Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protests

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Stercutus » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:21 am

Fortitudine wrote:
lokifz1 wrote:If the Officer was on duty he can legally walk up to anybody he wants and talk to them.
This.

On or off duty, a police officer can approach and/or talk to anyone, for any reason. That doesn't mean that the citizen has to answer any questions, or converse with the officer in any way.

I don't understand why demonstrations like those in the St. Louis area are always focused on the shooting death of violent criminals. There are (very) many instances where police officers have abused their authority and blatantly violated citizens' constitutional rights.

So why hook your wagon to the violent thug when there are so many good battles to fight?
Why indeed? I am thinking that St. Louis is only a short step or two away from becoming the next Detroit. A big community explosion of violence to what looks like a well justified police shooting could really get the ball rolling.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by crypto » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:11 pm

No, its nothing like Detroit. Really.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by woodsghost » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:16 pm

Fortitudine wrote:
lokifz1 wrote:If the Officer was on duty he can legally walk up to anybody he wants and talk to them.
This.

On or off duty, a police officer can approach and/or talk to anyone, for any reason. That doesn't mean that the citizen has to answer any questions, or converse with the officer in any way.

I don't understand why demonstrations like those in the St. Louis area are always focused on the shooting death of violent criminals. There are (very) many instances where police officers have abused their authority and blatantly violated citizens' constitutional rights.

So why hook your wagon to the violent thug when there are so many good battles to fight?
You need "focusing events." Guns and deaths are great focusing events unless those deaths are super numerous. Then you need special deaths or special numbers of deaths.

Frankly, we are a rather jaded society.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by crypto » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:06 pm

Honestly, the 2 dead people were only a focal point for a protest that is now larger than that. It's about police militarization, overreach, and racial profiling now. And its apparently bigger than just STL, given that there's been protests in multiple cities over this, and that "hands up dont shoot" is all over the place now.

Please, PLEASE note that I am only relaying this information to tell you why people are in the streets, and it is neither an advocation nor repudiation of those reasons. I absolutely do not wish to engage in a political debate over whether or not a protest should be occurring.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by yummbrains » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:09 pm

Fortitudine wrote:...

I don't understand why demonstrations like those in the St. Louis area are always focused on the shooting death of violent criminals. There are (very) many instances where police officers have abused their authority and blatantly violated citizens' constitutional rights.
Hi Fortitudine, which shootings do you mean, w/r/t the shooting death of violent criminals? Have the recent victims been found to be violent criminals or do you mean other incidents?

I don't really want to get involved in a discussion about this topic if it isn't directly related to preparedness, but I am just curious if more info came to light about the victims.

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Steve74 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:50 pm

I have no idea why people keep protesting if a young criminal gets shot by an officer.

There was a homeless guy, he got shot in his back for no reason. No protests.

A latino guy got stomped by officers, just for refusing giving his ID to them. He died. No protests.

A guy sold cigarettes on the street. He had no license for that, but I think it's not that of a serious crime. He got choked, he died. No protests.

And so on.

But if someone robs a store, attacks an officer and gets shot. Protests for a month?

A criminal shot at an officer, then the officer shot back and the criminal got killed. Protests.

Seriously. Wtf. :?

Just because criminals are 17-18, they are still criminals. They are not "little innocent children". :roll:

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by crypto » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:14 pm

In short, the people protesting have a deep, deep amount of mistrust of the police and do not trust what's in the reports. The protestors are placing much more credence in witness testimony by the deceased's friends than they are in the accounts given by the police department.

This 'started' with the ferguson shooting, and caused a rift so deep that people are openly accusing the police of fabricating the evidence in the second shooting, and are going word by word through the incident report nitpicking it apart and identifying discrepancies in it.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by LJ126 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:27 pm

Phoenix David wrote:
The officer, who was not injured, returned fire, shooting 17 times and fatally wounding the man, Dotson said.
17 times? That seems a bit excessive to me. How many hit?
Shooting at a moving assailant, who's shooting back? This tends to increase the number of rounds fired, given that the officer too is moving, probably behind less than ideal cover, and is experiencing a whole lot of adrenaline, and all of this is occurring after dark. About 1/2 of these 17 hit, the one ending the fight landing on the assailant's head. The totality of the others (without the head injury) would've likely been fatal also.

In short, that's not bad at all. Remember, paper targets generally don't move and don't pose a significant threat.

And for an additional side note: If you shoot at someone, you should expect that they might shoot back. Especially if they're the police.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by woodsghost » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:45 pm

I was recently reading that police hits are usually in the 10%-20% range. If the officer was up to 47%-53% hits, that is incredible shooting!
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by lokifz1 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:21 pm

Nm
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by shrapnel » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:29 pm

lokifz1 wrote:
crypto wrote:In short, the people protesting have a deep, deep amount of mistrust of the police and do not trust what's in the reports. The protestors are placing much more credence in witness testimony by the deceased's friends than they are in the accounts given by the police department.

This 'started' with the ferguson shooting, and caused a rift so deep that people are openly accusing the police of fabricating the evidence in the second shooting, and are going word by word through the incident report nitpicking it apart and identifying discrepancies in it.

