Sharia in Britain?!

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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by Coyotes Brother » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:45 am

I'm curious about the spread of Islam in western nations. Based on what little info is available to me via a quick lunchtime Google search, it seems like European countries with atheist populations at or above 50% (i.e. England, France, Denmark) have many "cultural clashes" with their Muslims, while those with much lower atheist populations seem not to (i.e. Italy, Spain, Greece). Is it because Islam has had a longer presence in countries (i.e. Spain) and things have had time to settle down; is it because the American media doesn't report those stories (therefore I don't see them)? Just wondering if there is a correlation, and what that might be. Thanks.
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by Ad'lan » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:59 am

50% Atheist? we should be so lucky, it's more like 30%, top's. Most people don't go to church, or act very Christian, but they do maintain their Identity as Christian's.


Andy, Kaygee, very true. And if you wanna see the problem with 'go back to where you came from' look at Israel, or Liberia.
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by NORTHERN RAIDER » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:06 pm

andygates wrote:
KayGee wrote:
OhioMe wrote:
KayGee wrote: On the other, two consenting adults are allowed to use their own religious laws as others have done for centuries.
Then moved back there if their laws are so awesome. They come to a new country, they must abide by the new laws, or go elsewhere.
Move back where?
Exactly.

We've got lots of second- and third-generation British Muslims. They're just fine. They're Brits. They've got Yorkshire accents are are more likely to say "chuffin' ell!" than "insh'allah". And that's before we get onto non-Arab-origin converts, lots of black folks of caribbean ancestry are converting. They're definitely Brits too.

"Go back" assumes way too much - that they're recent first-gen immigrants with no integration, for example. That's either plain wrong or plain racist.
I dont want to see this thread get out of hand, but I think it would possibly be more apt to suggest that if you wish to live under shariah law and practise as a fundamentalist musilm you would be better offf moving to somewhere like saudi arabia. the UK like the US is a predominantly
Christian north european culture and if people want to live in either place they should adopt our culture and value system.
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by andygates » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:13 pm

Coyote: I think there's a couple of factors playing. First there's novelty. People hate change, so if they feel that a bunch of new folks have moved in, that can cause tension - and the new guys can be rubbish integrators too. That is generally a generational thing, once everyone's used to "those guys" then that tension goes away.

The other angle's that a religious community that feels under pressure often responds by getting more obviously religious. With the press full of trouble-in-the-mideast stories, and these stories always characterised by the term "muslim" (rarely, say, "afghan"), they'll feel like everybody thinks they're the bad guys, and that pressure leads to a reinforcing of the visible layers of what they do - the Friday prayers, headscarfs, all that stuff.

France has lots of poor kids who are already hated for being kids and for being poor. Add anti-islamic feeling to that and they're really set up to think that everyone thinks they're the villains. Hard to rise above that.

The UK was in with the USA and is still in Iraq and Afghanistan, one of our Princes served there. No real surprise at animosity there. (Not saying that it's justified or reasonable at all, just that it's bloody obvious)

Contrast Spain, buckets of history, old islamic architecture (a new mosque opening round here still makes the news). Islam is part of the fabric there, just as catholicism is.

But after all that, the media are still only interested in reporting the drama, and there's a thread of the media who run this "the west vs islam" story arc. So you're definitely seeing skewed reporting, from the coverage I get here of CNN, ABC and Fox. You're not likely to see "Manchester Mosque Holds Bake Sale - More at Eleven!" ;)


Raider -- I think I have to agree, if you want to live completely under Sharia, move to a Sharia country or get involved in local politics to Sharia-ize your hometown. This is a democracy, after all -- I want it greened up, my co-worker wants the taxes removed on cakes because he's a fat bastard. We can all lobby and vote. But if you really want free guns and open space, move to the USA, if you want sharia, move to the mideast...

Mind you, they can practise all they like, fundy or no. I've shared space with other fundies and they're hilarious. I won't stand for laws or pressure restricting what people can believe, just what they can do.
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by crypto » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:49 pm

NORTHERN RAIDER wrote:the UK like the US is a predominantly
Christian north european culture and if people want to live in either place they should adopt our culture and value system.
Telling someone to worship Jesus or GTFO is a good way to get punched in the mouth around where I live.
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by Ad'lan » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:22 pm

As it fucking should be.

