Global Cooling will kill us all!

Stuff that’s happening in the world that may pertain to our survival. Please keep political debates off the forum.

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Postby SSgtMobley » Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:45 am

Ellie With An Axe wrote:I would love to be able to run my car on french fry oil, too.


In the 1980s my Grandfather modd'ed one of his cars so it would run on propane in an effort to find ways to avoid dependancy on gasoline and foreign oil. His designs were pretty ingenious, if always noncost effective for the era.

I wonder, honestly, how cost effective those old efforts would have been today with the price of gasoline having more than tripled since his days as an amatuer inventor.

Unfortunately, he died a few years back so we won't ever know.
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Postby New Militia » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:02 pm

The thing is, the earth goes through gradual stages of warming and cooling, it's just the way it was designed. I wouldn't react until things start to happen.
Climate change is gradual, you don't have to stock up now, wait until thing start to look worse.
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Postby SSgtMobley » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:05 pm

New Militia wrote:The thing is, the earth goes through gradual stages of warming and cooling, it's just the way it was designed. I wouldn't react until things start to happen.
Climate change is gradual, you don't have to stock up now, wait until thing start to look worse.


you mean when everyone else is doing it too?
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Postby dogbane » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:08 pm

SSgtMobley wrote:
New Militia wrote:The thing is, the earth goes through gradual stages of warming and cooling, it's just the way it was designed. I wouldn't react until things start to happen.
Climate change is gradual, you don't have to stock up now, wait until thing start to look worse.


you mean when everyone else is doing it too?


:lol: That'll work.
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Postby marzpan » Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:51 pm

I watched that global dimming video - man oh man. I know I'm not in tip top shape today but I got the distinct impression we're all pretty much doomed. I figure if the zombocalypse happens it'll look more like RE Extinction than we thought it would, just because the jets would stop flying.
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Postby New Militia » Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:33 pm

Not when everyone else is doing it, don't wait for the public sounds the alarm. Tips are: don't trust major news sources. Get news from a private source, there are many of them on the internet for free. Also, be observant! If YOU truly think that it is dangerous situation for you and your family, stock up! People are hasty, generalizing, and panicky creatures, and you know it. Don't do it when they do, it could be a false alarm. Also, don't wait until they do, or you could wind up empty handed.
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Postby marzpan » Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:44 pm

+1000 ^^
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Postby Apollo-11 » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:21 am

SSgtMobley wrote:
Ellie With An Axe wrote:I would love to be able to run my car on french fry oil, too.


In the 1980s my Grandfather modd'ed one of his cars so it would run on propane in an effort to find ways to avoid dependancy on gasoline and foreign oil. His designs were pretty ingenious, if always noncost effective for the era.

I wonder, honestly, how cost effective those old efforts would have been today with the price of gasoline having more than tripled since his days as an amatuer inventor.

Unfortunately, he died a few years back so we won't ever know.


Some of the fleet cars for the Oregon state government, the shuttle buses to the airport, and some cars for Portland General Electric and NW Natural Gas are powered by LP Gas conversions.

The tough part is mounting the tank so that it will withstand an accident. But it can be done... you do have to make some big changes to the car (fuel injection or carburator, computer, sensors, smog controls, etc.) but it does work and work well. The only drawbacks are that it is expensive to make the conversion, and you can't get the fuel at just any corner gas station.

The last time I checked (a decade ago) it was a break even proposition but it was progressively cheaper to drive, the more you drive beyond a certain threshold value. I would imagine that it is much more cost effective today, but also more expensive initially because of the complexity of the car. You would probably be far ahead of the game by getting a 20 year old car and converting it over.
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Postby razi » Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:50 pm

Apollo-11 wrote:You would probably be far ahead of the game by getting a 20 year old car and converting it over.


starting in the 80s means you can take a car from the 70s (or even 60s) and mod it easily. Mobley, do you know what kind of car he used?
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Postby Ellie With An Axe » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:03 pm

razi wrote:
Apollo-11 wrote:You would probably be far ahead of the game by getting a 20 year old car and converting it over.


starting in the 80s means you can take a car from the 70s (or even 60s) and mod it easily. Mobley, do you know what kind of car he used?