Its nothing new the lasting power of these protests comes from left wing groups and generations of welfare slugs.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Fortitudine » Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:00 pm

yummbrains wrote:Hi Fortitudine, which shootings do you mean, w/r/t the shooting death of violent criminals? Have the recent victims been found to be violent criminals or do you mean other incidents?

I don't really want to get involved in a discussion about this topic if it isn't directly related to preparedness, but I am just curious if more info came to light about the victims.
I was referring to Michael Brown and Vonderrit Myers. Brown robbed a convenience store and assaulted a police officer (Officer Wilson had a busted up face and orbital fracture from the assault), and Myers opened fire on an off-duty police officer (Myers' family denied this but gun powder residue was found on his hands and clothing).

These two shootings have been widely covered by the media, and both apparently triggered protests, riots, and looting in St. Louis.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by yummbrains » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:35 am

Fortitudine wrote:
yummbrains wrote:Hi Fortitudine, which shootings do you mean, w/r/t the shooting death of violent criminals? Have the recent victims been found to be violent criminals or do you mean other incidents?

I don't really want to get involved in a discussion about this topic if it isn't directly related to preparedness, but I am just curious if more info came to light about the victims.
I was referring to Michael Brown and Vonderrit Myers. Brown robbed a convenience store and assaulted a police officer (Officer Wilson had a busted up face and orbital fracture from the assault), and Myers opened fire on an off-duty police officer (Myers' family denied this but gun powder residue was found on his hands and clothing).

These two shootings have been widely covered by the media, and both apparently triggered protests, riots, and looting in St. Louis.
Hi, thanks, yes I'm familiar with the incidents but the investigations are not finished yet. I just wondered if new info had come to light. I did see that more forensic info came out on the Myers shooting this week. The only thing I know for sure about the Brown shooting is that his body was left in the street for several hours. That's a powerful image. The facts will eventually be established but leaving him in view like that was a huge mistake by the police.

Regardless of all that, how do you prepare for demonstrations possibly turning into riots, possibly spilling over into your neighborhood? Is there any data out there on crime rates on the outskirts of a rioting area? So for example, if we have riots in an urban area (real riots with looting and vandalism) do we know what the effects are 5 miles out, 10 miles out, etc? Also do we have data on how likely a demonstration is to turn into a riot?

I didn't try to find that information, it just came to mind as I was typing this. But in thinking about all of this, I don't see any kind of prepping that is much different than the prepping you would normally do. Maybe you are just on heightened alert if there are riots within 20 miles of you?

What do you guys think?

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by hondo » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:26 am

yummbrains wrote:
Hi, thanks, yes I'm familiar with the incidents but the investigations are not finished yet. I just wondered if new info had come to light. I did see that more forensic info came out on the Myers shooting this week. The only thing I know for sure about the Brown shooting is that his body was left in the street for several hours. That's a powerful image. The facts will eventually be established but leaving him in view like that was a huge mistake by the police.Regardless of all that, how do you prepare for demonstrations possibly turning into riots, possibly spilling over into your neighborhood? Is there any data out there on crime rates on the outskirts of a rioting area? So for example, if we have riots in an urban area (real riots with looting and vandalism) do we know what the effects are 5 miles out, 10 miles out, etc? Also do we have data on how likely a demonstration is to turn into a riot?

I didn't try to find that information, it just came to mind as I was typing this. But in thinking about all of this, I don't see any kind of prepping that is much different than the prepping you would normally do. Maybe you are just on heightened alert if there are riots within 20 miles of you?

What do you guys think?
First of all you are wrong, police called undertaker who works with them and his team responded and was on the scene within 45 minutes after the shooting but mass gathered and shots were fired so police told them to wait until is safe to remove the body, Browns father went around pleading with mass to let undertakers to remove his son body. Undertakers van was at scene all the time, even if they wanted to leave it was impossible. Bullet resistant vest is not part of standard undertaker equipment.

On the other note, effect depend on the proximity of the business, general crime rate in the neighborhood, you should plan accordingly also you need to count do you work in affected area? Do you need to travel through affected area in order to get to work or do shopping in general there is more than one route but you must keep in mind how many people are going to be forced to use that same route as in account in delays and gridlocks.

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by hondo » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:26 am

double post

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by dogbane » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:21 am

Fortitudine wrote:Officer Wilson had a busted up face and orbital fracture from the assault
Subsequent reports said that Wilson did not suffer an orbital fracture and that x-rays and photos purporting to depict the injury were not, in fact, Wilson.

"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~ Mark Twain.

ETA: From a preparedness point of view, I think it's important not to contribute to the problem by spreading dubious information.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Neptune Glory » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:26 am

yummbrains wrote: I don't really want to get involved in a discussion about this topic if it isn't directly related to preparedness....
I live in St. Louis County... more removed from this than Crypto (poor guy!), but still in the area. About ten miles from Ferguson.

