Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by J.C. » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:24 am

Lynxian wrote:Did any of you really bother to check up on EU military statistics before commenting on the EU's inability to perform a military action? Just because they're unwilling and the EU is about as effective as a spongue against a flood does not mean the combined military strength is not enough.
I think it *is* enough. But I am still a little torqued to find out our NATO allies can field a max of three aircraft carriers, all of them marginal in one or more ways. Even if they were not needed against Libya they could be needed in another military action and it seems Europe is content to sit back and let the US spend all the money on defense.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by J.C. » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:30 am

Blacksmith wrote: The range for the Stinger you offer is curious
I did not offer a range, but a ceiling. My point was only that fixed wings are not very vulnerable because the slow ones are a lot higher than that deck. As you point out the fast-movers are not very vulnerable either.
Wikipedia wrote: The FIM-92B can attack aircraft at a range of up to 15,700 feet (4,800 m) and at altitudes between 600 and 12,500 feet (180 and 3,800 m).
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by Lynxian » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:40 am

J.C. wrote:
Lynxian wrote:Did any of you really bother to check up on EU military statistics before commenting on the EU's inability to perform a military action? Just because they're unwilling and the EU is about as effective as a spongue against a flood does not mean the combined military strength is not enough.
I think it *is* enough. But I am still a little torqued to find out our NATO allies can field a max of three aircraft carriers, all of them marginal in one or more ways. Even if they were not needed against Libya they could be needed in another military action and it seems Europe is content to sit back and let the US spend all the money on defense.
Heh, that kind of thinking is how our politicians keep justifying cutbacks on defense spending. 'Oh, we're in NATO, if anything happens, we'll have our allies.', 'Oh, if Chavez tries to take the Antilles, America will send a carrier group, we'll be fine.' It's not much different in the rest of the smaller European countries. (As you'll note; the larger have their own carrier groups, with the exception of Germany who, for historical reasons, decided not to take one, I guess.) A lot of European countries have also justified cutbacks by saying 'oh, we're modernizing, the modern battlefield demands a highly mobile team, smaller, expeditionary'. I agree with you fully, but Europe needs another large conflict before anything will be changed in this regard.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by phil_in_cs » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:43 am

Lynxian wrote:I agree with you fully, but Europe needs another large conflict before anything will be changed in this regard.
You'd have thought the Balkan wars a decade ago proved this to them.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by Lynxian » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:17 am

phil_in_cs wrote:
Lynxian wrote:I agree with you fully, but Europe needs another large conflict before anything will be changed in this regard.
You'd have thought the Balkan wars a decade ago proved this to them.
In Europe's history, the Balkans was small. Plus, it needs to hit home for effect.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by TC » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:51 am

J.C. wrote:
Lynxian wrote:Did any of you really bother to check up on EU military statistics before commenting on the EU's inability to perform a military action? Just because they're unwilling and the EU is about as effective as a spongue against a flood does not mean the combined military strength is not enough.
I think it *is* enough. But I am still a little torqued to find out our NATO allies can field a max of three aircraft carriers, all of them marginal in one or more ways. Even if they were not needed against Libya they could be needed in another military action and it seems Europe is content to sit back and let the US spend all the money on defense.
I think that is definitely a topic for another thread, perhaps we could try to keep this one focused on the uprisings in North Africa and the Middle East. Also, just to raise it up, please don't think that the British people (the only ones I can speak for) are content about the cuts being made to our military nor that we expect the US to take up the slack.

On topic:
BBC wrote: MoD silent over report of SAS men captured in Libya

The Ministry of Defence says it will not comment on a claim in the Sunday Times that members of the SAS have been seized by rebel forces in Libya.

The paper claims a unit was involved in a secret mission to put British diplomats in touch with rebels trying to topple Colonel Muammar Gaddafi.

It says eight SAS men, in plain clothes but armed, were captured as they escorted the diplomat in eastern Libya.