Speaking of mods, I've been looking into modding my 68 Beetle to alternative fuel, but so far I haven't found anything too appealing. I can't really do the ethanol stuff until I get all my seals and gaskets replaced, but with only 41 hp, any loss of combustion makes a big difference.
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Postby Sapient » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:06 pm

Ellie With An Axe wrote:. . . with only 41 hp, any loss of combustion makes a big difference.


Especially when the fine print on the spec sheet discloses that for your particular vehicle, the h stands for hamster.
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Postby GeneralDiscontent » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:22 pm

Ellie With An Axe wrote:Speaking of mods, I've been looking into modding my 68 Beetle to alternative fuel, but so far I haven't found anything too appealing. I can't really do the ethanol stuff until I get all my seals and gaskets replaced, but with only 41 hp, any loss of combustion makes a big difference.


For the price, you're probably better off finding a cheap diesel Rabbit or Golf and getting one of vegetable oil conversion kits. The only problem is that you used to be able to buy and sell those old VW's for a few hundred bucks all day long, but now they get snapped up pretty fast by people looking to convert them...
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Postby SSgtMobley » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:15 am

Ellie With An Axe wrote:
razi wrote:
Apollo-11 wrote:You would probably be far ahead of the game by getting a 20 year old car and converting it over.


starting in the 80s means you can take a car from the 70s (or even 60s) and mod it easily. Mobley, do you know what kind of car he used?

Speaking of mods, I've been looking into modding my 68 Beetle to alternative fuel, but so far I haven't found anything too appealing. I can't really do the ethanol stuff until I get all my seals and gaskets replaced, but with only 41 hp, any loss of combustion makes a big difference.


I can't remember the year, but it was a 1970s era car. It was a Gremlin.
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Postby El Maximo » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:14 pm

SSgtMobley wrote:
Ellie With An Axe wrote:
razi wrote:
Apollo-11 wrote:You would probably be far ahead of the game by getting a 20 year old car and converting it over.


starting in the 80s means you can take a car from the 70s (or even 60s) and mod it easily. Mobley, do you know what kind of car he used?

Speaking of mods, I've been looking into modding my 68 Beetle to alternative fuel, but so far I haven't found anything too appealing. I can't really do the ethanol stuff until I get all my seals and gaskets replaced, but with only 41 hp, any loss of combustion makes a big difference.


I can't remember the year, but it was a 1970s era car. It was a Gremlin.


My dad drove a Lime Green Gremlin. Thank god it died.
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Postby Apollo-11 » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:05 am

GeneralDiscontent wrote:For the price, you're probably better off finding a cheap diesel Rabbit or Golf and getting one of vegetable oil conversion kits. The only problem is that you used to be able to buy and sell those old VW's for a few hundred bucks all day long, but now they get snapped up pretty fast by people looking to convert them...


+100

I had one... after it was stolen about 6 years ago (who but a tweaker in Portland would steal a $600 Rabbit?) the insurance company declared it totalled due to the damage done in the theft. I have been looking for another one recently and they just are nowhere to be found.

One of the attractions, besides being able to make fuel for $0.50 a gallon (for the materials needed to process the used french fry oil), you don't have to do anything to the car. With ethanol conversions, you have seals and gaskets and hoses that will get brittle and leak. Biodiesel, if anything, makes the car run BETTER due to the lubricity in the fuel.
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Postby GeneralDiscontent » Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:31 am

Apollo-11 wrote:I had one... after it was stolen about 6 years ago (who but a tweaker in Portland would steal a $600 Rabbit?) the insurance company declared it totalled due to the damage done in the theft. I have been looking for another one recently and they just are nowhere to be found.


Yeah, I have relatives in that area and it strikes me as a very "green oriented" city, so they're probably snapped up almost immediately. If you're willing to travel or pay shipping, there are deals to be found - if I had the time and/or inclination to mess with it right now, I would jump on something like this. Another alternative is an older Mercedes, but only if you've got a cheap source for parts and are comfortable doing your own wrenching - the labor costs will kill ya :shock: . Another good place to look is the classifieds at greasecar.com - the downside is that those people know the prospective buyers viewing the site are willing to pay a premium for a good used diesel, but every once in a while you come across someone selling a car with the conversion already installed for a couple thousand dollars. Usually the problem is that they installed it on a bucket to keep the cost down, and don't want to mess with the maintenance required by a 20-year-old/200,000+ mi. car.

