leaning sources.

The new republic - http://www.tnr.com/article/environment- ... l?page=0,0
David Brooks http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/08/opinion/08brooks.html

I see your larger point, but there's a big difference between a baby which is generally provided proper nutrition being allowed the occasional unhealthy treat, and a baby which is provided with nothing but unhealthy foods as a matter of course.

[ZombieGranny]

I know this is continuing the thread drift, but -
If we weren't such determined people Tommy would be eating french fries and soda pop all the time too.
He's reached the phase where he doesn't want to eat solids, and the temptation is there to give him anything solid he will eat! ugh

[mough]

I had to rewrite this post ten times, this was the first one that didn't violate the no politics policy.

ugh

[duodecima]

I see your larger point, but there's a big difference between a baby which is generally provided proper nutrition being allowed the occasional unhealthy treat, and a baby which is provided with nothing but unhealthy foods as a matter of course.

In no way is this an indictment of any parent who's ever given the baby a treat, especially under exceptional circumstances. My example was meant to be a child for whom, I have reason to believe, this was not an occasional thing, and yet who I have personal knowledge (since we were in the same baby-parent group for a year) was also putting some of her limited resources into thinking about and doing what was good for her kid.

I know this is continuing the thread drift, but -
If we weren't such determined people Tommy would be eating french fries and soda pop all the time too.
He's reached the phase where he doesn't want to eat solids, and the temptation is there to give him anything solid he will eat! ugh

I don't think it's exactly drift (OK, so it's not drifting from the SNAP/obesity/nutrition discussion!! The original thread, weelll....) It's an example of one factor in why things like that happen.

I think both of these things - the human psychology around willpower and decision making under stress, are going to be there post-disaster/PAW, and maybe if I understand how it might impact my decisionmaking, I can make better decisions when those decisions really count. And some of those decisions will involve feeding picky-picky-preschooler, since the "they'll eat if they're hungry enough" doesn't always hold true under severe stress, and the younger children are more quickly vulnerable to malnutrition (witness the death rate for children under 5 in Somalia right now).

I had to rewrite this post ten times, this was the first one that didn't violate the no politics policy.

ugh

Yeah, which is why as fun as it would be to discuss trying to apply above psychology to government programs and other people's decisions, I'll stop too.

Now back to your regularly scheduled jobs crisis and food riots!

[Soren]

2 Things

1.) I've always hated when people say "(enter emergency here) may occur in the USA". Whatever, so might a meteor strike. Is it an imminent threat? Is it a real problem right now? Bloomberg seemed to be saying "its possible" not "i'm seriously worried about this as a security risk to Americans presently." You need to tell me why, right now, preferably with historical precedent, the problem is news-worthy. Otherwise isn't he just stating "unemployment is a problem"?

2.) In relation to the SNAP + obesity deal - there is a problem called "food deserts" which affect most large urban centers in the world, (not the entire city, but most urban areas have food deserts), in which food is available, but not nutritious food. Fruits and vegetables are often more expensive and less available than they are in suburban, more up-scale urban, and even rural. (the food desert idea takes into account the transportation factor as well - rural poor are more likely to have a functioning vehicle than urban poor). Couple this with less education about what constitutes good nutrition, and you have a prescription for obesity.

[books]

Personal opinion...

I don't think they'll be any significant riots right away. If there's long term unemployment and a continued rise in poverty, I suspect we'll see a significant and continued rise in crime - both violent and non-violent like happened in the `70s and `80s (or so I heard; I was busy watching Thundercats). Is the increased level of violent crime is sustained, then there will probably be some rioting, but only after crime's been at high levels for an extended period of time.

In response to this, I could see the government trying to treat the symptoms of violent crime by re-regulating firearms and making them harder to obtain. Its kind of a governmental tradition to control firearms when they're politically incapable of treating the actual cause of increased violent crime. Its gives the impression of taking action without actually solving the underlying social problem (same goes for victims' rights, tough on crime, longer prison sentences, etc).

[mough]

As far as the government taking action witout solving the underlying problems:

Had our trucks broken into over the weekend, and items were stolen. The deputy more or less said "sorry your luck" I guess its too much to ask to have police patrol the streets after dark, but they sure as heck can have 3 road blocks along my drive to work checking registrations, and at least 2 speed traps.

I guess speed traps and check points bring in more money than catching bad guys. Glorified tax collectors...

[shrapnel]

Mough, that seems to be neither germane to the discussion, nor helpful in any way. Please do try to stay on topic. That goes for everyone.

[Ten Eight]

As far as the government taking action witout solving the underlying problems:

Had our trucks broken into over the weekend, and items were stolen. The deputy more or less said "sorry your luck" I guess its too much to ask to have police patrol the streets after dark, but they sure as heck can have 3 road blocks along my drive to work checking registrations, and at least 2 speed traps.

I guess speed traps and check points bring in more money than catching bad guys. Glorified tax collectors...

I'm sorry for what happened. However, this is how we tend to catch people like those that stole from you.

[dogbane]

No riots yet, but there seem to be some crowds forming.