Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protests

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Neptune Glory » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:54 pm

yummbrains wrote:
Neptune Glory wrote:As far as preparedness, we installed a home alarm on Friday (thankfully there was a promotion, no cost for equipment or installation). We're being careful about where we drive. I choose to be legally armed, my spouse does not but when she walks at night, our large dog is on a leash with her.

Other than the new alarm, it's situation normal. What else would Zombie Squad folks suggest, in terms of preparedness for this civil unrest?
I carry non-lethal with me too, like pepper spray. Mostly because I don't want to have to use a gun if I can get away with pepper spray.
Oh, I do that, too. EDC = cell phone, pepper spray, metal shafted pen, strobe-capable flashlight... and when legal, pistol and backup magazine.

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by hondo » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:59 pm

yummbrains wrote:
hondo wrote: ... First of all you are wrong, ....
The Chief already apologized for the fact that he was in the street for too long.
The Chief can apologize as much as he wants it does not change the facts undertakers were called and were at the scene within 45 minutes after the event took place, they were told not to exit their van due to shots being fired and crowd grow angry, maybe the chief apologized for his officers not being able to take control of the situation? Also if his body was collected 15 minutes after the event then outcry would be police cover up.

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by yummbrains » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:39 pm

hondo wrote: ... The Chief can apologize as much as he wants it does not change the facts undertakers were called and were at the scene within 45 minutes after the event took place, they were told not to exit their van due to shots being fired and crowd grow angry, maybe the chief apologized for his officers not being able to take control of the situation? Also if his body was collected 15 minutes after the event then outcry would be police cover up.
The point I am making is that it is a mistake to leave a body like that uncovered and in full view. It was eventually covered, it was eventually removed, but the body was handled badly and that's on the police and the Chief acknowledged it. You even agree with me that this was a police decision to leave the body there. That particular image is a really powerful symbol for all that pent-up anger.

I don't think your time frame is correct but I am the first to admit that I don't have all of the facts of the incident yet. I am looking forward to seeing a full report after it's done.

There probably aren't many prepping lessons left for me in this thread but I appreciate everyone's input on my questions :)

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Fortitudine » Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:46 am

yummbrains wrote:Hi Fortitudine, which shootings do you mean, w/r/t the shooting death of violent criminals? Have the recent victims been found to be violent criminals or do you mean other incidents?
yummbrains wrote:Hi, thanks, yes I'm familiar with the incidents but the investigations are not finished yet. I just wondered if new info had come to light. I did see that more forensic info came out on the Myers shooting this week. The only thing I know for sure about the Brown shooting is that his body was left in the street for several hours. That's a powerful image. The facts will eventually be established but leaving him in view like that was a huge mistake by the police.
If you're suggesting that I shouldn't refer to them as violent criminals, get over it.
dogbane wrote:Subsequent reports said that Wilson did not suffer an orbital fracture and that x-rays and photos purporting to depict the injury were not, in fact, Wilson.

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ETA: From a preparedness point of view, I think it's important not to contribute to the problem by spreading dubious information.
No need to be a dick about it. I saw the news reports concerning the orbital fracture, but never saw any retractions. It is clear, however, that Officer Wilson suffered injuries to the face. If you have an explanation as to how my statement, which relayed information widely reported by media outlets, contributed to the problem in St. Louis, I'd be interested in hearing it. However, I suppose if I were shouting that Brown was on his knees with his hands up, that might be the case.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Chef » Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:14 am

Speaking of racially tinged shootings, this humble observer is currently on jury duty, awaiting a court session on the same floor in the same courthouse as the Michael Dunn sentencing... :clap:

Only saw two protestators so far.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Crakkerjakk » Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:00 pm

Fortitudine wrote:If you have an explanation as to how my statement, which relayed information widely reported by media outlets, contributed to the problem in St. Louis, I'd be interested in hearing it.
I think one of the complaints frequently voiced in these types of events is that news media often uncritically reports information in a way that prejudges people accused of crimes. So that would definitely be contributing to the problem, if you accept the premise that the news media should be more supportive of the whole "innocent till proven guilty" thing and better at acknowledging probable bias in getting information from sources whose job it is to charge and convict the person they're providing information about.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by hondo » Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:07 pm

yummbrains wrote:
hondo wrote: ... The Chief can apologize as much as he wants it does not change the facts undertakers were called and were at the scene within 45 minutes after the event took place, they were told not to exit their van due to shots being fired and crowd grow angry, maybe the chief apologized for his officers not being able to take control of the situation? Also if his body was collected 15 minutes after the event then outcry would be police cover up.
The point I am making is that it is a mistake to leave a body like that uncovered and in full view. It was eventually covered, it was eventually removed, but the body was handled badly and that's on the police and the Chief acknowledged it. You even agree with me that this was a police decision to leave the body there. That particular image is a really powerful symbol for all that pent-up anger.