I really don't have interest in building one for a daily driver (I'm not motivated enough to go around begging restaurants for used fryer grease), but I'd love to build one just to have something to tinker with...
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Postby justin » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:45 am

I agree with Charlton Heston on this one.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ozO4YB98mCY
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Postby Maxxtactix » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:23 am

justin wrote:I agree with Charlton Heston on this one.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ozO4YB98mCY

I agree with what he said too, very eloquent, but he never mentioned humans surviving. :(
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Postby justin » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:32 am

Maxxtactix wrote:
justin wrote:I agree with Charlton Heston on this one.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ozO4YB98mCY

I agree with what he said too, very eloquent, but he never mentioned humans surviving. :(


Mostly because he will be one of the only ones to survive, I mean Charlton Heston has survived everything: the Egyptians, Orson Welles, Zombie/Vampire/Cults, Damn Dirty Apes, Michale Moore, a society that turns people into food stuffs...not to mention he served in WWII...Need I say more?
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Postby SSgtMobley » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:52 am

justin wrote:
Maxxtactix wrote:
justin wrote:I agree with Charlton Heston on this one.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ozO4YB98mCY

I agree with what he said too, very eloquent, but he never mentioned humans surviving. :(


Mostly because he will be one of the only ones to survive, I mean Charlton Heston has survived everything: the Egyptians, Orson Welles, Zombie/Vampire/Cults, Damn Dirty Apes, Michale Moore, a society that turns people into food stuffs...not to mention he served in WWII...Need I say more?


In the Pantheon of Awesome he is the king over Chuck Norris and Bruce Campbell. Sure Chuck can roundhouse the moon out of orbit. Sure Bruce can walk into the sunset with a 19 year old girl on his arm at noon. But Charlton Heston can smile at you knowing that he doesn't HAVE to do any of these.
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Postby ghostface » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:20 pm

I started going through the beginning of this thinking I would respond to every post that was contradicted by either fact or science, but the response quickly mushroomed far beyond anything anyone would likely read all the way through.

I'll touch on the few glaring problems with some of the posts I saw, and if anyone else has any questions about, refutations to, concerns with, or doubts about the existence of anthropogenic warming and resulting climate change, please ask here, or PM or email me.

1) The idea that Jan 07-Jan 08 "cooling" "erased" global warming-

*2007 was an incredibly warm year:

NASA 2007 tied for the second hottest year on record.
NOAA 2007 hottest ever land temps, fifth hottest year overall.
(NASA and NOAA use different baselines and NOAA doesn't count the Arctic, so there is a small difference in ranking)

*This January was somewhat cool compared to some of the record breaking ones we've had in the last two decades, but it was still above average: .18C above the global mean according to NOAA.

*Every time a record warm year is followed by a coldish winter, cries of "global warming has stopped!/is erased!" will ring. There was a greater temperature drop from the record (tied with 2007 for second) hot year in 1998 (boosted by a significantly strong El Nino) to the winter following. Some people to this continue to claim that warming stopped in 1998, despite 2005 being the warmest year on record. Mark my words, you will see this happen again and again as long as people continue to reject climate science: Every cold/coldish winter (but especially those that follow record warm years) you will hear that warming stopped/was a lie/has been erased, etc.

*It's also worth noting that the source DailyTech used for that article completely denied the idea that warming had been erased:

Anthony Watts wrote:I wish to state for the record, that this statement is not mine: "–a value large enough to erase nearly all the global warming recorded over the past 100 years"

There has been no "erasure".


2) The majority of scientists and/or the media were convinced that a new ice age/global cooling was imminent in the 70s:

This is flat out false. There was a cooling trend from the 40s-70s, due to aerosol cooling from particulate pollution and volcanism, largely in the form of sulfur dioxide. It was noted, but there was no scientific consensus on a new ice age/global cooling being imminent. Nor was there even a consensus reported in the popular press. The majority of papers published during that time dealt with global warming.{1}{2}

Image

When regulation limiting sulfur dioxide and other particulate pollution was enacted and volcanism died down a bit, the warming rebounded. And no, that doesn't mean we should go back to pumping sulfur back into the air to combat warming. Acid rain has its own set of consequences and the respiratory effects of particulates aren't pleasant either.

3) Natural variability/cycles and "a few degrees is no big deal":

Yes, there absolutely are natural cycles that alter climate. When someone flashes a graph of ice core concentrations of CO2 and temp and claims as proof that the current situation is just part and parcel of that, they are either very misinformed, or lying.

