Active Domestic terror cell arrested

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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by Dave_M » Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:55 pm

GunnBorn wrote:Lol some of your points of view are so laughable, you cant see the forest for the trees!
Somehow I think you got that a little backwards. You see, those of us that support and defend the constitution understand that once you start suspending rights for certain groups of people, it can easily happen to the next. It's a very slippery slope. You are seeing the trees and not thinking of the long-term consequences of actions taken.

I didn't see any real concise evidence in the article--I'm not saying it doesn't exist but the facts don't add up. Having cash, weapons, and training does not mean you should be arrested. I'm not saying don't watch the guy.

"Hide behind the Constitution" :lol:
You must have missed that day in high school civics class.

On this statement:
Then again if it was up to you this guy would be running free probably on his way to Afghanistan with his comrades to kill United States Marines.
Since you are making this so black & white, yes. If he is indeed an active jihadi, I would much rather have him running around Afghanistan trying to kill Marines than in the SE United States killing Americans.
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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by airballrad » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:43 pm

dogbane wrote:
GunnBorn wrote:Edit - Dogbane, Im enlisting into the United States military so I dont have to worry about it.
You might want to read your oath to defend the Constitution before you commit to it.
^^^ Yeah, what he said.

Look, dude, I am glad you are all gung-ho for going into the service and going after bad guys. But make sure you have your eyes open going in. It sounds like your concepts of the fundamentals are lacking.

There are bad guys out there. Maybe this guy is one of them. But unless and until he is investigated and prosecuted according to the law of the land, he is innocent. If the government tomorrow decides it doesn't like people with blue hats, and you happened to be wearing a blue hat when they kick in your door, wouldn't you want them to be obligated to follow all the rules? Do things by the book? Or should they just follow the advice of some guy on the 'net who says "Personally I hope they make an example of this douche, throw the book at him, waterboard his ass and send him to an island prison camp."

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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by TheGunslinger » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:06 pm

Americans, by and large are good people. I enjoy their company and there are plenty of things that I point to and say 'see that? That's an American idea that has influenced the world and made it a better place.'

Whilst it has often been in vogue to slam the US in the little while for various reasons, I'm mature enough (as are most people) to know the difference between a government and its people.

So, when I read about things such as people being denied due process, being denied rights as an American citizen it disappoints me. But, at least I can console myself with the idea that the people don't equal the government and this sort of thing isn't endemic or systematic.

But then I actually meet an American who says stuff like 'hey, fuck it - I'm going to hide behind my patriotism and use it as an excuse for viciousness against another person'. Not only another person, but a fellow American. Someone with exactly the same rights and responsibilities as you.

Do us a favour, Gunnborn - don't enlist. Don't swear to defend the Constitution. It's clearly something that you have a limited understanding of and a limited desire to extend it's protection to other people.

Dogbane is right - like many other people on this forum, some of the things being discussed here mean a hell of a lot to me. When I see a bastardised jingoism that takes the place of civic responsibility it really riles me up.

Or, to summarise it another way - If you swore an Oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies, then decided it was OK to torture, detain or otherwise kill American citizens without due process, the authorization of the state or anything else other than 'he wasn't acting like an 'murican' then I reckon you should probably list your self under 'domestic enemy'.
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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by GunnBorn » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:48 pm

DavePAL84 wrote:
GunnBorn wrote:Lol some of your points of view are so laughable, you cant see the forest for the trees!
Somehow I think you got that a little backwards. You see, those of us that support and defend the constitution understand that once you start suspending rights for certain groups of people, it can easily happen to the next. It's a very slippery slope. You are seeing the trees and not thinking of the long-term consequences of actions taken.

I didn't see any real concise evidence in the article--I'm not saying it doesn't exist but the facts don't add up. Having cash, weapons, and training does not mean you should be arrested. I'm not saying don't watch the guy.

"Hide behind the Constitution" :lol:
You must have missed that day in high school civics class.