I don't think your time frame is correct but I am the first to admit that I don't have all of the facts of the incident yet. I am looking forward to seeing a full report after it's done.

There probably aren't many prepping lessons left for me in this thread but I appreciate everyone's input on my questions :)
You have no point that is the problem, simply put Aurora Colorado Shooting, Newtown CT shooting some bodies were left at the crime scene for 24 hours because body is the part of the crime scene.
Exactly it was sound police decision to leave body until scene was processed and until became safe for undertaker to remove body without risk of being shot. Now if they picked up body and took it away as soon as they arrived outcry would be Police Cover Up. Nope it is just a part of narrative where 300 pound,6.4 feet tall violent criminal attacked police officer and got himself shot in the process it is really simple do not fight police on the street, fight it in the court on the street cops win every time.

By the way there is a link for you from CNN http://situationroom.blogs.cnn.com/2014 ... hpt=sr_mid

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by RickOShea » Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:51 pm

Ruh roh......

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/18/us/fe ... uggle.html
....In September, Officer Wilson appeared for four hours before a St. Louis County grand jury, which was convened to determine whether there is probable cause that he committed a crime. Legal experts have said that his decision to testify was surprising, given that it was not required by law. But the struggle in the car may prove to be a more influential piece of information for the grand jury, one that speaks to Officer Wilson’s state of mind, his feeling of vulnerability and his sense of heightened alert when he killed Mr. Brown....

....The officials said that while the federal investigation was continuing, the evidence so far did not support civil rights charges against Officer Wilson. To press charges, the Justice Department would need to clear a high bar, proving that Officer Wilson willfully violated Mr. Brown’s civil rights when he shot him......

....The officials briefed on the case said the forensic evidence gathered in the car lent credence to Officer Wilson’s version of events....

Tough guys on Twitter already saying that "Ferguson/STL/the whole country" will burn.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Stercutus » Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:21 pm

RickOShea wrote:Ruh roh......

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/18/us/fe ... uggle.html
....In September, Officer Wilson appeared for four hours before a St. Louis County grand jury, which was convened to determine whether there is probable cause that he committed a crime. Legal experts have said that his decision to testify was surprising, given that it was not required by law. But the struggle in the car may prove to be a more influential piece of information for the grand jury, one that speaks to Officer Wilson’s state of mind, his feeling of vulnerability and his sense of heightened alert when he killed Mr. Brown....

....The officials said that while the federal investigation was continuing, the evidence so far did not support civil rights charges against Officer Wilson. To press charges, the Justice Department would need to clear a high bar, proving that Officer Wilson willfully violated Mr. Brown’s civil rights when he shot him......

....The officials briefed on the case said the forensic evidence gathered in the car lent credence to Officer Wilson’s version of events....

Tough guys on Twitter already saying that "Ferguson/STL/the whole country" will burn.

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by crypto » Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:41 am

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/crime/20 ... /17449967/


And now ATF shot at some people in Ferguson today, after suspects allegedly tried to ram an agent car while they were investigating a gun store break-in this week.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by crypto » Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:46 am

RickOShea wrote:Ruh roh......

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/18/us/fe ... uggle.html
....In September, Officer Wilson appeared for four hours before a St. Louis County grand jury, which was convened to determine whether there is probable cause that he committed a crime. Legal experts have said that his decision to testify was surprising, given that it was not required by law. But the struggle in the car may prove to be a more influential piece of information for the grand jury, one that speaks to Officer Wilson’s state of mind, his feeling of vulnerability and his sense of heightened alert when he killed Mr. Brown....

....The officials said that while the federal investigation was continuing, the evidence so far did not support civil rights charges against Officer Wilson. To press charges, the Justice Department would need to clear a high bar, proving that Officer Wilson willfully violated Mr. Brown’s civil rights when he shot him......

