Munich shooting

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Re: Munich shooting

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:11 pm

I'd say it rules out right wing ultra-nationalist if true data. Sounds more like a running dispute.

I have not visited Germany other than a few flight layovers since '92. I do recall back then there was quite a bit of animosity between the turks and the natives.
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by the_alias » Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:17 pm

Munich Police just tweeted that public transport is set to return to normal so this may be winding down...

Now they just tweeted that they think the dead person was possibly the only attacker and he is dead. But it is tentative.
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by the_alias » Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:36 pm

BBC News:
Police say gunman was an 18-year-old Iranian man from Munich.

The Munich police president is giving more details on the gunman. He says he had been in Munich for "a while". When pressed he says it was for more than two years. The man was not known to law enforcement agencies. He says no links with terrorist groups have been discovered yet - but investigations continue.
http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-36870986
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by mzmc » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:19 am

Okay now, here are the aggregated "facts" (whatever that term is worth these days) from official statements and the more reputable German news media on the shooter:

- A single individual.
- No connection to any terrorist organization or organized crime.
- 18 years old, born in Munich.
- German citizen of Persian descent.
- Researched other people running amok, school killing sprees, etc.
- Primarily targeted people in his own age range.
- Gave conflicting statements on why he was killing (allegedly screamed "Allahu akbar" at a Muslim woman before he started, but also allegedly claimed he was a proud German and hated foreigners when talking with another person).
- Shot himself in the end.
- Unconfirmed reports of him undergoing pychiatric treatment in the past.
- Police claim there is "good evidence he was severely mentally disturbed".

So much for that. Oh dear.

That wasn't the first time, now was it?

Stercutus wrote:They were showing some National Police SWAT equivalent storming a building a moment ago. They had the look of people getting ready to put an end to this craziness.

I have been struck by the apparent lack of long guns by the Polizei. Pistols are convenient to carry and all but they absolutely are the wrong gun to be in a gun fight with.
That's highly unusual. In Germany it's "MP5 or go home".

Edited later:
Let me elaborate on that: Patrol cars usually don't have long guns. Special units (SWAT, Riot Police, etc.) usually have MP5s, so does every police station. GSG 9 has "whatever the hell you want, officer". Bavarian rural police departments have HK G3, because in case of angry steer, nothing beats a battle rifle.
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by Stercutus » Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:39 am

Patrol cars usually don't have long guns. Special units (SWAT, Riot Police, etc.) usually have MP5s, so does every police station. GSG 9 has "whatever the hell you want, officer". Bavarian rural police departments have HK G3, because in case of angry steer, nothing beats a battle rifle.
Nearly every "long gun" I did see was an MP5 or MP7.

That might want to be something that they look at. Given the current terror climate in Europe and the ease in which criminals can get a hold of AK-47s and body armor a 9mm PCC may not be the best choice. They could end up with Mumbai like scenario where the police are ineffective due to lack of proper gear.

The G3 is a very good rifle that when coupled with modern AP rounds would easily be able to defeat Level III armor. I know they have a shitton of them left over from the cold war unless they were de-milled and nearly every police officer in the country has had basic training in their use. Could be a good off the shelf solution until they come up with something better.
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by Stercutus » Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:33 pm

So it appears sicko offered a free giveaway at the mall at 4PM on a fake facebook account to try to raise the traffic level at the mall to create a more murder rich environment.
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by mzmc » Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:51 am

Stercutus wrote:So it appears sicko offered a free giveaway at the mall at 4PM on a fake facebook account to try to raise the traffic level at the mall to create a more murder rich environment.
That claim has been debunked in the meantime. No one really knows where it came from. Probably due to the initial confusion, what with reports of 3 shooters and all that.

Everything now points to a severely confused and mentally ill young man. He researched various mass shootings and school killing sprees for the better part of a year, bought a Glock 17 (apparently an insufficiently de-milled one from eastern Europe, that haas been reactivated), and then got to the mall and killed 10 people, deliberately targeting kids in his own age range. Police say he wrote a manifesto, but they won't release it.

Wasn't the first time, won't be the last.
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by Stercutus » Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:44 pm

mzmc wrote:
Stercutus wrote:So it appears sicko offered a free giveaway at the mall at 4PM on a fake facebook account to try to raise the traffic level at the mall to create a more murder rich environment.
That claim has been debunked in the meantime. No one really knows where it came from. Probably due to the initial confusion, what with reports of 3 shooters and all that.
Multiple news outlets are still reporting the Facebook claim do you have a link to the debunking?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07 ... n-outside/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ied-killer

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 52181.html
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by mzmc » Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:54 pm

Stercutus wrote:
mzmc wrote:
Stercutus wrote:So it appears sicko offered a free giveaway at the mall at 4PM on a fake facebook account to try to raise the traffic level at the mall to create a more murder rich environment.
That claim has been debunked in the meantime. No one really knows where it came from. Probably due to the initial confusion, what with reports of 3 shooters and all that.
Multiple news outlets are still reporting the Facebook claim do you have a link to the debunking?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07 ... n-outside/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ied-killer

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 52181.html
You are right. They have retracted the statement that the fake facebook profile had nothing to do with the shooter. The German minister of the interior himself did so in a press conference.

