Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protests

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by RepoMan73 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:26 pm

lokifz1 wrote:
What clear PC?
That's a good question. Based on all the information released/leaked, it certainly looks like there is a lot of supporting evidence for the officer's story. There may still be an indictment due to community pressure but there seems to be a lot of reasonable doubt to prevent a guilty verdict at an actual trial.

As for the witnesses that say he was surrendering, I thought I read that the autopsies showed that he wasn't shot in the back and that he wasn't shot with his hands up. Physical evidence should be the tiebreaker when there are conflicting witness accounts.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Crakkerjakk » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:39 pm

RepoMan73 wrote:
lokifz1 wrote:
What clear PC?
That's a good question. Based on all the information released/leaked, it certainly looks like there is a lot of supporting evidence for the officer's story. There may still be an indictment due to community pressure but there seems to be a lot of reasonable doubt to prevent a guilty verdict at an actual trial.

As for the witnesses that say he was surrendering, I thought I read that the autopsies showed that he wasn't shot in the back and that he wasn't shot with his hands up. Physical evidence should be the tiebreaker when there are conflicting witness accounts.
Like I said. That comes up in trial. All you need as PC for an indictment is "Is there any evidence that meets the standard of PC that indicates a crime occurred."

Prosecutorial discretion comes into this a lot typically, but when a large part of the community is upset because they think the DA's office is going to use a grand jury to evaluate the evidence in a favorable light behind closed doors, you probably don't want to play into that fear. If the evidence for a crime occurring is weak, Wilson will walk when that becomes apparent in a public trial.

Whether Wilson shot Brown after he ceased being a threat is a separate question from whether there's PC to charge him for it.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by lokifz1 » Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:17 am

No "clear" PC for an arrest or charges.

In these cases they present the case to a Grand Jury. Just like are.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Stercutus » Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:55 am

Crakkerjakk wrote:
Stercutus wrote: Not being sarcastic.

First off The St. Louis FOP Union does not represent the Ferguson PD nor Darren Wilson.

Secondly officers are not required to join any FOP, so Wilson may not even be a member of any chapter. If he isn't a member he may not get fees paid by them.

Thirdly Wilson was trying to raise money to pay legal fees. Why would he bother if he already had that covered?
The Missouri FOP does represent him, though. I imagine they're taking donations to defray the costs (MO lodge 15, if anyone is looking to make a donation).

And in general I would have very little sympathy for someone who took a job where you're as likely to be in court as a law enforcement officer and then decided not to avail themselves of the legal protection paying dues to a FOP provides. Their choice, but also if they end up on the hook for court fees that's on them. And of course he can always avail himself of a public defender.
Don't know about that. The lawyer who the FOP use regularly is his attorney. That does not mean that the FOP is representing him. It does mean that he would want someone with experience.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Aikibiker » Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:35 am

Crakkerjakk wrote:
lokifz1 wrote:
Crakkerjakk wrote:
Stercutus wrote:So he should ruin the officer financially, cost the tax payers a bunch of money, get people worked up for years, just to trigger a massive riot with a not guilty conviction? Instead of just letting it die down? Because that seems to be to the two choices open to the prosecution.
The officer would be represented by the police union lawyer, almost certainly. And I think he should also be on board with the concept that if he shoots someone who's unarmed, there is a very good chance he's going to trail. I mean, every concealed carry class I've ever been to has drilled it into my head that if you shoot someone you should be assuming that you'll be going to court shortly thereafter, and that's mostly assuming an armed assailant.

Anyway. I don't think this will die down. Not without some pretty hefty changes in the relationship between the populace and law enforcement. And having a leaky sieve of a grand jury that is secret except for selected hearsay that makes the officer look good followed by a failure to indict when clear PC exists is probably not the way to do that.
What clear PC?
Multiple eyewitness statements that Brown was surrendering when the final shots occurred. It doesn't matter that there is also contradictory evidence otherwise. PC for a indictment is simply that there is SOME evidence that something happened that is a crime, to the best of my knowledge. Which evidence accurately reflects what actually happened is a matter for the trial.
Witness testimony is generally not enough to make the probable cause standard due to how unreliable witnesses tend to be. Look at this case. There are witnesses claiming two different things. And you know what I don't think either side is lieing. I think they saw the shooting, but because of faulty memory, perception bias, and a dozen other things what they remember is not the actual events.

If you want an example find a video of a crime being committed on your favorite streaming video site. Watch that video only once, then write down what happened and what the criminal(s) looked like. Be as detailed as possible including facial expressions, gestures, and quotes if there is sound on the video. Then with what you have written watch the video again and see how accurate you were.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Crakkerjakk » Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:26 pm

No, eyewitness statements are generally assumed to be reliable and count as PC. Anonymous tips have to be corroborated to count as PC.