....The officials briefed on the case said the forensic evidence gathered in the car lent credence to Officer Wilson’s version of events....

Tough guys on Twitter already saying that "Ferguson/STL/the whole country" will burn.
Yeah, that will likely add fuel to the fire, regardless of whether Mr Wilson's version of events is found to be truthful. I would suspect that even if the grand jury returns no true bill, that the DA will likely be pressured into issuing an indictment and this will go to trial. There is enormous political pressure at all levels 'to do something'.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Stercutus » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:00 pm

crypto wrote:http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/crime/20 ... /17449967/


And now ATF shot at some people in Ferguson today, after suspects allegedly tried to ram an agent car while they were investigating a gun store break-in this week.
Its ok. It is the ATF. More than a dozen shots fired and no one hit.

However to tie it up in a neat package the guns stolen from the store were recovered in the vehicle.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Crakkerjakk » Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:19 am

crypto wrote:
RickOShea wrote:Ruh roh......

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/18/us/fe ... uggle.html
....In September, Officer Wilson appeared for four hours before a St. Louis County grand jury, which was convened to determine whether there is probable cause that he committed a crime. Legal experts have said that his decision to testify was surprising, given that it was not required by law. But the struggle in the car may prove to be a more influential piece of information for the grand jury, one that speaks to Officer Wilson’s state of mind, his feeling of vulnerability and his sense of heightened alert when he killed Mr. Brown....

....The officials said that while the federal investigation was continuing, the evidence so far did not support civil rights charges against Officer Wilson. To press charges, the Justice Department would need to clear a high bar, proving that Officer Wilson willfully violated Mr. Brown’s civil rights when he shot him......

....The officials briefed on the case said the forensic evidence gathered in the car lent credence to Officer Wilson’s version of events....

Tough guys on Twitter already saying that "Ferguson/STL/the whole country" will burn.
Yeah, that will likely add fuel to the fire, regardless of whether Mr Wilson's version of events is found to be truthful. I would suspect that even if the grand jury returns no true bill, that the DA will likely be pressured into issuing an indictment and this will go to trial. There is enormous political pressure at all levels 'to do something'.
IME the grand jury will return whatever the DA wants it to return. Ham sammiches and all that.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by crypto » Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:54 am

There's an open carry walk scheduled for downtown St. Louis this weekend. It looks like its going to be attended almost entirely by suburbanites from surrounding counties.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showt ... ct-25-2014


I can only imagine how many different ways this might go.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by LJ126 » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:30 pm

crypto wrote:There's an open carry walk scheduled for downtown St. Louis this weekend. It looks like its going to be attended almost entirely by suburbanites from surrounding counties.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showt ... ct-25-2014


I can only imagine how many different ways this might go.
Well, given that O.C. is not legal in downtown STL, I bet that a bunch of freedom-loving patriots are about to become felons.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Stercutus » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:32 pm

crypto wrote:There's an open carry walk scheduled for downtown St. Louis this weekend. It looks like its going to be attended almost entirely by suburbanites from surrounding counties.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showt ... ct-25-2014


I can only imagine how many different ways this might go.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by KGBrick » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:30 pm

LJ126 wrote:
crypto wrote:There's an open carry walk scheduled for downtown St. Louis this weekend. It looks like its going to be attended almost entirely by suburbanites from surrounding counties.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showt ... ct-25-2014


I can only imagine how many different ways this might go.
Well, given that O.C. is not legal in downtown STL, I bet that a bunch of freedom-loving patriots are about to become felons.
Looks like the recently-passed Missouri Senate Bill 656 preempts local bans on open carry by people with pistol permits. Though with all the tension I wouldn't be surprised if the march still manages to cause a few felonies.

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by crypto » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:01 pm

LJ126 wrote:
crypto wrote:There's an open carry walk scheduled for downtown St. Louis this weekend. It looks like its going to be attended almost entirely by suburbanites from surrounding counties.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showt ... ct-25-2014


I can only imagine how many different ways this might go.
Well, given that O.C. is not legal in downtown STL, I bet that a bunch of freedom-loving patriots are about to become felons.