So apparently it was actually part of the gunman's plan. Posed as a teen girl to befriend guys, advertised free food at the McDonald's, all that stuff.

Huh.
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by Stercutus » Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:43 pm

Hardly the first time a killer posed as someone else on facebook to kill people. The world we live in....
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by aikorob » Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:59 pm

I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they’ve always worked for me.

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Re: Munich shooting

Post by Stercutus » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:28 am

I guess Germany will be headed back to the Cold War days when there were terrorist attacks every few weeks or so. :(


For the US we are headed into uncharted territory in living memory.
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by mzmc » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:24 pm

Stercutus wrote:I guess Germany will be headed back to the Cold War days when there were terrorist attacks every few weeks or so. :(
I wouldn't draw that conclusion based solely on the last two weeks. I mean it's possible, but... :|

Owing in no small part to colonial history, the main target in mainland Europe is France, and it will probably always be France.

Still, we'll have to get used to a certain threat level. Statistically speaking, this is still one of the safest places in the world. But that rational argument doesn't help much with the emotional distress of the sudden realisation "it can happen here."


Okay, so, the Würzburg attack doesn't seem like it has a terrorist background at all. It all reads more like an account of someone snapping and brutally murdering a co-worker.

The murderer was a 20-year old Syrian, his victim was a 45-year-old Polish woman. They both worked at the same fast-food place. The weapon turned out not to be a machete, but a tool of their trade: A 40 cm Döner Kebab knife.

The two other people where injured when he smashed a car window while on the run.

If you read German, this is a (rather trustworthy, as far as the news media go) summary of the known facts:

http://www.swr.de/landesschau-aktuell/b ... index.html

Close personal relation between victim and offender, weapon of opportunity... yeah, that's fucked up, up it ain't ISIS.

Not that that changes anything for her, she's dead either way.
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by Stercutus » Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:49 pm

I think the million or so refugees Germany has taken in recently might play a role in the frequency of attacks. The target does not really matter.

Spreading death and chaos is the important part.
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by Smü » Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:36 am

Been quite a week here in germanistan.

Munich attack was a lone wolf active shooter, it's called "amok shooter" here. He purchased his gun via darknet, a reactivated formerly disactived prop gun, alleged black market price 2k+ €. A second suspect has been arrested yesterday who might have known the shooter had something like this planned, both were in therapy together. According to the the somewhat reliable news, the shooter had a manifesto similar to Breivik's on his computer, first reports of him owning a digital copy of Breivik's manifesto have been proven to be false.

As to the other attacks, these were the ones:

- Axe wielding wacko in a train
- machete wielding wacko
- backpack bomber

all three of those reside(d) in germany since before the big 'fugee waves, nonetheless, it's a lot of "I told you so" vs "Don't throw away a basket because of one rotten apple" going on atm. Munich has sparked a discussion regarding gun laws, with an EU firearms amendment around the corner that, among other things, deals with exactly the issue of reactivated guns posing a threat. Being an illegal gun in the first place, owned illegaly, it pretty much proves the usual arguments of pro gun people. There is a surprisingly well mannered debate going on. We'll see.
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by KGBrick » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:33 pm

Smü wrote:There is a surprisingly well mannered debate going on. We'll see.
:ooh: Think you could spare some of that for export?

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Re: Munich shooting

Post by aikorob » Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:50 pm

KGBrick wrote:
Smü wrote:There is a surprisingly well mannered debate going on. We'll see.
:ooh: Think you could spare some of that for export?
yeah, right..............like we'd know what to do with it here :mrgreen:
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by mzmc » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:31 pm

KGBrick wrote:
Smü wrote:There is a surprisingly well mannered debate going on. We'll see.
:ooh: Think you could spare some of that for export?
Sorry, it's such a scarce ressource, we intend on using it all up just by ourselves.

You see, what helped a lot with that debate it that one ONE of the four highly publicized incidents was of the type everyone has feared for months. A "true" terrorist attack, with a bomb and all that. And precisely that one failed to take any lives, except for the bomber himself.

As for the other ones... well, we have the axe-wielding maniac on the train, who did declare his affiliation with ISIS, but again, that's not the "big event" everyone was waiting for.

The machete killer? Well, that one turned out to be a case of extreme workplace violence (or rather, violence among co-workers, as it happened outside of the restaurant), and the machete turned out to be a weapon of opportunity, namely a giant doner kebab knife. Would that have made international news, if the public wasn't already primed by the events immediately prior? Probably not.

That leaves the Munich shooting, the event with the highest death toll. That one turned out to be your regular killing spree by a severely disturbed young man. Well, those people are dead either way, but it wasn't ISIS.

In addition to that, there is also no "obvious thing to do" that special interest groups with their own agenda now can point to.