On this statement:
Then again if it was up to you this guy would be running free probably on his way to Afghanistan with his comrades to kill United States Marines.
Since you are making this so black & white, yes. If he is indeed an active jihadi, I would much rather have him running around Afghanistan trying to kill Marines than in the SE United States killing Americans.

aaaaaaaandddddd quoted.

Hope your proud of your words.

You want to attack me, go ahead. But there is NO FUCKING EXCUSE to say some bullshit like that. NONE. I dont care if your being sarcastic, smart ass, whatever. There is no room for this shit.

There has been no misconduct on the part of law enforcement in this case. I dont see where you guys are getting that from. I defend the constitution. If you are a part of an islamic militant group and have fought for them, I dont care what papers you have or what your passport says. Fundamentally, you are not an American.

What makes an American? Legally, yeah your paperwork. Belonging to extremist muslim groups and funding them and training in their camps is not something an American does. As far as Im concerned he gave up his rights a long time ago.

And LOL @ crocodile dundee over here...your calling me a domestic enemy? Funny how you try to flip it on me with your ridiculous logic. Yeah because I dont want innocent people to die because some islamo-nutbag that makes me the enemy. LOL

You wanna cry harder go ahead. The law of the land has spoken. Your insolent cries will go unheard. This guy and his haji comrades are going down and I couldn't be happier. :mrgreen:

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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by dogbane » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:55 pm

GunnBorn wrote:aaaaaaaandddddd quoted.

Hope your proud of your words.

You want to attack me, go ahead. But there is NO FUCKING EXCUSE to say some bullshit like that.
Dave is a Marine and he's been in the sandbox, and he's a highly respected military member of this forum. When you've been there and done that, you can start to think about lecturing people. You need to read more and post less, starting now.
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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by vyadmirer » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:56 pm

dogbane wrote:
vyadmirer wrote:
TheGunslinger wrote:Guess there are principles that mean more to me, than you.
If you are willing to die for due process then you are a better person than me. :lol:
I think that's what everyone who signs up for military service in the United States, and I assume in Australia, too, is willing to do. Due process is a fundamental Constitutional principle. Service members are sworn to defend the Constitution, even if it means putting their lives on the line. If I'm not mistaken, TheGunslinger served in the Australian Army.
Thats a good point, but not it's not quite what i'm saying. Like I said earlier, its hard to come up with a good example without it turning into a flamefest. But point well taken, I guess I hadn't thought of that.
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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by Doctor Jest » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:13 pm

Wow. Where to begin?

GunnBorn, please check your PMs.
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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by FanaticalModerate » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:52 pm

Not sure if a re-rail is possible or even useful, but I thought I'd do some shallow searches for updates on this. Checked Google News and several of the English-language papers in Pakistan.
Not much out there that's recent! I'm going to speculate that the absence of news is in itself noteworthy.

Here's an article from the Guardian which is a little too exuberant, but at least it's recent:
"American Jihad or FBI Blunder?"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/se ... e-mohammad" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note that the article itself really doesn't discuss any blundering ...suggesting the level of bluster that froths to the surface of the media in this kind of case.

From a civil liberties point of view, I'll suspect two things:
- That the core of the prosecution's case lies in Pakistan, not in North Carolina (even if the public attention is the reverse of that). Pakistan is an unusual place and some pretty strange stuff happens there.
- That with something like this (with multiple agencies and jurisdictions involved) a federal prosecutor was involved at an early stage. One of that individual's main tasks was to make sure that the investigation was conducted properly, with no LEO or government misbehavior - since anything improper could lead to crucial evidence being tossed out in court (see: "Fruit of the Poisoned Tree.")
Prosecutors aren't perfect, and governments aren't necessarily honest - but there is a judicial system in which things will come out in the wash, and we can at least expect that self-preservation will keep many investigations on the constitutional side of the line.
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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by dogbane » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:43 pm

Rerail is possible and necessary. This is a case worth following and I want to keep this thread alive. I will continue to update it from the NC end. I'll try to track down some South Asian news sources. You bring up a good point about the Pakistan connection. Imagine if these guys were extradited to Pakistan to stand trial. Not likely, but imagine. Also a good point about the federal prosecutor. I trust the prosecutor to be more thoughtful and deliberative than competing agencies and bureaus.