No, thats the point of the Education Walk. Amendment 5 just passed last month, the state now specifically has pre-emption on municipal ordinances barring open carry, provided you are a CCW permit holder, but the text of the passed amendment has been widely interpreted as being statewide Constitutional carry.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by RickOShea » Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:39 pm

Evidence supports officer’s account of shooting in Ferguson:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... n-ferguson

Seven or eight African American eyewitnesses have provided testimony consistent with Wilson’s account, but none of them have spoken publicly out of fear for their safety, The Washington Post’s sources said.......

.......Tim Fitch, a former St. Louis County Police Chief, said there are benefits to leaking crucial information to the public ahead of a grand jury announcement. “I think it’s good to get some accurate information out there. That way on game day, it’s not a surprise to people,” said Fitch, who retired last year from the county police department, which is now conducting the investigation into Wilson.

Surprise or not, I don't think it's gonna have much affect on "game day". If you haven't already, y'all may want to be prepared for a bumpy ride.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Stercutus » Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:01 pm

RickOShea wrote:Evidence supports officer’s account of shooting in Ferguson:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... n-ferguson

Seven or eight African American eyewitnesses have provided testimony consistent with Wilson’s account, but none of them have spoken publicly out of fear for their safety, The Washington Post’s sources said.......

.......Tim Fitch, a former St. Louis County Police Chief, said there are benefits to leaking crucial information to the public ahead of a grand jury announcement. “I think it’s good to get some accurate information out there. That way on game day, it’s not a surprise to people,” said Fitch, who retired last year from the county police department, which is now conducting the investigation into Wilson.

Surprise or not, I don't think it's gonna have much affect on "game day". If you haven't already, y'all may want to be prepared for a bumpy ride.
What you mean the same crowd that is threatening to kill the officer every day, staging violent protests and looting... might not accept eye witnesses that don't agree with their own account? Then might pose a threat to honest witnesses? Cannabe....
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Aikibiker » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:18 am

yummbrains wrote:
hondo wrote: ... The Chief can apologize as much as he wants it does not change the facts undertakers were called and were at the scene within 45 minutes after the event took place, they were told not to exit their van due to shots being fired and crowd grow angry, maybe the chief apologized for his officers not being able to take control of the situation? Also if his body was collected 15 minutes after the event then outcry would be police cover up.
The point I am making is that it is a mistake to leave a body like that uncovered and in full view. It was eventually covered, it was eventually removed, but the body was handled badly and that's on the police and the Chief acknowledged it. You even agree with me that this was a police decision to leave the body there. That particular image is a really powerful symbol for all that pent-up anger.

I don't think your time frame is correct but I am the first to admit that I don't have all of the facts of the incident yet. I am looking forward to seeing a full report after it's done.

There probably aren't many prepping lessons left for me in this thread but I appreciate everyone's input on my questions :)
According to the forensics class I had in the a police academy in a homicide, even justifiable, the body should NOT be covered as the cover can contaminate the scene. Also the body technically belongs to the coroner and cannot be moved until the medical examiner's office signs off on it. ME's are not emergency first responders. They get to the scene when they get there. Some times the cops have to sit with the body for hours before it can be moved. Heck I went on a ride along and got to sit with a guy the blew his brains out as a civilian.

That is just the facts of life. Besides I don't think it mattered to Michael brown.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by NamelessStain » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:25 am

The only problem is facts don't impede mob mentality.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Crakkerjakk » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:19 pm

Eh, what you need for an indictment is a) "Officer Wilson did in fact shoot Brown", and b) "somebody or something implies that the shooting may not have been justified.". That is pretty much all you need for PC for an indictment from any competent prosecutor, and the fact that it's taking this long is... Sketchy.

Once at trail of course, you can fight it out about whether there's sufficient evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Officer Wilson wasn't justified in shooting Brown. But a grand jury isn't where you figure out what the truth (or even just what can be proved) is. That's the trial. Grand jury is just "okay, what is the prosecution's story about what happened, is it backed up by any evidence whatsoever, and is that story a crime?" So, like I said. Bit sketchy that everything is taking so long.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by NamelessStain » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:42 pm

Last time I checked, grand juries get evidence from a prosecutor and they decide if there is enough evidence to continue to an indictment.

If the prosecutor has weak evidence, for example the Duke Lacrosse player rape case, they waste time, money, and resources. In the Duke case, the prosecutor was also accused of attempting to promote his own career with the indictment. Not even sure if he is still a lawyer.
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