In a statement, the MoD said: "We do not comment on the special forces."

The paper claims the SAS soldiers were taken to Benghazi, the rebel stronghold, where they are being interrogated.

The full statement from the MoD read: "We neither confirm nor deny the story and we do not comment on the special forces."

Meanwhile, Libyan state TV claimed troops loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi have made significant gains against rebel forces who have taken parts of the country in a two-week insurrection.

It said pro-Gaddafi forces had retaken the towns of Zawiya, Ras Lanuf, Misrata and even Tobruk - although those claims have not been independently verified.

The BBC's Jon Leyne in Benghazi says the claims go against all the evidence on the ground, unless there has been a sudden and dramatic swing overnight - of which there is no sign.

Regarding the SAS seizure claims, Geneva-based Human Rights Solidarity group said it was aware that a team of special forces had been seized by Libyan rebels but it did not know which country they were from.

Separately, a group of Dutch special forces was apparently captured by Col Gaddafi's forces in western Libya while trying to assist Dutch nationals to evacuate from the country.

Earlier, the MoD had confirmed Scottish troops were on standby to assist with humanitarian and evacuation operations in Libya.

The Black Watch, 3rd Battalion of the Royal Regiment of Scotland, is on a routine deployment notice of 24 hours at an RAF base in Wiltshire.

But they have not been earmarked for a combat role.
Reuters wrote: Heavy machinegun fire rocks Libyan capital Tripoli

(Reuters) - Heavy automatic weapons fire erupted in the Libyan capital Tripoli Sunday, the first such outbreak in Muammar Gaddafi's main stronghold in a two-week-old insurrection against his 41-year-old rule.

Government spokesman Mussa Ibrahim denied any fighting was under way in Tripoli, saying the gunfire was staged to fete the army's recapture of several cities from rebel forces.

It was unclear who was doing the shooting, which started just before daybreak, or what had caused it. Machine gun volleys, some of them heavy calibre, reverberated around central Tripoli along with ambulance sirens, pro-Gaddafi chants, and a cacophony of car horns as vehicles sped through the vicinity...(continued at link)
Next on the list?:
BBC wrote: Yemen: Foreign Office travel advice tightened

The Foreign Office is warning Britons against all travel to the Middle Eastern state of Yemen.

Officials say the advice has been reviewed and reissued because of increasing violence in the country.

UK nationals already in Yemen without a pressing need to stay are advised to leave using commercial travel services.

There have been protests against the government in several cities, and there are reports of clashes between police and demonstrators.

The Foreign Office says there are reports of violence being used to disperse crowds, and of a number of deaths.

Further protests are expected, say officials, and violence is likely...(continued at link)
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by Laconic 24 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:14 am

I guess this goes to show that the western nations shouldn't be getting involved here; so far, all we have to show for our troubles are 11 hostages, being held by both parties.

Although, I'm kind of suspicious of the SAS story. Makes me wonder if the capture was staged, to give the opposition some much needed anti-western "street cred."

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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by TC » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:22 am

Laconic 24 wrote: Although, I'm kind of suspicious of the SAS story. Makes me wonder if the capture was staged, to give the opposition some much needed anti-western "street cred."
I disagree. If that was the case, it is likely that the MoD would have flatly denied it. More likely, IMHO, is that the possibly captured SAS men are just one of several teams operating in the country at the moment.

In this instance, it seems that they were detected while trying to extract the junior diplomat and allowed themselves to be brought in by the rebels rather than resist and quite likely kill them. This would spark a much larger resentment and future diplomatic crisis between a new Libyan government and the UK should the rebellion succeed, leading me to believe that they have strict ROE not to use force against rebels.