CO2 is a greenhouse gas. The greenhouse effect is uncontroversial science. Without greenhouse gases the Earth would be some 60F colder.

CO2 levels have varied in the past without human interference. However, they have done so over long periods of time and within a certain boundary.

Humans began changing the amount of carbon in the atmosphere through land use, and later through burning fossil fuels. Our burning of fossil fuels has pushed CO2 beyond its range of natural variability, and done so at a speed outside natural variability.

Natural variability:

Image

Human influence:

Image

Put it together, and you can see how much further and how much faster we've increased CO2 beyond natural variability.

Image

Image

We have exceeded both the speed of increase and the level of CO2 in the atmosphere far more than anything we have on record going back 800,000 years.

Image

We are pushing temperatures beyond the range of natural variability as a consequence.

While I take severe issue with anyone that claims we cannot establish a global mean temperature (we certainly can), those that ask "what temperature should it be?" ask a far more serious question than they realize.

There is no ideal temperature or temperature range for the planet itself. To the physical object of the Earth, we have no real relevance to its overall survival as a planetary object. There is however, a temperature norm that humans are accustomed to. What we have adjusted ourselves to habitation-wise and agriculturally.

Image

While the climate was not necessarily static in any one location, the global climate regime was more or less stable, averaged over time, and humans adjusted accordingly by flocking to enormous coastal urban cities and becoming dependent on fixed agricultural lifelines.

If we were a small tribe of hunter gatherers, climate change wouldn't be as severe, as we could shift with it and hopefully have enough resources to sustain our numbers. But we're sprawling urban centers, many of them on vulnerable coastlines, fed by dedicated agricultural centers that can't simply be up and moved degrees latitude as it warms.

Within that narrow band of +/-.5C, we have spread across the planet and established empires and kingdoms.

We are pushing beyond that band of natural variability:

Image

Next post, I'll probably deal with the issue of consensus. Anything else anyone wants to talk about as well.
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Postby ZScott » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:13 am

SSgtMobley wrote:
justin wrote:
Maxxtactix wrote:
justin wrote:I agree with Charlton Heston on this one.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ozO4YB98mCY

I agree with what he said too, very eloquent, but he never mentioned humans surviving. :(


Mostly because he will be one of the only ones to survive, I mean Charlton Heston has survived everything: the Egyptians, Orson Welles, Zombie/Vampire/Cults, Damn Dirty Apes, Michale Moore, a society that turns people into food stuffs...not to mention he served in WWII...Need I say more?


In the Pantheon of Awesome he is the king over Chuck Norris and Bruce Campbell. Sure Chuck can roundhouse the moon out of orbit. Sure Bruce can walk into the sunset with a 19 year old girl on his arm at noon. But Charlton Heston can smile at you knowing that he doesn't HAVE to do any of these.


You forgot Clint Eastwood

1. Charlton Heston
2. Clint Eastwood
3. Bruce Campbell
4. Chuck Norris
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Postby Ellie With An Axe » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:23 am

I seriously <3 ghostface's most awesome research-fu.
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Postby SSgtMobley » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:52 am

ZScott wrote:
SSgtMobley wrote:
justin wrote:
Maxxtactix wrote:
justin wrote:I agree with Charlton Heston on this one.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ozO4YB98mCY

I agree with what he said too, very eloquent, but he never mentioned humans surviving. :(


Mostly because he will be one of the only ones to survive, I mean Charlton Heston has survived everything: the Egyptians, Orson Welles, Zombie/Vampire/Cults, Damn Dirty Apes, Michale Moore, a society that turns people into food stuffs...not to mention he served in WWII...Need I say more?


In the Pantheon of Awesome he is the king over Chuck Norris and Bruce Campbell. Sure Chuck can roundhouse the moon out of orbit. Sure Bruce can walk into the sunset with a 19 year old girl on his arm at noon. But Charlton Heston can smile at you knowing that he doesn't HAVE to do any of these.


You forgot Clint Eastwood

1. Charlton Heston
2. Clint Eastwood
3. Bruce Campbell
4. Chuck Norris


I was going to mentio Clint Eastwood but I didn't think the server could handle a reference to all four in the same post. Evidently I was wrong.
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