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Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:22 am
by Czechnology
crypto wrote:
Czechnology wrote:
crypto wrote:
JägerZ wrote:It's big enough, IMHO. I'm afraid that the British Govt has completely gone round the bend.
This is what drove you over the edge? You must have missed the whole pointy knives thing.
Yeah I was going to say, "How did this come as a surprise to you?"
People said the same thing when the Mayflower GTFO of the UK.
Yeah, well... The Mayflower was full of nutjobs. "Oh my, these dirty Catholic/COE heathens wear coloured clothing and celebrate Christmas! Let us away lest they taint our women with a desire to become attractive! To the boat!"

I'd have been happy to see them leave too.

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:24 am
by crypto
yes sir.

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:42 am
by gridley
andygates wrote:I did a little digging and in fact, sharia-based arbitration's been around as long as we've had Muslim communities, so this is even less of a story than it looks.

Those beth din arbitration arrangements, for example, have been ruling on contracts in a way that us goyim wouldn't grasp or agree, but all within the context of the law.

So, we have arbitration groups for various faiths, and none of them override the law of the land. We've had 'em for some time. That's the facts.

Anything more is political opinion and I think this thread is heading for a lock if it continues thus.
Hang on, the story wasn't that muslims have been getting arbitration under Sharia for a long time, the news was that NOW THE GOVERNMENT WILL ENFORCE THOSE RULINGS.

If John Doe and Jane Doe have an issue and take it to Jack Smith for arbitration based on some random set of rules, that's one thing. It is quite another when the national legal system will back Jack Smith's ruling even though he didn't make his ruling based on that legal system.

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:51 am
by Ad'lan
Looking into it, the court's do not Have to agree to the ruling's of the other (Sharia, beth Din, Eclesiastical) court's. They usually do, or it is agreed by both side's before said UK Court to obey the (insert loonie of your choice) court.

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:24 pm
by gridley
Ad'lan wrote:Looking into it, the court's do not Have to agree to the ruling's of the other (Sharia, beth Din, Eclesiastical) court's. They usually do, or it is agreed by both side's before said UK Court to obey the (insert loonie of your choice) court.
True, any more than an appelate court in the US has to uphold the ruling of a lower court.

This, by itself, is not the end of freedom in the UK. It is, IMO, a bad sign however.

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:39 pm
by Shiner86
Well, I think this is horrifying.

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:42 pm
by andygates
Why so?

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:57 pm
by Ovationman
Common law = common i.e everyone not just those of one religion.

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:58 pm
by andygates
Yes, and the common law has primacy.

Example: There aren't going to be any stonings. The British legal system, taking the Convention on Human Rights as guide, does not have punishments corporal or capital. There is no way that the -- to a Western eye, mine included -- crazier, sicker parts of some countries' implementations of Sharia law will ever appear here.

Common law also has areas of negotiation. Say, divorce. "Who gets what" is the kind of thing where arbitration can be appropriate. At that point, if you're dealing with a distinct cultural group, it's helpful to have arbitrators who are fluent in the languages and morés of that group. A divorce in common law is much, much smoother if the parties have agreed in advance to how the split is going to work, and that would be the role of the arbitrator.

This isn't threatening.

I think what *is* seen as threatening - apart from the misconception that Sharia is the thin end of a wedge that will have some village-hall imam lopping Little Johhny's hand off for scrumping, which is nonsense (the judiciary would never accept a hijacking of their authority, and the people wouldn't vote for such a big change) - is that a cultural group with inward-looking habits, all speaking a different language, might well be distrusted. That happens all the time, to any ex-pat enclave (hell, diasporic Jews have had to endure it for centuries). It's one of the hazards of a multicultural society.

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:05 pm
by mrdbeau
Andy & Ad'lan,

I think the reason most people are concerned about this is because Sharia law is pretty insane. Christians, and other religions, might have their own courts or what not, but in general, Christian and Jewish "law" don't call for honor killings and punishment of women who get raped. I'm not suggesting the British courts would go along with an honor killing or things like that, but the potential for a slippery slope of Sharia law gaining more and more acceptance is problematic.

Nevermind the fact that the whole premise of common law is already based on Judeo-Christian belief.

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:25 pm
by Ad'lan
Have your read Duteronomy, Liviticus or Number's?


Sorry, getting way, way to P&R, I'll stop now. I Promise, Or at least, I'll try too.

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:09 pm
by mrdbeau
Ad'lan wrote:Have your read Duteronomy, Liviticus or Number's?


Sorry, getting way, way to P&R, I'll stop now. I Promise, Or at least, I'll try too.
Have you seen a bunch of Christians stoning an adulterer lately?

Maybe if we were in the middle of the Inquisition, I'd be just as concerned about "Christian" law. :wink:

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:12 pm
by Valarius
Shiner86 wrote:Well, I think this is horrifying.
It... can be. In particular, if a woman is peer-pressured into going with a Sharia court instead of the existing British court, it would be horrifying and an abuse of both systems.

On the other hand, I've been reading thirdhand interviews in British news reports of women being kidnapped and taken back to Islamic countries for far more brutal punishment of various "crimes"--immigrants and naturalized citizens alike. Giving British Sharia courts some legitimization might be a culturally acceptable way for the authorities to circumvent the kidnappings.

Found something interesting in the Guardian: link to blurb
THE RISE OF ISLAMAPHOBIA

The Independent leads on a warning by Britain's first Muslim minister, Shahid Malik, on the "growing culture of hostility" against Muslims in Britain. The warning is coupled with a long piece by Peter Oborne, a columnist in the Daily Mail, to accompany his Channel 4 film to air on Monday, It Shouldn't Happen to a Muslim. Oborne, whose piece appears in both the Indy and the Mail, argues that "the systematic demonisation of Muslims has become an important part of the central narrative of the British and political media class; it is so entrenched, so much part of normal discussion, that almost nobody notices."