- Review asylum policy? Already in progress. Would not have affected any of thess perps, but sure.
- Extradite asylum seekers who've been denied refugee status faster? Sure, that process is in review, but how exactly do you deport someone to Syria in the middle of a civil war? Afghanistan is hard enough.
- Better weaponry (especially longarms) for the police? Sure, but that's not at all controversial, and some states have already started to buy equipment.
- Use the Armed Forces domestically? Well, that IS controversial, but that debate has been going on for so long, it has almost fizzled out.
- Smoother exange of information between European intelligence agencies? Yes, but that has been proposed a million times since we learned the 9/11 group was based in Northern Germany. Nobody can hear that same old song.
- Tougher gun laws? Well, the Munich shooter already broke every weapon law on the book by purchasing a center fire pistol, (1) without a licence, (2) while being under 21 years old, (3) while having a known psychiatric dissorder, (4) from an unlicenced foreign source, (5) without a serial number, (6) that had been de-milled and then re-activated. There are few ways in which you could have made his possesion of that firearm more illegal than it already was.
- Ban violent videogames, like the ones the Munich shooter allegedly played? For fucks sake, NO ONE wants to have that debate again, we are all over it.



What I'm trying to say is:

The debate is relatively civilized, because
- we are not France
- the ultimate disaster everyone was expecting hasn't happened
- there is no obvious solution, and all the usual drivel and agenda-pushing doesn't really fit
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:53 pm

As for the other ones... well, we have the axe-wielding maniac on the train, who did declare his affiliation with ISIS, but again, that's not the "big event" everyone was waiting for.


I am hearing it soured the Chinese on visiting Germany though. The big fallout on these attacks will be loss of tourism dollars.


Last Christmas Holidays we spent in Italy. We met practically no Americans in Italy the whole two weeks we were there. The only ones we met were in Florence.

On Christmas Eve we went to the Vatican to catch the mass and show the kids the Sistine Chapel and the amazing art collection. While we were standing outside St. Peters I was showing some things to the kids a news camera crew from Austria approached us and asked me if I'd be willing to do an interview? :?

They said they had been looking around for an hour and we were the first Americans they had seen.

They wanted to know if I was worried taking my family to Europe with the attacks going on? I told them if I were worried I would not be there. I explained firstly how I did not think that Italy was a target and secondly how impressed I was with all the security (it was pretty impressive in Rome). I threw in a bit more American bluster than was called for but it's TV right?

With attacks spreading to religious institutes and and the attacks widening in area I don't think I would go back this year even though I deem the threat still low in Italy.
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by mzmc » Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:58 am

,Okay, here is where it gets weird. Report from several, albeit less reputable, news sources say the following about David Sonboly, the Munich shooter:

He seems to have been up to the neck in Nazi propaganda. He was really proud of having been born on April 20th, like Adolf Hitler.

As a German of Persian decent, he considered himself pure Aryan (which under all sorts of crude racial theories that have circulated over the years, actually makes sense, by the way).

He seems to have developed a deeply routed hate for other people with brown skin, mostly due to the fact that other Germans associated him with them, and treated him as a foreigner. He especially hated Turks.

He also idolized Anders Behring Breivik.

That would also explain why he specifically targeted darker-skinned people in his own age bracket. The list of those killed is fulll of young people from Turkey, Greece, the Balkans... And it also matches the conversation he had with the man on the balcony.

It's a bit ironic in that context that he legally changed his name from Ali to David. David... Huh. Hard to get more Jewish.

This story has yet to be confirmed by any official source. But it does add up. :o


Other things DON'T agree with this profile. He was best friend with an Afghan, even told him about his plans to kill.

What we do know is that he was in psychiatric treatment and stopped taking his meds prior to the incident.

Maybe this "racial superiority" thing is not realy the main motive, maybe it's just part of the severely disturbed mind of a young man with several issues.
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by Stercutus » Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:33 pm

What we do know is that he was in psychiatric treatment and stopped taking his meds prior to the incident.
Well color me surprised.

I wonder if there are any other such cases involving mass shooters?

I mean other than like practically all of them that aren't terror or gang related.
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by sheddi » Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:12 am

It's not worth a thread of it's own but I see there's a pro-Erdogan gally going on in Cologne (or Köln, as you prefer) today.

And it's drawing counter-protestors from the far right *and* the left.

I can't see this all going horribly wrong at all ...
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by the_alias » Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:13 am

sheddi wrote:It's not worth a thread of it's own but I see there's a pro-Erdogan gally going on in Cologne (or Köln, as you prefer) today.

And it's drawing counter-protestors from the far right *and* the left.

I can't see this all going horribly wrong at all ...
If they want to rally for Erdogan they can buy a plane ticket to Istanbul. :clownshoes:
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Re: Munich shooting

Post by sheddi » Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:27 am

the_alias wrote:
sheddi wrote:It's not worth a thread of it's own but I see there's a pro-Erdogan gally going on in Cologne (or Köln, as you prefer) today.

And it's drawing counter-protestors from the far right *and* the left.

I can't see this all going horribly wrong at all ...
If they want to rally for Erdogan they can buy a plane ticket to Istanbul. :clownshoes:
Livestream here. It's Ruptly - RT in other words - but even they can't do much to spin a livestream, can they?

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