Post Election Rioting and Protests

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Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by Stercutus » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:25 pm

They had an election. Somebody won. Elections have consequences. Some of those consequences are people unhappy with the democratic process.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/us/tr ... kland.html

I think the woman with the nose ring says it all. Mostly the usual suspects: Berkley, Oakland, Seattle, Portland, American University (but also Pittsburgh???)
BERKELEY, Calif. — Chanting “Not my president,” several hundred protesters streamed through the streets of Berkeley and Oakland in the predawn hours of Wednesday venting their anger at the election of Donald J. Trump as president. Demonstrations were also reported in Pittsburgh, Seattle and Portland, Ore.

The California Highway Patrol said that one protester, who was not identified, sustained major injuries after being hit by a car when protesters attempted to move onto a freeway.

The demonstration was one of the first visible signs of anger in the liberal and heavily Democratic San Francisco Bay Area after Mr. Trump’s surprising victory.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/sho ... p-victory/

Judging by some of the FB comments the rhetoric is at a very high level in stroking up anger.

It did not get much play but there was a bit of looting in Oakland in the 12-14th St areas.


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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by flybynight » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:05 pm

Doubtful it will get too bad since California also passed a recreational marijuana law. I bet Pepsico is celebrating that one.
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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by Stercutus » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:16 pm

And Chips Ahoy! (Nabisco).
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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by Close_enough » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:26 pm

And Domino's Pizza. You'd be amazed at the number of late night calls that are from stoners.

EDIT:I wouldn't worry about the protests too much. They're mainly college students. Unless there's prodigious amounts of booze involved, or your truck is sporting a "Make America Great Again" bumper sticker, it'll mostly be noise.

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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by JeeperCreeper » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:39 pm

meh... most of the places only have like 100-300 people. For a city that's like a crowded sidewalk.

As far as Pittsburgh, there are many colleges in the Pittsburgh and the state went GOP for the first time since 1988 so the "city" voters got out electoralled by the "country" voters. So the switch might have upset a few people... because college kids love to protest.
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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by Stercutus » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:08 pm

People sure are blowing up Facebook. Gotta wonder if it is keeping the Secret Service busy.
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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by taipan821 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:29 pm

You've should have seen the international financial market yesterday. I'm in Australia and I was a little concerned
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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by Stercutus » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:43 pm

taipan821 wrote:You've should have seen the international financial market yesterday. I'm in Australia and I was a little concerned
I was watching the DOW futures last night. They dropped 1000 at one point. Closed near record highs today. Wall St was in no way prepared for what happened. There was a whole lot of shuffling around. People were not exiting the market, merely repositioning.
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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by the_alias » Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:54 pm

Stercutus wrote:
taipan821 wrote:You've should have seen the international financial market yesterday. I'm in Australia and I was a little concerned
I was watching the DOW futures last night. They dropped 1000 at one point. Closed near record highs today. Wall St was in no way prepared for what happened. There was a whole lot of shuffling around. People were not exiting the market, merely repositioning.
A lot of people I know involved in finance in Europe were in very early to have their companies/funds make money on the turbulence.
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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by raptor » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:38 pm

There was an incident in NOLA. People spray painting monuments and they broke a window. This is the same group of quasi local paid agitators that act up on que.

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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by fred.greek » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:42 pm

"Not my President"... is how I've felt many times, especially the last 7+ years...

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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by the_alias » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:59 pm

fred.greek wrote:"Not my President"... is how I've felt many times, especially the last 7+ years...
Comments like this will get this thread locked.

Please refrain.
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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by MPMalloy » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:08 am

Hey Everyone:

The latest from http://www.breakingnews.com is that the shooting in Seattle may not be related to the protests occuring there. There may have been an arguement before the shooting. Are there any ZSers in SeaTac that have more info?

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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by Stercutus » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:43 am

Statement from CoP saying:

http://www.ibtimes.com/anti-trump-prote ... nt-2444435

"It wasn't related to the protest at all..."

I'd advise staying away from the protests. Lots of arrests, assaults etc.

I wish they would just move on the 4th and 5th stages of dying. They are still working the first three pretty hard.

Here is a run down of some of them:

http://www.pe.com/articles/protesters-8 ... um=twitter

I can't find an apolitical article on the protests so sort it through it as best you can.
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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by LowKey » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:27 am

Here's honest question:

If you're out in public and come under physical assault by a mob to the extent that you truly and sincerely believe that you are in imminent danger of bing killed by said mob (meeting the "Reasonable Person" standard) and use lethal force to protected yourself, what the hell happens afterwards?