I look forward to more disclosure of facts from the government about the case. What they have revealed so far has seemed circumstantial to me. That doesn't mean bogus--plenty of people have been convicted on circumstantial evidence. But it all seems a little fuzzy right now.
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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by dogbane » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:50 pm

I was just refreshing my memory on the Pakistan charges. He was convicted of bank robbery in Pakistan and was sentenced to lose a hand and a foot. His conviction was overturned--not dsure of the reason--and he returned to the U.S.

Also, much of the evidence for the new allegations was found under FISA. so I'm guessing they've got some wiretap tapes to play to the jury.
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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by Citizen Simon » Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:41 pm

I can come troll this thread and start some pretty ignorant rhetoric if there isn't enough already. Just let me know. :wink:
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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by Doctor Jest » Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:03 pm

We're good, but thanks for asking. :D
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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by GunnBorn » Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:54 pm

I feel ive made some wrongful comments in this thread and put my foot in my mouth a few times. I still stand by my original opinion that this man and his cronies were rightfully arrested.

However I feel like I was being attacked by some of you which further spurred my resolve to be as incendiary as I could.

That is all.

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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by Citizen Simon » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:53 pm

GunnBorn wrote:I feel ive made some wrongful comments in this thread and put my foot in my mouth a few times. I still stand by my original opinion that this man and his cronies were rightfully arrested.

However I feel like I was being attacked by some of you which further spurred my resolve to be as incendiary as I could.

That is all.
Just be glad that you supporting and praising illegal activities didnt earn you a warning from the moderators.
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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by Grant » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:14 am

My picture hosting croaked the day after this happened and I'm still trying to get it back, but I actually was going to do a comic, where Osama Bin Ladin gives his statement on the recent terror arrests:

"I *TOLD* you guys, I *TOLD* you...YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT FIGHT CLUB!!!!"
"Headshots...headshots...Do you know how to do anything else?!"

"Hey, you'd be surprised how many things that works on!"
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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by Shogun » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:50 pm

I feel ive made some wrongful comments in this thread and put my foot in my mouth a few times. I still stand by my original opinion that this man and his cronies were rightfully arrested.

However I feel like I was being attacked by some of you which further spurred my resolve to be as incendiary as I could.

That is al
I think that has happened to all of us... However, when you sign up to be a marine, army, navy and so on you kinda of get the idea that people are going to try to kill you when you are on the battlefield. That is part of the reason that the US armed forces are over in that part of the world.

If the government is going to arrest someone for something, then it had better be against the law and not just politically incorrect. If you have never been on the other side of Big Brother, you cannot understand the awesome machine that you are pitted against and how little hope of getting free of it that you really have.

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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by dogbane » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:46 am

Update:
Prosecutors: N.C. terror suspects had U.S. targets
Prosecutors allege two N.C. men had plans to attack the U.S. Marine base in Quantico, Va.

By Sarah Ovaska
sarah.ovaska@newsobserver.com
Posted: Friday, Sep. 25, 2009

RALEIGH Federal prosecutors say two men indicted as suspects in a Raleigh-area terrorist ring were making plans to attack and kill Marines at a military base in Quantico, Va.

Daniel Boyd, 39, the suspected ringleader of the group, and Hysen Sherifi, 24, a Kosovan immigrant who legally relocated to the Raleigh area, have been indicted on new charges of conspiring to murder U.S. military personnel at the U.S. Marine Corps Base Quantico, according to a news release issued Thursday by the U.S. Attorney's Office in Raleigh.

Thursday's indictment marks the first time federal prosecutors have accused the men of having specific targets within the United States.

The new indictment is in addition to federal indictments issued in July, charging the men with conspiring to provide support to terrorists and conspiring to murder, kidnap, maim and injure people abroad.

Calls seeking comment from lawyers representing Boyd and Sherifi were not immediately returned.