Oborne could well point to the splash in the Express to support his argument. The paper leads on the suggestion by Britain's most senior judge, the lord chief justice, Lord Phillips, that sharia law could play a role in some parts of the legal system. The negative take from the Express is that "the lord chief justice was accused of handling Muslim extremists yet more ammunition".

But, as the Telegraph puts high up in its front-page story, the lord chief justice also stressed that only the criminal courts should have the power to decide when a crime has been committed and when to impose a punishment.

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:54 pm
by Mad_Maxx
Mad_Maxx`s post make baby jesus cry :|

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:19 pm
by KayGee
THIS IS FOR CIVIL MATTERS! THERE WILL BE NO STONINGS, BEHEADINGS OR HONOUR KILLINGS!

On the one hand, Imam preaching hatred of the west in the middle of London, calls for Muslims to have more babies so they can take over the UK and for a 9/11 scale terror attack to hit Britain. On the other, two consenting adults are allowed to use their own religious laws as others have done for centuries.

I know which one I'm more concerned about.

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:31 pm
by OhioMe
KayGee wrote: On the other, two consenting adults are allowed to use their own religious laws as others have done for centuries.
Then moved back there if their laws are so awesome. They come to a new country, they must abide by the new laws, or go elsewhere.

:evil:

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:38 pm
by mrdbeau
KayGee wrote:THIS IS FOR CIVIL MATTERS! THERE WILL BE NO STONINGS, BEHEADINGS OR HONOUR KILLINGS!
Yeah, they don't really bother to take those matters to court, do they?
On the one hand, Imam preaching hatred of the west in the middle of London, calls for Muslims to have more babies so they can take over the UK and for a 9/11 scale terror attack to hit Britain.
The British government doesn't seem too bothered about that sort of thing, so they probably wouldn't sweat the honor killings too much, either, as long as two consenting adults agreed on it, of course.
On the other, two consenting adults are allowed to use their own religious laws as others have done for centuries.
In other countries. Millions of people live under Sharia law in the Middle East, and if that works for them, great. And given the way women are treated by the really crazy ones, how would you know if the wife/girlfriend/daughter actually is consenting?

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:48 pm
by KayGee
OhioMe wrote:
KayGee wrote: On the other, two consenting adults are allowed to use their own religious laws as others have done for centuries.
Then moved back there if their laws are so awesome. They come to a new country, they must abide by the new laws, or go elsewhere.

:evil:
Move back where?

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:49 pm
by crypto
Mad_Maxx wrote:
Islamaphobia is a good thing, in my eyes... I dont want that stuff around here, the few christian nutjobs we have are enough, we dont need any islamic ones (note, a few. Not all, but where there are several people of one religion, there`s bound to be a few bad eggs)

Shit, dude.

The lock. I am in before it.

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:49 pm
by Ovationman
Islam is a religion with many groups and beliefs within it. To say that Islam is bad totally is like saying that any religion is bad totally. If people want to settle matters in there religious preference they should do it in private or with the help of their religious leader. If they want this but into law then they should use a regular chout for use by all religions. It should not be a function of the government to do this. Separation between church and state is a very very good thing and should not be eroded no matter how harmless it seems at the time.

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:34 pm
by Doctor Jest
Mad Maxx,

Our rules require that
michelle wrote:If you have some genuine need to mention religion, please be sure you do so with respect and decency.
Your post, in my opinion, crossed that line.





All in all, we'd like you to avoid religious discussion (the no hate speech and the no religious debate rules point you in that direction, no?), but we do understand that there are times when religion becomes a legitimate topic here. And in those cases, we ask that you remain pleasant and polite.
This is a hot potato. If you folks want to argue the merits of dual legal systems, that's fine, but let's keep it respectful.

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:20 am
by Ad'lan
Ovationman wrote:Islam is a religion with many groups and beliefs within it. To say that Islam is bad totally is like saying that any religion is bad totally. If people want to settle matters in there religious preference they should do it in private or with the help of their religious leader. If they want this but into law then they should use a regular chout for use by all religions. It should not be a function of the government to do this. Separation between church and state is a very very good thing and should not be eroded no matter how harmless it seems at the time.
Seperation between church and state? What's that ;)

We don't have that here in the UK, we have the Church of England, with our queen at the head, we have blasphemy law's (only against the CoE though), we have bishop's in the house of lord's.

I agree, seperation between church and state is a very good idea.

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:26 am
by gridley
Hmm. Consenting adults. To me that means two adults who understand their options; including the fact that they HAVE options.

To note a semi-related case, a woman was recently denied French citizenship. Among other things, in interviews it was discovered that she didn't know she had the right to vote.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,383924,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So when a woman is raised in the UK and never told that she's got the right to go to a non-Sharia court, is she really a consenting adult?

Re: Sharia in Britain?!

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:41 am
by andygates
KayGee wrote:
OhioMe wrote:
KayGee wrote: On the other, two consenting adults are allowed to use their own religious laws as others have done for centuries.
Then moved back there if their laws are so awesome. They come to a new country, they must abide by the new laws, or go elsewhere.
Move back where?
Exactly.

We've got lots of second- and third-generation British Muslims. They're just fine. They're Brits. They've got Yorkshire accents are are more likely to say "chuffin' ell!" than "insh'allah". And that's before we get onto non-Arab-origin converts, lots of black folks of caribbean ancestry are converting. They're definitely Brits too.

"Go back" assumes way too much - that they're recent first-gen immigrants with no integration, for example. That's either plain wrong or plain racist.