IIRC, disparity of force (you vs an angry mob of hundreds) should justify your use of force IF they were truly trying to cause serious harm or death.
Even if if a weapon was being used against you it's unlikely to still be at the scene later when the police are able to begin mounting an investigation.
Unless everything happens to be on video you may have a hard time proving you were not the one who initiated violence.
All that assumes you managed to survive.....



I'd suggest looking into legal insurance if you CCW.



...and please, don't anyone ever take this as a suggestion to start blasting away at rioters (whatever the cause of the day may be). I'm just envisioning some poor SOB getting engulfed by a flash mob that turns nasty or the person who gets stuck in traffic, makes the wrong turn, discovers too late their commute route has them in the wrong place at the wrong time (a la R.D. in the LA Riots).
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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by raptor » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:28 pm

LowKey wrote:Here's honest question:

If you're out in public and come under physical assault by a mob to the extent that you truly and sincerely believe that you are in imminent danger of bing killed by said mob (meeting the "Reasonable Person" standard) and use lethal force to protected yourself, what the hell happens afterwards?

IIRC, disparity of force (you vs an angry mob of hundreds) should justify your use of force IF they were truly trying to cause serious harm or death.
Even if if a weapon was being used against you it's unlikely to still be at the scene later when the police are able to begin mounting an investigation.
Unless everything happens to be on video you may have a hard time proving you were not the one who initiated violence.
All that assumes you managed to survive.....



I'd suggest looking into legal insurance if you CCW.



...and please, don't anyone ever take this as a suggestion to start blasting away at rioters (whatever the cause of the day may be). I'm just envisioning some poor SOB getting engulfed by a flash mob that turns nasty or the person who gets stuck in traffic, makes the wrong turn, discovers too late their commute route has them in the wrong place at the wrong time (a la R.D. in the LA Riots).
This really depends upon the state where you are located. Different states have different laws and legal interpretations of when self defense is lawful especially when it comes to disparity of force. That can be a thorny issue even in self defense friendly states.

My advice is to avoid the need altogether of lethal force for self defense (Capt Obvious statement there :roll: ); that and consult a local attorney. This forum is not exactly a legal reference site and any advice along those lines, ZS'ers should assume caveat emptor applies.

If you carry a CCW I would strongly suggest CCW insurance. There are many sources for this coverage.

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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by MacWa77ace » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:49 pm

LowKey wrote:Here's honest question:

If you're out in public and come under physical assault by a mob to the extent that you truly and sincerely believe that you are in imminent danger of bing killed by said mob (meeting the "Reasonable Person" standard) and use lethal force to protected yourself, what the hell happens afterwards?

IIRC, disparity of force (you vs an angry mob of hundreds) should justify your use of force IF they were truly trying to cause serious harm or death.
Even if if a weapon was being used against you it's unlikely to still be at the scene later when the police are able to begin mounting an investigation.
Unless everything happens to be on video you may have a hard time proving you were not the one who initiated violence.
All that assumes you managed to survive.....



I'd suggest looking into legal insurance if you CCW.



...and please, don't anyone ever take this as a suggestion to start blasting away at rioters (whatever the cause of the day may be). I'm just envisioning some poor SOB getting engulfed by a flash mob that turns nasty or the person who gets stuck in traffic, makes the wrong turn, discovers too late their commute route has them in the wrong place at the wrong time (a la R.D. in the LA Riots).
Legit self defense is obtained when you can prove 5 points by a preponderance [except ohio]. Fail to meet any one of these and you're screwed. Legal insurance won't help much if you don't know this stuff upfront and you make a mistake regarding only one of these.
  • Innocence
    Imminence or the AOJ triangle
    • Ability
      Opportunity
      Jeopardy
    Proportionality [disparity of force falls under this one]
    Avoidance
    Reasonableness

I hate to say this but if anyone doesn't already know 'absoulutely' their answer for every situation they'd use deadly force for legal self defense, they shouldn't CC.
I suggest if anyone doesn't already know the ramifications for even 'totally legit self defense' and they CC, they should really start reading the numerous books on the subject. Not 'How To' books but 'why, when and what next' books. Because a zealous prosecutor may want to make a name for themselves, etc, so you can't make any mistakes no matter how 'reasonable'.

caveat emptor also applies
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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by Halfapint » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:04 pm

LowKey wrote:Here's honest question:

If you're out in public and come under physical assault by a mob to the extent that you truly and sincerely believe that you are in imminent danger of bing killed by said mob (meeting the "Reasonable Person" standard) and use lethal force to protected yourself, what the hell happens afterwards?