I hate the way Western Democracies alway's have the label Christian attatched. Yes, they are predmoniantly Christian, but it isn't a useful definition, as even the countries with an established curch do not have many, or any law's dictated by the bible (old or new testament)
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by OhioMe » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:42 pm

Should 'sharia courts' allow grown men to marry nine year old girls? Their prophet did. Isn't that considered child rape in the rest of the UK? Should practicing Muslims be excused from that law?
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by OhioMe » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:46 pm

How about Satanists get their own courts too? That way if they 'do as they will' they can be found innocent as per the tenets of their faith?

Should Southern Baptists be allow to strike their wives?

One nation, ONE law.
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DavePAL84 wrote:If you guys bring an old t-shirt or two each it would also be beneficial (maybe something you don't mind being perforated with bullets and then thrown out?)
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by bonanacrom » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:55 pm

I have the answer, if everyone just makes me the supreme leader of the world I'll fix all these problems. But first send out your virgins.
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by NORTHERN RAIDER » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:05 pm

crypto wrote:
NORTHERN RAIDER wrote:the UK like the US is a predominantly
Christian north european culture and if people want to live in either place they should adopt our culture and value system.
Telling someone to worship Jesus or GTFO is a good way to get punched in the mouth around where I live.
Agreed, telling anyone they have to worship anything is utterly wrong, but that does not detract from the simple fact that the UK, Most of Europe and scandinavias culture evolved from Pagan / christian cultural influence for over 1500 years, its completing ingrained into our psyche and culture. Islam has only been around since the 7th Century but is still ancient. However part of the problem is that for many true muslims the only way they can develop a true fully functioning islamic society is according to the Quoran to get rid of all other religous and political systems, icluding democracy. In my ideal world religion simply is not of any real value.
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by andygates » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:58 pm

OhioMe wrote:Should 'sharia courts' allow grown men to marry nine year old girls? Their prophet did. Isn't that considered child rape in the rest of the UK? Should practicing Muslims be excused from that law?
Dude, we already covered this. Calm down.
NORTHERN RAIDER wrote:However part of the problem is that for many true muslims the only way they can develop a true fully functioning islamic society is according to the Quoran to get rid of all other religous and political systems, icluding democracy. In my ideal world religion simply is not of any real value.
We all have to make compromises ;) But don't forget, evangelical Christians are told to put the Word out, too - it's there in the Bible, after all. And democracy is challenged by *any* belief system that has an ultimate authority that's not the Will of the People - so that's every single flavour of religion, and plenty of secular setups too.

There are plenty of examples of islam coexisting with other cultures. The current intolerant lot are the Wahabi (IIRC) and they do seem to be a right pain in the arse, but they're not the only ones or the majority. Assuming that every muslim is a wahabi muslim is like assuming every Christian is a Catholic. It's wrong, *dangerously* wrong if you try to predict their actions and motives because of it.
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by KayGee » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:23 pm

Right, let me spell it out for you people


If you stone your wife to death for not going outside dressed as a ninja, you'll have your door kicked in and you'll be thrown in prison for a very long time.
If you saw off your daughters head with a penknife for wanting to marry a non-Muslim, you'll have your door kicked in and you'll be thrown in prison for a very long time.
If you marry a nine year old, you'll have your door kicked in and you'll be thrown in the nonces wing for a very very long time.
If you lure some teens into the woods, stab them 666 times, burn them and then eat them, you'll have your door kicked in and spend the rest of your life counting the stitches in the padding of your cell.
If you decide your wife gets the NFC plates and you get the AFC plates and your Imam agrees to be a witness to the agreement, nobody will care.
If your father dies and leaves the house to you, the car to your brother and the family business to be run by both of you and you disagree with each other and ask your Imam to be an independent adjudicator, nobody will care.
Last edited by KayGee on Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by Cyborg » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:28 pm

KayGee wrote:If you stone your wife to death for not going outside dressed as a ninja, you'll have your door kicked in and you'll be thrown in prison for a very long time.
By me, dressed as a ninja...
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by OhioMe » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:57 pm

KayGee wrote:Right, let me spell it out for you people
...
If you decide your wife gets the NFC plates and you get the AFC plates and your Imam agrees to be a witness to the agreement, nobody will care.
If your father dies and leaves the house to you, the car to your brother and the family business to be run by both of you and you disagree with each other and ask your Imam to be an independent adjudicator, nobody will care.
Then why do it in the first place, and why codify it into law? :roll:
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DavePAL84 wrote:If you guys bring an old t-shirt or two each it would also be beneficial (maybe something you don't mind being perforated with bullets and then thrown out?)
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by OhioMe » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:57 pm

BoneDoc wrote:
KayGee wrote:If you stone your wife to death for not going outside dressed as a ninja, you'll have your door kicked in and you'll be thrown in prison for a very long time.
By me, dressed as a ninja...
Outstanding, BoneDoc. Well played! :lol:
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DavePAL84 wrote:If you guys bring an old t-shirt or two each it would also be beneficial (maybe something you don't mind being perforated with bullets and then thrown out?)
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by suntzu » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:08 pm

Sharia courts in Texas, yes, Texas.