The news release from U.S. Attorney George Holding's office says Boyd conducted reconnaissance of the Marine base and got maps of the base "in order to plan an attack."

"These additional charges hammer home the grim reality that today's homegrown terrorists are not limiting their violent plans to locations overseas, but instead are willing to set their sights on American citizens and American targets, right here at home," Holding said.

Quantico, in addition to the estimated 16,000 people who live and work on the military base, is home to the FBI's research and training facilities.
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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by wanderingwaldo » Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:01 am

GunnBorn wrote: Hope your proud of your words.

You want to attack me, go ahead. But there is NO FUCKING EXCUSE to say some bullshit like that. NONE. I dont care if your being sarcastic, smart ass, whatever. There is no room for this shit.

There has been no misconduct on the part of law enforcement in this case. I dont see where you guys are getting that from. I defend the constitution. If you are a part of an islamic militant group and have fought for them, I dont care what papers you have or what your passport says. Fundamentally, you are not an American.

What makes an American? Legally, yeah your paperwork. Belonging to extremist muslim groups and funding them and training in their camps is not something an American does. As far as Im concerned he gave up his rights a long time ago.

And LOL @ crocodile dundee over here...your calling me a domestic enemy? Funny how you try to flip it on me with your ridiculous logic. Yeah because I dont want innocent people to die because some islamo-nutbag that makes me the enemy. LOL

You wanna cry harder go ahead. The law of the land has spoken. Your insolent cries will go unheard. This guy and his haji comrades are going down and I couldn't be happier. :mrgreen:
While there is a chance that this is a real terrorist suspect I would put it at 10% or less. Very few of the headlining terrorist suspects that you hear about being arrested in the news actually have anything stick. Most of the time it is because there is little or no evidence of a crime having planned to be committed or the one who did the planning/logistics was an FBI/Homeland Security agent who got some nutjobs riled up and supplied them with dummy munitions.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/conte ... RESTS.html

There is a similar situation in the trials associated with Guantanamo Bay. In those trials 75% of the cases have been dismissed and seven prosecutors have resigned.
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Seventh_Gua ... cal_issues

This is dispite the fact that interrogation of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, including the notorious technique of waterboarding, was based on a communist torture manual from the Korean War which resulted in the brainwashing and false confessions of our own airmen.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... z0S88EenVv

I seem to remember someone else who fought the communists in the 80's on behalf of the CIA: Osama Bin Laden - or Tim Osman as his handlers knew him. We didn't want him caught when we had the chance (several times.) George Bush Sr. was in a business meeting at the Ritz Carlton Hotel in Washington on the morning of September 11th with one of Osama bin Laden's brothers. Bush Jr. allowed his family to leave on the only commercial planes to fly immediately after Sept. 11th. Kissinger had to step down as the 9/11 commission head because he represents the Bin Laden Family at his firm. There is a point when coincidence starts to become evidence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_BS83BmTIQ
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/448867/9_ ... den_expos/

Then there was the 9/11 commission itself. The following is a small sample of the obstacles the investigation faced throughout the investigation. Obstruction and tampering from the highest levels undoubtedly hindered the investigation. Here are the issues:

* 9/11 Commission Memo states the executive branch sent “minders” to intimidate witnesses and report on their actions. (9/11 Commission Memo, Oct. 2003)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13279605/911- ... -Witnesses

* Whitehouse refuses to release 900 page congressional report describing how the attacks happened. (Miami Herald, May 2003)
http://www.truthout.org/article/white-h ... pt-11-info

* 9/11 Commission does not receive requested interrogation tapes of detainees. (NY Times, Dec. 2007)
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/08/washi ... 4ZPBvWemDg

* Interrogation tapes are destroyed (ABC News, Dec. 2007)
http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/DOJ/story? ... 426&page=1

* Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton, chair and vice chair wrote an Oped piece in the NY Times stating the committee was stonewalled by the CIA and the investigation was obstructed government official failed to fully inform a lawfully constituted body. (NY Times, Jan. 2008)
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/02/opini ... ef=opinion