IIRC, disparity of force (you vs an angry mob of hundreds) should justify your use of force IF they were truly trying to cause serious harm or death.
Even if if a weapon was being used against you it's unlikely to still be at the scene later when the police are able to begin mounting an investigation.
Unless everything happens to be on video you may have a hard time proving you were not the one who initiated violence.
All that assumes you managed to survive.....



I'd suggest looking into legal insurance if you CCW.



...and please, don't anyone ever take this as a suggestion to start blasting away at rioters (whatever the cause of the day may be). I'm just envisioning some poor SOB getting engulfed by a flash mob that turns nasty or the person who gets stuck in traffic, makes the wrong turn, discovers too late their commute route has them in the wrong place at the wrong time (a la R.D. in the LA Riots).
Living in Seattle and being in the middle of and participating in plenty of protests here. Other than the few times we outted local LEO sent in to try and rile up the crowed, or the local and very well known black shirt anarchist. I've never once felt scared or that the protest was violent. Definitely never felt that I would need a CCW to protect myself usually a calm demeanor and a cool head will get you everywhere.
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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by the_alias » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:31 pm

Halfapint wrote: Living in Seattle and being in the middle of and participating in plenty of protests here. Other than the few times we outted local LEO sent in to try and rile up the crowed, or the local and very well known black shirt anarchist. I've never once felt scared or that the protest was violent. Definitely never felt that I would need a CCW to protect myself usually a calm demeanor and a cool head will get you everywhere.
That's cool but your anecdotal experience is just that.

I have been nearly caught in 'protests' in Europe where I very much would have felt more comfortable with a CCW and I moved quickly to exit the area. The worst was a group of socialists/communists protesting closure of a squat. We used to close the office on May day as well thanks to similar groups with leftwing ideologies also intent on causing danger and chaos.
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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by LowKey » Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:18 pm

MacWa77ace wrote:
LowKey wrote:Here's honest question:

If you're out in public and come under physical assault by a mob to the extent that you truly and sincerely believe that you are in imminent danger of bing killed by said mob (meeting the "Reasonable Person" standard) and use lethal force to protected yourself, what the hell happens afterwards?

IIRC, disparity of force (you vs an angry mob of hundreds) should justify your use of force IF they were truly trying to cause serious harm or death.
Even if if a weapon was being used against you it's unlikely to still be at the scene later when the police are able to begin mounting an investigation.
Unless everything happens to be on video you may have a hard time proving you were not the one who initiated violence.
All that assumes you managed to survive.....



I'd suggest looking into legal insurance if you CCW.



...and please, don't anyone ever take this as a suggestion to start blasting away at rioters (whatever the cause of the day may be). I'm just envisioning some poor SOB getting engulfed by a flash mob that turns nasty or the person who gets stuck in traffic, makes the wrong turn, discovers too late their commute route has them in the wrong place at the wrong time (a la R.D. in the LA Riots).
Legit self defense is obtained when you can prove 5 points by a preponderance [except ohio]. Fail to meet any one of these and you're screwed. Legal insurance won't help much if you don't know this stuff upfront and you make a mistake regarding only one of these.
  • Innocence
    Imminence or the AOJ triangle
    • Ability
      Opportunity
      Jeopardy
    Proportionality [disparity of force falls under this one]
    Avoidance
    Reasonableness

I hate to say this but if anyone doesn't already know 'absoulutely' their answer for every situation they'd use deadly force for legal self defense, they shouldn't CC.
I suggest if anyone doesn't already know the ramifications for even 'totally legit self defense' and they CC, they should really start reading the numerous books on the subject. Not 'How To' books but 'why, when and what next' books. Because a zealous prosecutor may want to make a name for themselves, etc, so you can't make any mistakes no matter how 'reasonable'.

caveat emptor also applies
My question isn't about what would make a defensive shoot legal in the eyes of the law, it was asking about how the post shoot events would take place (somewhere between the normal post shooting process and investigations into Katrina shootings months and years later?) given that physical exculpatory evidence (other than a body) are unlikely to still be on the scene or untampered with and that there is a fairly good chance that while it's likely that there were MANY witnesses to altercation it's very probable that those witnesses are going to be hostile to you.
How could or wouldl you prove it was self defense after the fact given those circumstances?
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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by MacWa77ace » Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:44 pm

LowKey wrote:
MacWa77ace wrote:
LowKey wrote:Here's honest question:

If you're out in public and come under physical assault by a mob to the extent that you truly and sincerely believe that you are in imminent danger of bing killed by said mob (meeting the "Reasonable Person" standard) and use lethal force to protected yourself, what the hell happens afterwards?