Just my take on a situation that we know very little about indeed, which I might well have totally misjudged.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by Lynxian » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:24 am

BBC wrote: Separately, a group of Dutch special forces was apparently captured by Col Gaddafi's forces in western Libya while trying to assist Dutch nationals to evacuate from the country.
I would've expected the BBC to get it right; it weren't special forces; it were naval officers operating a Lynx helicopter. Unless, of course, even more of our people have gotten captured, but I doubt that. Politicians are already shitting their pants as is, I doubt they would dare to authorize further action. (Pansies.)
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by andygates » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:07 pm

And now, ladies and gentlemen, the act you've all been waiting for...
Saudi Arabia bans all marches as mass protest is planned for Friday

Extra troops are sent to north-east to quash any Shia protest as King Abdullah's regime gets jittery and oil prices soar in response to the region's continued unrest.

Saudi Arabia, the world's largest oil producer and the regional domino whose fall the West fears most, yesterday announced that it would ban all protests and marches. The move – the stick to match the carrot of benefits worth $37bn (£23bn) recently offered citizens in an effort to stave off the unrest that has overtaken nearby states – comes before a "day of rage" threatened for this Friday by opponents of the regime.

The Saudi Interior Ministry said the kingdom has banned all demonstrations because they contradict Islamic laws and social values. The ministry said some people have tried to get around the law to "achieve illegitimate aims" and it warned that security forces were authorised to act against violators. By way of emphasis, a statement broadcast on Saudi television said the authorities would "use all measures" to prevent any attempt to disrupt public order.

Already, as The Independent reported yesterday, the ruling House of Saud had drafted security forces, possibly numbering up to 10,000, into the north-eastern provinces. These areas, home to most of the country's Shia Muslim minority, have been the scenes of small demonstrations in recent weeks by protesters calling for the release of prisoners who they say are being held without trial. Saudi Shias also complain that they find it much harder to get senior government jobs and benefits than other citizens.
Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 33666.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by grand94jeep » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:26 pm

And there goes the gas prices... :evil:
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by TC » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:44 am

Very, very interesting. It strikes me as strange that HMS Cumberland was sent to get just eight men too, but maybe my tinfoil is just too tight...
BBC wrote: Hague personally authorised botched SAS Libya mission

The botched SAS mission to Libya was authorised by Foreign Secretary William Hague, the government has confirmed.

Officials said it was normal procedure for such operations to be approved by the foreign secretary and another team would be sent to Libya "in due course".

The mission was aimed at making contact with opponents of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi amid the ongoing unrest.

Six soldiers and two Foreign Office officials were freed two days after being detained in eastern Libya.

They left for Malta on board HMS Cumberland on Sunday night.

The foreign secretary is to make a statement about the mission later in the Commons.

Most of the group were dropped by helicopter into eastern Libya on Friday but were later seized by opposition fighters and found to be carrying weapons, ammunition, maps and passports from four different countries.

Prime Minister David Cameron's official spokesman said: "The operation was done in the normal way, that is, the foreign secretary taking the decision, but then discussing with the prime minister for days the necessity of getting a team in.

"It is our intention to send in a further team in due course to better understand the position on the ground."

In a statement on Sunday, Mr Hague said: "The team went to Libya to initiate contacts with the opposition.
"They experienced difficulties, which have now been satisfactorily resolved. They have now left Libya."

Mr Hague said: "We continue to press for Gaddafi to step down and we will work with the international community to support the legitimate ambitions of the Libyan people."

The British ambassador to Libya, Richard Northern, was called in to explain to opposition forces what the group was doing in eastern Libya.

He spoke to a spokesman for former justice minister, Mostafa Abdel Jalil, who is now a rebel leader, to explain the men's mission.

A telephone call between Mr Northern and Mr Jalil's spokesman was intercepted by the Gaddafi regime and excerpts were played on Libyan state television on Sunday.

In it, Mr Northern could be heard apologising for the "misunderstanding" and pleading for the men's release.
Oliver Miles, a former British ambassador to Libya, said he found the entire incident "bizarre".