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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by Ovationman » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:45 pm

I mean what? TX land of bibles and anti-gay laws?

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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by Valarius » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:17 am

Texas. Well, damn. Guess that's the reason for God's hurricanes then.
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by NORTHERN RAIDER » Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:36 am

Ovationman wrote:I mean what? TX land of bibles and anti-gay laws?

I had to laugh about a TV documentary the other week, they were debating the very harsh punishments they enforce on criminals in Texas, the two gents speaking on behalf of the anti gay lays and capital punishment said
" We have more vicous and dangerous criminals in TX than in most other states thats why we have the death penalty and use it"

So the obviously much more liberal guy from Europe said

" OK if you have the death penalty because TX is full of killers and violent criminals, I assume you have Anti Gay laws for similar reasons IE Texas is full of Queers " :lol: The two chaps from TX could not work out if they had been insulted or not :D I nearly choked to death on my coffee laughing.
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by 19kilo » Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:01 am

What are the anti gay laws in Texas??? Or is every one talking about the sodomy law? I thought it was struck down.
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by andygates » Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:16 am

OhioMe wrote:
KayGee wrote:Right, let me spell it out for you people
...
If you decide your wife gets the NFC plates and you get the AFC plates and your Imam agrees to be a witness to the agreement, nobody will care.
If your father dies and leaves the house to you, the car to your brother and the family business to be run by both of you and you disagree with each other and ask your Imam to be an independent adjudicator, nobody will care.
Then why do it in the first place, and why codify it into law? :roll:
What's codified is the "we agreed on this arbitrated settlement" part, and that's been that way for ages (and IIRC, there's always been an option to appeal, too - I remember when we presented our agreed split-of-assets to the divorce lawyers, we were both asked "Do you *really* agree to this or were you pressured into it?"). That opportunity for appeal is important because I could bully my wife into letting me have the car, whether I'm a muslim asshole or a christian asshole or just a hairy asshole.

The novel part of this is that the arbitration framework has an imam instead of anyone else.
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by gridley » Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:25 am

andygates wrote:There are plenty of examples of islam coexisting with other cultures. The current intolerant lot are the Wahabi (IIRC) and they do seem to be a right pain in the arse, but they're not the only ones or the majority. Assuming that every muslim is a wahabi muslim is like assuming every Christian is a Catholic. It's wrong, *dangerously* wrong if you try to predict their actions and motives because of it.
The problem with that is the difference in degree of the fanatics.

My mother is a Catholic fanatic. She won't vote for anyone who's pro-choice on abortion. She thinks all gays are going to hell. She thinks masturbation is a sin. But if she were an Islamic fanatic of the same degree she'd have long since strapped a bomb to her body and blown up a restaurant.

Does Christianity have a violent lunatic fringe? Sure it does. But its microscopic compared to the violent lunatic fringe of Islam.

If I assume a Christian isn't a fanatic and I'm wrong, that's almost certainly survivable.
If I assume a Muslim isn'ta fanatic and I'm wrong, I'm red mist mixed with explosive residue.

That doesn't mean we should arrest all Muslims. But I really believe if we were smart we'd watch them more closely than Christians. They get the same due process, but the TSA pays a little more attention to a young man who's praying to Allah when they walk through security than to an 80 year old caucasian female in a wheelchair who's fingering a rosary.
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by Czechnology » Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:47 am

NORTHERN RAIDER wrote:the anti gay lays
Does that involve homophobic potato chips, or shouting "I HATE IT WHEN MEN FUCK EACH OTHER" while screwing your girlfriend?
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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Post by llivne » Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:10 pm

i should start an atheist court, its a radical thought i know but bear with me, it will based on common (wait for it) sense, and i shell open a chapter of it in the UK and have them enforce the words of the "istoppedhavingimaginaryfriends" book because they apparently are willing to enforce every clown pretending to be a judge decision.
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