Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by Close_enough » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:15 pm

quazi wrote:How are they planning to enforce that? When I read the article they used words like "obliged" and "required" so it sounds like it's more than an advisory, but it also seems like the kind of thing that would be expensive and invasive to enforce.
I can't see them going door to door for something like this. It's simply too expensive. I can see them coming down on anybody who runs out of food during a lockdown.

I'm curious how the costs are going to be handled. A ten day supply of food for the average family of two adults and 2.6 kids is going to run $100-$150 USD. Not cheap if you're poor or in financial trouble.

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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by LowKey » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:23 pm

Ad'lan wrote: They do not expect to cut off peoples water supplies, so municipal water will still be available for those under a curfew.
That's assuming the municipal water supply hasn't been cut off by hostiles or the water supply hasn't been rendered unsafe for consumption.
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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by Smü » Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:02 pm

It's not required, it suggested. Also, despite it being part of a newly announced plan of inner security, this recommendation is rather old. The bureau in question has had a handout online for the public since 2010, even before that, but I didn't care for it at that time.

So, keep calm. No enforcing of anything. It is just stressed that people should be able to keep up for themselves for a period of time.


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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by mzmc » Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:03 pm

Okay, okay...

The "ten days of food and water" comes from a PROPOSAL by a BUDGET COMMITTEE that the German government shall ADVISE (not mandate) households to stock essentials. It's a plan to update federal emergency preparedness guidelines that have not been touched since the end of the cold war. It was in the making for THREE YEARS and has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with any recent attacks.

And I realize that spelling it out in capitals does not make it more true, but for fucks sake... the media, gotta love them. :vmad:


The BBK booklet suggests two weeks, not just 10 days, and everyone was "yeah, okay" (see http://www.bbk.bund.de/SharedDocs/Downl ... cationFile ). But the second elected rather than appointed officials talk about it, it's international news...

Smü beat me to it. And no, I'm NOT going to remain calm! I'm going to continue to bitch and moan about the news media. Because fuck them. :mrgreen:
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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by Stercutus » Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:33 pm

That is misleading as hell, apologies for the inadvertent spreading of lies.
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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by mzmc » Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:57 pm

No need to apologize. Well, not you, anyway.

I'm guilty of inadvertently spreading misinformation by regurgitating news articles as well. The people who get to call themselves "journalist" these days...
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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by quazi » Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:09 pm

Whoops, I guess I should have checked more than one source. :oops:

Is this the kind of thing that could be attributed to an easy translation error? For example, the words "necessary" and "required" can be used interchangeably in some contexts in English, but in other contexts they can mean very different things.

I guess I'll put away my broom.

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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by woodsghost » Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:10 pm

Close_enough wrote:
quazi wrote:
I'm curious how the costs are going to be handled. A ten day supply of food for the average family of two adults and 2.6 kids is going to run $100-$150 USD. Not cheap if you're poor or in financial trouble.
A 10 day supply of food in the US for 2 adults and 2.6 kids is more like $45-$48, and if you include spices, that becomes $50. And that is at 100% of calories, fiber, carbohydrates, protein, and vitamins.
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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by the_alias » Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:18 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Close_enough wrote:
quazi wrote:
I'm curious how the costs are going to be handled. A ten day supply of food for the average family of two adults and 2.6 kids is going to run $100-$150 USD. Not cheap if you're poor or in financial trouble.
A 10 day supply of food in the US for 2 adults and 2.6 kids is more like $45-$48, and if you include spices, that becomes $50. And that is at 100% of calories, fiber, carbohydrates, protein, and vitamins.
Maybe where you live.
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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by woodsghost » Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:40 pm

the_alias wrote:
woodsghost wrote:
Close_enough wrote:
quazi wrote:
I'm curious how the costs are going to be handled. A ten day supply of food for the average family of two adults and 2.6 kids is going to run $100-$150 USD. Not cheap if you're poor or in financial trouble.
A 10 day supply of food in the US for 2 adults and 2.6 kids is more like $45-$48, and if you include spices, that becomes $50. And that is at 100% of calories, fiber, carbohydrates, protein, and vitamins.
Maybe where you live.
Rice, beans, oil, salt, multi-vitamins. In the right proportions. Season to taste. Buy it all at Walmart (which is my gold standard for "available everywhere in the US").