As far as preparedness, we installed a home alarm on Friday (thankfully there was a promotion, no cost for equipment or installation). We're being careful about where we drive. I choose to be legally armed, my spouse does not but when she walks at night, our large dog is on a leash with her.

Other than the new alarm, it's situation normal. What else would Zombie Squad folks suggest, in terms of preparedness for this civil unrest?
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by EAFHR » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:55 am

I work in downtown St. Louis, near the government buildings, so appreciate any suggestions.

I hope the prosecutor times the release of the grand jury decision well, and perhaps even leaks that timing. I'm confident my company would close, or tell us to work from home, if they have an idea of when there might be riots.

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Stercutus » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:03 am

yummbrains wrote:
(pointless noise deleted)

Regardless of all that, how do you prepare for demonstrations possibly turning into riots, possibly spilling over into your neighborhood? Is there any data out there on crime rates on the outskirts of a rioting area? So for example, if we have riots in an urban area (real riots with looting and vandalism) do we know what the effects are 5 miles out, 10 miles out, etc? Also do we have data on how likely a demonstration is to turn into a riot?

I didn't try to find that information, it just came to mind as I was typing this. But in thinking about all of this, I don't see any kind of prepping that is much different than the prepping you would normally do. Maybe you are just on heightened alert if there are riots within 20 miles of you?

What do you guys think?
If I am 10-20 miles from a riot then the effect will be zero unless they pull law enforcement or other resources from my area to go assist with the riot. This will make my area have less effective policing and could potentially allow for more crimes of opportunity and greatly increase first responder response times. The response times are the more concerning of the two issues as actual crimes of opportunity are actually pretty rare (although the longer it goes on the likelihood increases).

If I am five miles or less then it is more problematic. I could potentially be in an impact zone for an out of control arson fire, car chase, stray rifle round and all the other associated idiocy that people do in riots.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Stercutus » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:07 am

crypto wrote:No, its nothing like Detroit. Really.

Not that at all hunh?

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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/10/15/te ... =obnetwork
Ballistic evidence shows Myers fired three shots before his gun jammed, Dotson said. Police said they recovered the gun, which was reported stolen on Sept. 26.

Roorda said the gun in the photo was an exact match for the gun found on Myers after his death.

"This is a distinct-looking gun, not one seen on the streets very often," he said.

Roorda called political leaders who blamed the police for Myers' death "irresponsible and despicable."
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by crypto » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:57 am

LOL yeah, I'm with you. They recovered the gun, the casings, and recovered all 3 fired bullets. The lab report came back yesterday and the late Mr. Meyers had powder residue on his hands, in his pocket and on the waistband of his pants.

That doesn't mean we're like detroit by any means though.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by LJ126 » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:14 am

EAFHR wrote:I work in downtown St. Louis, near the government buildings, so appreciate any suggestions.

I hope the prosecutor times the release of the grand jury decision well, and perhaps even leaks that timing. I'm confident my company would close, or tell us to work from home, if they have an idea of when there might be riots.
Don't stress about it. The likelihood of rioting and ransacking in that part of the city is pretty low, and the police would not be as tolerant to it as they're being elsewhere in the city. The PD is working long shifts to ensure adequate manpower in case something does pop off.

You may wish to begin working on a work "bug-in" plan, and potentially an emergency get-home plan. Start networking now.
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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by Gingerbread Man » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:22 am

I poked around and read the reports but in only says he had a 9mm Smith and Wesson. Can someone confirm what model it was as the police are saying it wasn't a "common" gun you see on the street.

I think it looks like a Performance Shop 5906 with a barrel bushing, but I'm probably am very wrong.

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Re: Another Police Shooting in St. Louis Triggers New Protes

Post by yummbrains » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:47 am

hondo wrote: ... First of all you are wrong, ....
The Chief already apologized for the fact that he was in the street for too long.
Stercutus wrote:(pointless noise deleted)
None taken. ;)
Stercutus wrote:If I am 10-20 miles from a riot then the effect will be zero unless they pull law enforcement or other resources from my area to go assist with the riot. This will make my area have less effective policing and could potentially allow for more crimes of opportunity and greatly increase first responder response times.
Good point, I hadn't thought of that. Our area has longer response times anyway, so it's not top of mind out here.
Neptune Glory wrote:As far as preparedness, we installed a home alarm on Friday (thankfully there was a promotion, no cost for equipment or installation). We're being careful about where we drive. I choose to be legally armed, my spouse does not but when she walks at night, our large dog is on a leash with her.

Other than the new alarm, it's situation normal. What else would Zombie Squad folks suggest, in terms of preparedness for this civil unrest?
I carry non-lethal with me too, like pepper spray. Mostly because I don't want to have to use a gun if I can get away with pepper spray.

I've been thinking about a protocol specifically for nearby civil unrest. This is a blank page for me so I still need to figure out what the protocol would be and what exactly would trigger the protocol. The only things that come to mind are 1. being in-house as much as possible 2. keeping things lit up at night 3. locking all car doors and out buildings at night 4. increasing ammo levels and keeping guns loaded. Other than that I think it's all prep as usual.

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