You're right that eyewitness testimony is often unreliable and physical evidence is strongly preferred, especially at trial. But that doesn't mean having multiple eyewitnesses claiming that Wilson shot Brown after he ceased to be a threat isn't enough PC for an indictment, even with conflicting eyewitness statements.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Stercutus » Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:50 pm

There is more to it than that. Here is a good article about eye witnesses, written by a law professor.

http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewco ... ontext=ulj

Just remember "probable" involves probabilities, not certainties.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by EAFHR » Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:35 am

St. Louis schools are asking that the prosecutor release the grand jury decision in the evening or on the weekend, because of the difficulty riots could cause getting students home.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 9a66f.html

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Boondock » Sun Nov 02, 2014 6:12 pm

Ferguson no-fly zone sought to bar press from riot coverage:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6090502

Edit: I meant to post this in the main Ferguson thread. Feel free to merge it, Mods.

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by LJ126 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:27 pm

Jeriah wrote:All of this is going to be different in St. Louis, of course, and it seems like "Be careful, especially if you're Black" would be good advice when interacting with LEOs there. I'm not saying "...because the cops are racist murderers," so please don't read that in there. But it may be (okay, definitely is) that ethnic minorities get less of a benefit of the doubt in some situations.

If we had some St. Louis LEOs on here it would be great to hear their perspectives, too.
Do Park Rangers count? I'd be very happy to share my experiences related to this topic.

Given the amount of distrust for law enforcement from certain elements of our society, it's become a dangerous proposition to write a parking citation to the wrong person.... even when they're clearly in the wrong. I can recall multiple incidents in the last two months where I've been challenged by a crowd of individuals, none of whom are actually involved in what is taking place, and being required to radio for assist vehicles because I'm stepping past that clearly marked line on the ground called "dangerous/hazardous situation ahead." Sarcasm warning... wait, too late.

Now, imagine stopping and interacting with someone who closely matches the description of a bank robbery suspect that happened only hours before. You think this situation is going to be more or less volatile than the parking citation? Just wait 'til the crowd around them gets involved too.

So yeah, you wanna hear the perspective of a law enforcement agent post-Ferguson? It's a really crappy time to be a Saint Louis area cop. You can't get your job done under the best of circumstances, and in the worst, something mundane is turning into something that might be hazardous to not only your own well-being, but that of uninvolved bystanders too.

For what it's worth, I swore an oath to protect the Constitution. And I'll die to uphold that oath. But that does not give people license to spit on us, or act belligerently towards us, as a matter of their First Amendment protections to their self-expression.
Last edited by LJ126 on Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by EAFHR » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:36 pm

LJ126 wrote:Do Park Rangers count? I'd be very happy to share my experiences related to this topic.
...
For what it's worth, I swore an oath to protect the Constitution. And I'll die to uphold that oath. But that does not give people license to spit on us, or act belligerently towards us, as a matter of their First Amendment protections to their self-expression.
Thank you! I live in St. Louis, and am grateful for the large majority of LEOs who are faithfully doing a dangerous and unappreciated job.

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Stercutus » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:59 pm

In the final analysis the people get the level of government service that they deserve. Eventually enough higher quality police officers will quit/ retire to find jobs elsewhere and then get replaced with lower quality (read "whoever they can find willing to take the job, if anyone...") and things will then really go into the crapper.

Without law enforcement business and industry will simply go elsewhere since there will be no safe and worthy opportunities to pursue in a poorly policed, semi-lawless area. Then you have nothing left but ghetto. This can happen slow or fast.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by WutsFrequencyKeneth » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:20 pm

Stercutus wrote:In the final analysis the people get the level of government service that they deserve.
I don't think I understand that statement. What did that mean?

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Stercutus » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:37 pm

WutsFrequencyKeneth wrote:
Stercutus wrote:In the final analysis the people get the level of government service that they deserve.
I don't think I understand that statement. What did that mean?
Which part was unclear?
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by LJ126 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:01 pm

EAFHR wrote: Thank you! I live in St. Louis, and am grateful for the large majority of LEOs who are faithfully doing a dangerous and unappreciated job.
You're very welcome, and thank you for the acknowledgement. It means a lot to know that people are grateful for what we do.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by lailr » Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:03 pm

I will say as a N.C. LEO, anytime you have to deal with a certain sub-culture, you going to be screamed at and called racist no matter what......even if your the same race!

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Mountainsquid » Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:42 pm

My police scanner app sent a notification to my phone and woke me up, helpfully informing me that 9000 people were listening to the Missouri Highway Patrol channels. By the time I got to work 90minutes later it had bumped up to 15000 people.

America loves a train wreck, I guess.

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by MaconCJ7 » Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:52 pm

Supposedly the Grand Jury decision is to be released at 2100 EST
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by McSquishin » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:34 pm

It's official, no indictment. Now we wait.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Neptune Glory » Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:20 pm

Didn't have to wait long... police cars being bashed at / one attempt to be flipped over, both St. Louis County police cars. Seattle and Philadelphia apparently have protests starting up as well. Lots of people in Ferguson.

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Valarius » Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:32 pm

I would advise all and any ZS in the area simply to stay in and chill with a book tonight. Or beer. Or game. Whatever.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by flybynight » Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:46 pm

F that, lock and load.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Aikibiker » Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:49 pm

http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/17925/web

Missouri State Highway Patrol - Troop C Live Audio Feed

It is a lot worse then the news is reporting. Lots of looting, fires, and shots fired.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by KGBrick » Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:28 pm

I'm tempted to joke about early holiday shopping but that's just too big a target. :oops: Gotta maintain my standards.

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