IIRC, disparity of force (you vs an angry mob of hundreds) should justify your use of force IF they were truly trying to cause serious harm or death.
Even if if a weapon was being used against you it's unlikely to still be at the scene later when the police are able to begin mounting an investigation.
Unless everything happens to be on video you may have a hard time proving you were not the one who initiated violence.
All that assumes you managed to survive.....



I'd suggest looking into legal insurance if you CCW.



...and please, don't anyone ever take this as a suggestion to start blasting away at rioters (whatever the cause of the day may be). I'm just envisioning some poor SOB getting engulfed by a flash mob that turns nasty or the person who gets stuck in traffic, makes the wrong turn, discovers too late their commute route has them in the wrong place at the wrong time (a la R.D. in the LA Riots).
Legit self defense is obtained when you can prove 5 points by a preponderance [except ohio]. Fail to meet any one of these and you're screwed. Legal insurance won't help much if you don't know this stuff upfront and you make a mistake regarding only one of these.
  • Innocence
    Imminence or the AOJ triangle
    • Ability
      Opportunity
      Jeopardy
    Proportionality [disparity of force falls under this one]
    Avoidance
    Reasonableness

I hate to say this but if anyone doesn't already know 'absoulutely' their answer for every situation they'd use deadly force for legal self defense, they shouldn't CC.
I suggest if anyone doesn't already know the ramifications for even 'totally legit self defense' and they CC, they should really start reading the numerous books on the subject. Not 'How To' books but 'why, when and what next' books. Because a zealous prosecutor may want to make a name for themselves, etc, so you can't make any mistakes no matter how 'reasonable'.

caveat emptor also applies
My question isn't about what would make a defensive shoot legal in the eyes of the law, it was asking about how the post shoot events would take place (somewhere between the normal post shooting process and investigations into Katrina shootings months and years later?) given that physical exculpatory evidence (other than a body) are unlikely to still be on the scene or untampered with and that there is a fairly good chance that while it's likely that there were MANY witnesses to altercation it's very probable that those witnesses are going to be hostile to you.
How could or wouldl you prove it was self defense after the fact given those circumstances?
Prosecutors only have to negate one of the 5 points so you can't claim self defense immunity.

Except for Ohio you don't have to prove self defense beyond a preponderance to claim self defense immunity. If you leave the scene entirely [not just move to reasonable safe location] and/or don't call the police to report it, you lose point 1, innocence, and if they catch you you're done. Innocent people call police to report the shooting and don't leave the scene. Also you must be the first to call the police, the first one thru to 911 is the victim. So is that you or the mob?

You will always have to prove self defense after the fact, just don't make any mistakes as to the 5 points during and after the fact, and at least you'll have that going for you towards your self defense immunity claim. And that you're alive to continue to defend yourself.
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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by raptor » Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:30 pm

LowKey wrote: My question isn't about what would make a defensive shoot legal in the eyes of the law, it was asking about how the post shoot events would take place (somewhere between the normal post shooting process and investigations into Katrina shootings months and years later?) given that physical exculpatory evidence (other than a body) are unlikely to still be on the scene or untampered with and that there is a fairly good chance that while it's likely that there were MANY witnesses to altercation it's very probable that those witnesses are going to be hostile to you.
How could or wouldl you prove it was self defense after the fact given those circumstances?
The world has not ended nor has the rule of law. The investigation would be conducted to the protocol of the locale. The circumstances would dictate what and how facts could be proven or determined. There are many sources that offer advice on the best post shooting attitude and actions.

I would say that any witnesses who were in the company of the deceased are VERY likely to be hostile and hopefully there is other physical evidence to prove your lawful conduct. Witnesses have been known to forget, exaggerate and (shocking I know) actually lie.

If you use lethal force you should assume you will be detained, at the very least, and you will need to talk to an experienced attorney before you start answering questions.

None of this is the subject of this thread however.

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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by fatty21 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:02 pm

https://www.amazon.com/Fox-Labs-5-3-mm- ... pper+spray

Just purchased for the truck.

Sting 1 to draw the rest in, then let'r rip like a secondary ied.

Been wanting a less than lethal alternative if I ever get stuck in the middle of some hecklers...

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Re: Post Election Rioting and Protests

Post by raptor » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:06 pm

fatty21 wrote:https://www.amazon.com/Fox-Labs-5-3-mm- ... pper+spray

Just purchased for the truck.

Sting 1 to draw the rest in, then let'r rip like a secondary ied.

Been wanting a less than lethal alternative if I ever get stuck in the middle of some hecklers...

Be sure to read your state laws. In some states pepper spray, despite being (relatively) non-lethal is treated in the same way as other lethal weapons if you employ it. So while it may be legal to possess it, its use may subject you to the same scrutiny (and penalty if you mess up) as if you used a firearm.

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