* Commissioner Max Cleland stated his displeasure with the committee making deals in regards to the documents they could view. He also stated the Bush administration attempted to slow walk the commission into irrelevancy. (Salon, Nov. 2003)
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature ... .html?pn=1

* Committee member Tim Roemer stated "We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting," Roemer told CNN. "We were not sure of the intent, whether it was to deceive the commission or merely part of the fumbling bureaucracy." (CNN, Aug. 2006)
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/02/ ... index.html

Never mind the former FBI agent who is blowing the whistle on 9/11:
Sibel Edmonds dropped a bombshell when a caller asked a question about 9/11.The former FBI translator carefully replied, “I have information about things that our government has lied to us about. I know. For example, to say that since the fall of the Soviet Union we ceased all of our intimate relationship with Bin Laden and the Taliban - those things can be proven as lies, very easily, based on the information they classified in my case, because we did carry very intimate relationship with these people, and it involves Central Asia, all the way up to September 11.”
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/07/31/ ... until-911/

There is also scientific peer-reviewed evidence of highly advanced military-grade explosives in the buildings, which would have involved them being placed prior to Sept 11th:
http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/conte ... 7TOCPJ.SGM
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/ther ... idues.html

Nanothermite is not something you make in a cave in Afghanistan. More likely than not the origin of these explosives would be a lab in Maryland.

Here is one of the authors of that study: Niels Harrit Associate Professor at the Department of Chemistry at the University of Copenhagen:
http://russiatoday.com/Politics/2009-07 ... e_WTC.html

There are many more layers to these events than GunnBorn has acknowledged. I do not support terrorism in any way, neither foriegn terrorism or domestic terrorism. The simple fact is that I don't trust the rhetoric and I have ample evidence that I shouldn't. We have lost a lot of rights for a heap of trouble and if the basis for all of that is a lie it begs the question: What are we really doing? Where is this going? I think that these are questions that need to be asked more often.
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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by LowKey » Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:19 am

GunnBorn wrote:
Then again if it was up to you this guy would be running free probably on his way to Afghanistan with his comrades to kill United States Marines.
DavePAL84 wrote:Since you are making this so black & white, yes. If he is indeed an active jihadi, I would much rather have him running around Afghanistan trying to kill Marines than in the SE United States killing Americans.
I second (or whatever multiple it's reached) Dave's sentiment.
In fact, I'll extend it a bit.

If he's an active jihadi I'd much rather have him running around over here in the middle east shooting at me instead of back in the states targeting you guys. I may just be a lowly contractor these days, but I choose to accept the risks that come with the job(s) I've done here. John and Jane Doe back home haven't signed on for that crap.
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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by Istvan56 » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:57 am

I left this thread after the first day and boy has it strayed since then. Okay, from what I've gathered the evidence that may have led the Feds to Boyd, et al likely came from NSA monitoring of overseas telephone communications. The guy was likely red flagged some time ago over his connections to extremist groups in Pakistan, yeah, former CIA tools, but extremists nevertheless. So when his name came up in a phone call that got the ball rolling at home. BTW, that won't likely be released in court...the NSA operations are classfied and this is merely my speculation.

After the initial intelligence the FBI started looking the family closely. Yep, he was active in the more radical of our domestic Islamic community. He was teaching his family firearms training (which I do too but not with the aim of going to Israel or Quantico to shoot folks :roll: ). The Quantico recce only came out after they raided his place and busted him. What started out as basically holding charges have been upped to a more serious level.

I don't like the tactics used to convice the wife to leave the house, as I earlier pointed out they were dastardly and cruel. Other than that point I think they haven't messed up the case beyond salvaging. We'll see in court. Remember that this case is not at Gitmo or under any special tribunal, it is a straight forward federal court case with all the constitutional protections and rights to defense, discovery and appeal there. The federal prosecutors have not shown all of their hand and I think we need to wait and see what comes out at trial.