Now, yes, I realize most people in America spend upwards of $150 a week on groceries. I know plenty of people who spend $300 a week. But we don't have to. We choose to.
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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by the_alias » Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:56 pm

woodsghost wrote:
the_alias wrote:
woodsghost wrote:
Close_enough wrote:
A 10 day supply of food in the US for 2 adults and 2.6 kids is more like $45-$48, and if you include spices, that becomes $50. And that is at 100% of calories, fiber, carbohydrates, protein, and vitamins.
Maybe where you live.
Rice, beans, oil, salt, multi-vitamins. In the right proportions. Season to taste. Buy it all at Walmart (which is my gold standard for "available everywhere in the US").

Now, yes, I realize most people in America spend upwards of $150 a week on groceries. I know plenty of people who spend $300 a week. But we don't have to. We choose to.
We have rather different versions of what constitutes "100% of calories, fiber, carbohydrates, protein, and vitamins".
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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by Stercutus » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:00 pm

Not sure how we got side barred but it did occur to me that if the German Government suddenly required everyone to keep an extra five days of food at home that would create temporary shortages at the market if the compliance rate were high.
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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by Smü » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:41 am

mzmc wrote: Smü beat me to it.
You, on the other hand used way better vocabulary than me.
quazi wrote: Is this the kind of thing that could be attributed to an easy translation error? For example, the words "necessary" and "required" can be used interchangeably in some contexts in English, but in other contexts they can mean very different things.
Well, yes, it could have happened somewhat like that. Given that I noticed a wide variety of translation errors occuring in everyday media, I wonder how much time, effort and care goes into translations in a media landscape competing over being the first to report something.

Can't be that much.

Without being political, the proposal of the comittee is widely answered with "dafuq?" among ruling parties and most media, some more reliable media outlets anaylze it, pointing out the ever exisiting suggestions of the BBK (the "federal bureau of keeping people safe and taking care of things gone sideways"). The proposal as a whole has a few points counteracting each other and would cut deeply into everyday life and personal freedom. Law suits for every one :clap: !
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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by Aikibiker » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:09 am

Stercutus wrote:Not sure how we got side barred but it did occur to me that if the German Government suddenly required everyone to keep an extra five days of food at home that would create temporary shortages at the market if the compliance rate were high.
Reading between the lines this is the German government's way of saying "If shit hits the fan don't expect us to be able to help you for at least a week." Sort of like what FEMA did after Katrina.
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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by NamelessStain » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:08 am

Well, it is more of a cultural thing. From my experiences in Germany, they are more of a daily shopper type. They will purchase freshly baked roll from the local baker for breakfast and pick up whatever they need to make dinner that evening. The people I knew rarely picked up food for more than 2 days. They focused on getting just what they needed for the next meal or 2. So the government saying 5 days is a big cultural deviation.

Just my experiences, so I'm sure there may be variances.
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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by sheddi » Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:05 pm

Smü wrote:[... the BBK (the "federal bureau of keeping people safe and taking care of things gone sideways").
That's a great name for a government department :)

Even the BBC got the tone wrong, althoguh I guess "told" is a catchier headline than "advised":

Germans told to stockpile food and water for civil defence
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37155060
For the first time since the Cold War the German government is advising citizens to stockpile food and water for use in a national emergency.

Some opposition MPs said the new civil defence concept, to go before ministers on Wednesday, was scaremongering. Citizens are advised to store enough food to last them 10 days, because initially a disaster might put national emergency services beyond reach. Five days' water - two litres (half a gallon) per person daily - is advised.

The German news website Frankfurter Allgemeine (FAZ) said the new concept was set out in a 69-page German Interior Ministry document. The document said "an attack on German territory, requiring conventional defence of the nation, is unlikely". But, it said, a major security threat to the nation in future could not be ruled out, so civil defence measures were necessary.

Soon, Germans began tweeting ironically under the hashtag "Hamsterkaeufe" (panic-buying).
(More at the link.)

I had BBC Radio 2* on in the car** today and the DJ spent 20 minutes talking (between songs) about the German recommendation. He got a few people phoning in, including a guy who runs a prepper store. To his credit the store owner didn't come across as a complete tinfoil-hat, and made the point that you should be planning for natural and technological disasters (floods, storms, blizzards, power outages, disruptions to logistics) and thatn they're more likely to affect you than war, terror attacks or the zombie apocalypse (yes he explicitly mentioned the Z-word :D ).