He added: "The phone lines to the country still work so there's still quite a lot of information there if you're prepared to dredge for it.

"I'm glad that this particular episode seems to have ended in farce rather than tragedy."

He pointed out that Britain is not the only country to have experienced military embarrassment in Libya. The Dutch government is currently negotiating to free three of its marines who were captured along with their helicopter by pro-Gaddafi forces.

The troops had apparently been tasked with evacuating Dutch nationals from the port of Sirte.

What appeared to be video of the personnel has since been broadcast on Libyan state television.

'Not the right way'
Sir Emyr Jones Parry, former UK ambassador to the United Nations, said the government had been right to try to establish contact with the rebels, but had not gone about it in the right way.

"I think the mistake perhaps was to blur the distinction between what is a routine diplomatic activity, where your protection is declared to the host government or to the authorities in place, and something which is altogether more clandestine," he said.

Forces loyal to Col Muammar Gaddafi have fought bitter clashes with rebels in the central towns of Bin Jawad and Zawiya.

Some of Sunday's heaviest fighting was reported in Misrata, 200km (125 miles) east of Tripoli, where a local doctor told the BBC the situation became "very bad" after pro-Gaddafi forces with tanks and armoured cars went into the city centre and opened fire.

Libyan air force pilots have also been involved in the fighting, strafing and bombing rebel targets.

Defence Secretary Liam Fox says the idea of a "no-fly zone" would be discussed at a meeting of Nato defence ministers later this week.

Prime Minister David Cameron has also reiterated his call for Col Gaddafi to go and criticised Tony Blair's government for conducting "dodgy deals in the desert" in Libya back in 2004.

Mr Cameron told the Conservative Party spring conference: "When Margaret Thatcher was prime minister, this party stood by those who wanted to reject communism and embrace freedom.

"And today, this party stands by those reaching for that same freedom in the Arab world."
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by TacAir » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:14 am

Microview
With tanks, helicopters and fighter planes, troops loyal to Col. Moammar el-Gaddafi attacked rebel troops in the coastal town of Bin Jawwad on Sunday and pushed them east, stalling, for the moment, hopes by the anti-government fighters of a steady march toward Tripoli.

Government forces began a new air attack on rebels on Monday in the coastal town of Ras Lanuf, where they had withdrawn after Sunday’s assaults.

So, the 'rebels' lose another town

Macroview
It's an ill wind that blows no good...
Russia, which pumps more oil than Saudi Arabia, is reaping a windfall from the steep rise in global energy prices sparked by instability in oil regions of the Middle East and North Africa. Riding the high oil prices, the Russian ruble has risen faster against the dollar this year than any other currency, which is helpful because it will curb consumer inflation during an election year.

Some in the US FedGov are pushing for military intervention. AS if two shooting wars in the ME are not enough.

Gold, silver and gasoline are up, again. Oh dear.

And if things were not in the crapper for the non-combatants-
Flows of refugees from western Libya dropped dramatically over the weekend, possibly because government forces have set up road blocs and a holding camp to stop people leaving, international aid chiefs said on Monday.

They told a news conference that whereas 24,000 had been crossing daily a week ago into Tunisia, this had dropped to around 2,000 a day over the weekend.

And the beat goes on.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by MarkyBoy » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:02 pm

A step in the right direction.
Tunisia's interior ministry has announced it is dissolving the country's secret police service.

The agency had been widely accused of committing human rights abuses during the rule of President Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali, who was ousted on 14 January.

Interim Prime Minister Caid Essebsi has also announced a new government, which includes no members of the old regime.

The interim government is running Tunisia until elections scheduled to take place on 24 July.
Source : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12669461" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by Lynxian » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:52 pm

andygates wrote:And now, ladies and gentlemen, the act you've all been waiting for...
Saudi Arabia bans all marches as mass protest is planned for Friday

Extra troops are sent to north-east to quash any Shia protest as King Abdullah's regime gets jittery and oil prices soar in response to the region's continued unrest.