Oh, just a couple more points. This wasn't a case of entrapment. No CI's were used that I've heard of. Second, please don't bring up any 9/11 Truther arguments here. That is a needless derailment of this already damaged thread and is trolling IMHO.

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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by Istvan56 » Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:43 am

Now I'm not one to read or quote the Huffington Post much but I have an article by Dr. Brian Levin, an associate in monitoring domestic terrorism, that he forwarded to me from there. It is interesting to note the charges the Feds are using to stop domestic terrorists, particularly Islamic terrorists, in the US. This deals more with the other, more recent cases than the Boyd family case but also applies to them in use of lower charges first to establish PC to investigate further.

In New Terrorism Case, A Tested Compromise Strategy Emerges
Brian Levin, J.D.
Director, Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism, California State University
Posted: September 20, 2009 01:01 PM

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-lev ... 92689.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-lev ... 92689.html

The arrest of three Afghan men this weekend in Colorado and New York on federal charges related to a possible nascent terrorist plot in the United States involving IEDs casts a spotlight on an often ignored, but critical part of the government’s post 9/11 prosecution strategy. All three men were arrested under a longstanding law that makes it a federal felony to lie to an investigator. Prior to 9/11 the statute was as likely to be ignored, as it was to be employed. However, in the post 9/11 era where interdiction before an attack is now the primary objective for authorities, 18 USC §1001 has emerged as the most common charge levied in terrorism related cases.

The use of this statute may have very well prevented a variety of mass terrorist attacks as it is a quick and effective way of getting violent prone extremists off the streets early--before an attack takes place. These dangerous folks often crack and lie under the gauntlet of professional interrogators aided by intensive search techniques. Civil libertarians argue, however, that this strategy often ensnares unsophisticated blowhards whose threat potential is minimal or overblown. The fact that the strategy is purposefully preventative in nature means that in many cases we’ll never be able to conclusive ly prove how bad the threat actually was.

The current case has some extremely disturbing details, but also has much that needs to be illuminated. Three men are in custody; Najibullah Zazi, 24, his father Mohammed, 53, arrested in Colorado and Ahmad Wais Afzali, 37, an imam from Queens, arrested in New York. They were charged under 18 USC §1001 (a) 2. The specific allegation states that they “knowingly and willfully” made a “materially false, fictitious and fraudulent statement and representation in a matter involving international and domestic terrorism…”

The charges come after a wide-ranging frenetic investigation became public last week on the anniversary of 9/11. The investigation involved phone intercepts, apartment, car, and computer searches as well as lengthy interrogations. The=2 0apparent main defendant Najibullah Zazi, an airport shuttle bus driver, underwent at least 28 hours of interrogation before his attorneys cancelled further FBI questioning on Saturday, hours before his nighttime arrest. Zazi’s public denials also became more murky over the course of the week.

Central to his arrest are Najibullah’s trip to the Northwest Frontier region of Pakistan and a handwritten note found on a laptop seized from a vehicle during a search in New York. The Pakistan territory is described in the affidavit, quoting the Center for Strategic and International Studies as:

“ground zero in the U.S. Jihadist war…[and] home to many Al Qaeda operatives, especially the numerous foreigners from the Arab world, Central Asia Muslim areas of the Far East, and even Europe who flock to this war zone for training, indoctrination, and sometimes respite from repression at home.”

A nine page handwritten note, found on his computer “discussed jihad” and contained “formulations and instructions regarding th e manufacture and handling of initiating explosives, main explosives charges, explosive, detonators and components of a fuzing system.” The affidavit points to the younger Mr. Zazi potentially lying about his awareness and authorship of the note, which authorities contend resembles his handwriting.

However, no explosives or other “smoking gun” pointing to an imminent operation were discovered. David Kris, who heads the Department of Justice’s national security section stated, “The arrests carried out tonight are part of an ongoing and fast-paced investigation. It is important to note that we have no specific information regarding the timing, location or target of any planned attack.”

Authorities point out the investigation is ongoing and that it is possible that additional arrests or charges could result. The court d ocuments also indicate that there is probably other evidence the government has that it has not yet divulged. One potential additional charge is providing material support to a terrorist organization.