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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by sheddi » Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:13 pm

This is a bigger change, although I'd welcome input from our German members in case something ahs been lost in translation (again):

Germany considers return of conscription for civil defence
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37164960
Germany may reintroduce a form of national service for civilians to help the army deal with a future disaster.

The role of civilians is part of a new civil defence strategy to be discussed by the government on Wednesday. Since the strategy was leaked to the media there has been intense debate about stockpiling food and water. In a crisis civilians might be obliged to help direct traffic or provide fuel and accommodation for the military, German news agency DPA reported.

Germans appeared generally unfazed by what some MPs have called government "scaremongering" but the word "Wehrpflicht" (conscription) was trending on social media on Tuesday. The topic of civil defence also boosted the popularity of hamsters on social media, as Germans, with more than a hint of irony, adopted the hashtag "Hamsterkaeufe", which means panic-buying or hoarding like a hamster.

Germany's Die Tageszeitung daily sported a big picture of a hamster on its front page, with the headline "The End is Nigh" - which was widely tweeted.
I'm not sure how the BBC got from "word "Wehrpflicht" (conscription) was trending on social media" to "Germany considers return of conscription" :roll: but I'm sure it will all become clear in time ...
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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by Black Beard » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:05 pm

The British government made an equivalent leaflet 5-10 years ago. Nobody took much notice.

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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by Stercutus » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:13 pm

Trot that out in the US and we would have a panic on our hands.
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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by Smü » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:18 am

"Wehrpflicht" = something like army draft.

Up til 2010, every male citizen had the duty to be mustered and, if eligible, was mandated to either serve a short time in the army or do civil service. The candidate had to file for this exchange service, which a vast majority did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscript ... prov=sfsi1

It had been put out of effect, not gotten rid of. So, in theory, it could be reinstated, although I'd think with big budget cuts the army has had in the past years, I wonder how to even equip the drafted people. One should note that most people did social instead of military service, although this usually took a bit longer than serving in the army. That, on the other hand, helped an incredible lot in all things social, hospitals, kindergarten, special needs homes, retirement homes and the like.

In a nutshell, return to conscription is dribbled as an idea to boost numbers, with an added debate to lay the legal ground of deploying the army within german borders, which is not allowed under current law, aside from assistance when a natural disaster hits.


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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by Ad'lan » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:46 am

Black Beard wrote:The British government made an equivalent leaflet 5-10 years ago. Nobody took much notice.
I think there are some threads about it from the time.

It is currently very useful if someone looks at you oddly for being a prepper, being able to direct people to government advice and literature that confirms the necessity of self reliance has taken away the stigma of being a crazy survivalist... sometimes, in some of my conversations.
Smü wrote: It had been put out of effect, not gotten rid of. So, in theory, it could be reinstated, although I'd think with big budget cuts the army has had in the past years, I wonder how to even equip the drafted people. One should note that most people did social instead of military service, although this usually took a bit longer than serving in the army. That, on the other hand, helped an incredible lot in all things social, hospitals, kindergarten, special needs homes, retirement homes and the like.

In a nutshell, return to conscription is dribbled as an idea to boost numbers, with an added debate to lay the legal ground of deploying the army within german borders, which is not allowed under current law, aside from assistance when a natural disaster hits.
In the UK, the conscription act has not been repealed in a similar fashion, and a simple direct majority vote will reactivate National Service.
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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by Stercutus » Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:20 am

It would literally take TEOTWAWKI to bring the draft back to the US.
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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by Ad'lan » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:04 pm

Stercutus wrote:It would literally take TEOTWAWKI to bring the draft back to the US.
AFAIK, isn't selective service registration still a thing? Does it require congress to pass an act, just one house or both houses? Can the president do it by executive order?


(is my ignorance of how american law works showing?)

It may have nasty political fall out, but the legislation is in place for conscription in most countries that had it in the past.
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Re: Islamic Terror Attacks in Europe

Post by mzmc » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:20 pm

In case you were wondering, the minister's press conference today went like this: "Conscription? Nope, that's nonsense because it doesn't help with any of the threats we are facing."

How did this whole shitstorm come about anyway?

A report that got leaked contained a phrase along the lines of "The Post and Telecommunication Act provides adequate means for a large number of military documents (e.g. draft letters, in case of a re-institution of general conscription) to be served in a short period of time."

Which is government speech for "If the army needs to mail a whole bunch of letters, the postal service got them covered".

Do I really need to repeat my news media rant at this point? :vmad:
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