Saudi Arabia, the world's largest oil producer and the regional domino whose fall the West fears most, yesterday announced that it would ban all protests and marches. The move – the stick to match the carrot of benefits worth $37bn (£23bn) recently offered citizens in an effort to stave off the unrest that has overtaken nearby states – comes before a "day of rage" threatened for this Friday by opponents of the regime.

The Saudi Interior Ministry said the kingdom has banned all demonstrations because they contradict Islamic laws and social values. The ministry said some people have tried to get around the law to "achieve illegitimate aims" and it warned that security forces were authorised to act against violators. By way of emphasis, a statement broadcast on Saudi television said the authorities would "use all measures" to prevent any attempt to disrupt public order.

Already, as The Independent reported yesterday, the ruling House of Saud had drafted security forces, possibly numbering up to 10,000, into the north-eastern provinces. These areas, home to most of the country's Shia Muslim minority, have been the scenes of small demonstrations in recent weeks by protesters calling for the release of prisoners who they say are being held without trial. Saudi Shias also complain that they find it much harder to get senior government jobs and benefits than other citizens.
Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 33666.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The people who authorized the $60 billion arms deal recently must really be pissing their pants right now, hoping their arms trade won't be connected to a regime that might just be on the verge of going on a population killing spree.
Slow zombies, evidently...
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by TacAir » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:41 pm

Things HAVE just gotten stranger

There are reports Egyptian Unit 777 is in country and helping the 'rebels'.

"Any Egyptian involvement in Libya has to be handled very carefully. While the two countries fought a three day war in 1977, the real cause of tension is the fact that for thousands of years, most of Libya was considered part of Egypt. Given the fact that Libya has all that oil, and less than a tenth of the population of Egypt, well, then, you can figure out the rest. But for the moment, everyone is a revolutionary brother. At least for as long as the moment lasts, then history takes over."

There are scattered reports of SAS/SBS/US SF (Green Berets) and 'others' wandering around, doing recon and generally trying to figure just WTF is really going on.

Back to your regularly scheduled news....
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by Laconic 24 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:05 pm

andygates wrote:And now, ladies and gentlemen, the act you've all been waiting for...
Saudi Arabia bans all marches as mass protest is planned for Friday

Extra troops are sent to north-east to quash any Shia protest as King Abdullah's regime gets jittery and oil prices soar in response to the region's continued unrest.

Saudi Arabia, the world's largest oil producer and the regional domino whose fall the West fears most, yesterday announced that it would ban all protests and marches. The move – the stick to match the carrot of benefits worth $37bn (£23bn) recently offered citizens in an effort to stave off the unrest that has overtaken nearby states – comes before a "day of rage" threatened for this Friday by opponents of the regime.

The Saudi Interior Ministry said the kingdom has banned all demonstrations because they contradict Islamic laws and social values. The ministry said some people have tried to get around the law to "achieve illegitimate aims" and it warned that security forces were authorised to act against violators. By way of emphasis, a statement broadcast on Saudi television said the authorities would "use all measures" to prevent any attempt to disrupt public order.

Already, as The Independent reported yesterday, the ruling House of Saud had drafted security forces, possibly numbering up to 10,000, into the north-eastern provinces. These areas, home to most of the country's Shia Muslim minority, have been the scenes of small demonstrations in recent weeks by protesters calling for the release of prisoners who they say are being held without trial. Saudi Shias also complain that they find it much harder to get senior government jobs and benefits than other citizens.
Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 33666.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's going to get really interesting when King Abdullah, now 87, finally kicks the bucket. His successor is 83, and supposedly in bad health. After them, there's like 10+ guys in the running for the King's place, and they're all heavily into infrastructure, government, military, etc. A power struggle in Saudi Arabia is possible any day now, and once that happens, who knows what. Gas prices are sure to skyrocket again, and a breakdown of the government's ability to govern might mean that protests have a chance of succeeding.