Research from earlier in the decade shows that the government’s strategy in this case of using 18 USC §1001 is a common one. A report by the Washington Post in 2005 revealed that the most common type of charges in post 9/11 terrorism related cases upon which defendants pled guilty or were convicted involved lying to investigators, followed by terrorism and national security offenses, using illegal travel documents, and conspiracy.

A 2006 study of Justice Department records by a Syracuse University affiliated research center found that of the 1,391 cases of international terrorism referred by federal law enforcement to prosecutors after 9/11 , 817 were declined for prosecution for reasons including a subsequent request by investigators (117), evidence issues (205), no chargeable federal offense (86), and other reasons (273). Another 239 cases were pending referrals, while 335 more resulted in prosecutions. Of the 335 cases sent to federal district court for criminal trials, 66 resulted in dismissal or not guilty verdicts, 56 were still pending, and 213 resulted in convictions. The study found the overwhelming majority of sentences were quite short with 90 resulting in no prison time and 91 more resulting in less than one year’s incarceration. Only 14 resulted in sentences of five years or more. The study also revealed that, in most recent years, terrorism related prosecutions dropped sharply, along with the length of sentences. For cases commenced in the two years following 9/11, the median sentence was only 28 days, compared to a median sentence of 41 months for those cases commenced in the two years prior to 9/11

United States Federal Terrorism Related Trials By Type of Offense Charged Through 2005
Crime No. Convictions
Lying to Investigators 75
Terrorism/National Security 46
Travel Documents 30
Conspiracy 29
Racketeering 27
Immigration 22

Note: Some individuals were convicted of more than one type of crime. Source: Eggen, D., Washington Post, June 12, 2005
One thing is certain, authorities have powerful tools to get people off the streets in the array of statutes that they have at their disposal. They also have an extraordinarily difficult job of balancing their obligations. On the one hand they must uphold civil liberties, while also protecting us from the very real threat of a small, but determined number of anonymous extremists bent on doing the nation harm through a mass terror attack.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Since Dr. Levin's article there has been forensic evidence of bomb making in the Najibullah Zazi case. Traces of the explosive formula used by the London underground and bus bombers was found in the exhaust hood over Zazi's stove. So he was cooking a trial batch there at least. The other elements of the "smoking gun" were backpacks purchased and a truck rental inquiry as well as the purchase of chemicals such as bulk hydrogen peroxide at a beauty salon supply shop. So as the investigation continues in each of these cases the evidence grows stronger that these were valid threats of jihad in the US. And again, these are folks who are getting afforded all the legal defense that anyone can get here in the US (short of OJ Simpson, wait, he's now in prison for the rest of his life :mrgreen: ).

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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by dogbane » Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:26 am

Istvan56 wrote:I left this thread after the first day and boy has it strayed since then. ...please don't bring up any 9/11 Truther arguments here. That is a needless derailment of this already damaged thread and is trolling IMHO.
Thanks, Istvan. I had missed some of the comments on this thread, and you sum it up right there. This thread is about the NC domestic terrorism case, NOT September 11, Guantanamo, or other tangential or politically controversial issues.

Good analyses, Istvan, and thanks again for making the point I just quoted, particularly the bold italics.
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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by GunnBorn » Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:43 pm

Guess I was right. 8)

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Re: Active Domestic terror cell arrested

Post by TheGunslinger » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:03 pm

No, you weren't.

They were found guilty of a crime and charged.

Following the trail, they managed to apprehend these wannabes.

You were arguing for people to be thrown in jail regardless and that no dirty trick too much to stop that happening.

This is proof positive that what you were arguing for is unnecessary and wrong.

You couldn't be more wrong.
Bureaucracy destroys initiative. There is little that bureaucrats hate more than innovation, especially innovation that produces better results than the old routines. Improvements always make those at the top of the heap look inept. Who enjoys appearing inept? ~A Guide to Trial and Error in Government, Bene Gesserit Archive

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