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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by Crajon » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:38 pm

Maybe it's me but has anyone noticed that all the Arab states that are in civil unrest where at one time part of the Moorish empire in the 8th century ? Are we seeing a rebirth of the Moors or is it something else ? Just think if all those states form together into one very large state, where would that put us ?

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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by Greg Focker » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:46 pm

Crajon wrote:Maybe it's me but has anyone noticed that all the Arab states that are in civil unrest where at one time part of the Moorish empire in the 8th century ? Are we seeing a rebirth of the Moors or is it something else ? Just think if all those states form together into one very large state, where would that put us ?
At the sidelines of the world's biggest civil war?

Seriously, there are many reasons to doubt that would ever happen.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by Valarius » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:05 pm

Crajon wrote:Maybe it's me but has anyone noticed that all the Arab states that are in civil unrest where at one time part of the Moorish empire in the 8th century ? Are we seeing a rebirth of the Moors or is it something else ? Just think if all those states form together into one very large state, where would that put us ?
As the proud godparents of an Arabian democracy. Hopefully.

In a couple hundred years we'll be facing the Borg/Sith/Cylons/Jaffa/Buggers/cybernetic armies of the Goat With A Thousand Young. Earth needs to be united.

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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by Stercutus » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:45 pm

Maybe it's me but has anyone noticed that all the Arab states that are in civil unrest where at one time part of the Moorish empire in the 8th century ? Are we seeing a rebirth of the Moors or is it something else ? Just think if all those states form together into one very large state, where would that put us ?
Pan-Arabism has not been shown to be on the rise. This is something else. Education is a two way street. As your people get more access to communication they tend to start realizing how much their life sucks in relation to other people. Same thing happened in Germany in 1989. Years of secretly watching West German TV made the Easterners realize something was not quite right. In the ME the internet has proven to be the great educator. If you control all access to all media into and out of your country than your people dont know how poorly off they are (NK looking your way)...
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andygates
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by andygates » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:45 pm

Having said that, the interviews I've seen have people saying they're feeling hella Arab second to feeling hella $nation. So there could be an Arabist revival going on, which if it's cosmopolitan and decent to folks, would be pretty cool. But that's as nations, not an empire!

My guess would be that after the convulsions are all done - which will be a few years - the Arab League will be heavily reformed or replaced, and big cosmopolitan democracies will take a major role.

Yeah, I'm being an optimist. It's mideast change without the traditional winless mess. I wonder how much the utter stagnation of the peace process had to do with it, adding another straw of frustration to the camel's back?
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by MarkyBoy » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:20 pm

This has just been released as the crew concerned left Libya.
Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi's security forces detained and beat up a BBC news team who were trying to reach the strife-torn western city of Zawiya.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12695077" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Proof the regime gives jack for international opinion.

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OttawaXJ
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Post by OttawaXJ » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:14 am

This all is pretty simple to me.

Provide the rebels with aid and drone surveillance and they'll be happy and nobody will be able to say you're going in for the oil.

Anything more than that, you'll be YET AGAIN vilified. I don't really buy into all the conspiracy theories about the US going into countries for oil or to create a massive empire or w/e else there is.

However, every time you guys do the right thing and go into a country to help them(arab or muslim countries anyway) you get accused of building an empire and imposing your views on the world.

So far I'm extremely impressed with the restraint the US has shown on these crisis' It looks like your government is starting to take notice that every time you try to help people you're shooting yourself in the foot and just giving these radicals something to point to and spin.

Send aid, provide intel to the rebels and that should be it. If you want anything blown up or tactical aid, Canada's JTF2 team and several teams of CSOR have been sent to the region and should arrive in the next day or two that the US could call upon. that way you can say "wasnt us" lol

The ideal situation would be Egypt. They did everything themselves and are now creating their own democracy.
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